2007 DURAMAX wiped by my 2002 7.3

[David85]

parkland, I suspect that the steel wires may be playing a role in the hydrogen extraction. There is going to be some of the oxygen staying in the water to combine with the iron to form all that rust. It would be interesting to see what (if any) difference in performance there will be when you rebuild the unit. For controlling the hydrogen flow, I would couple it to a boost pressure signal from the intake, and use that to control a voltage regulator at the H generator.

[rmilchman]

Had some minor surgery yesterday and a sign in the OR caught my eye. Oxygen in use no open flame. Made me think of something.

If EGT's range from 600 - 1200 and we pump hydrogen in through the intake. Is there a risk of combustion when hitting the turbo?

[F250_]

Originally Posted by rmilchman

Had some minor surgery yesterday and a sign in the OR caught my eye. Oxygen in use no open flame. Made me think of something.

If EGT's range from 600 - 1200 and we pump hydrogen in through the intake. Is there a risk of combustion when hitting the turbo?

Not really. Air is one of the best "thermal insulators" around. Remember, the EGT's are being measured on the exhaust side of the turbo, and not on the compressor side which is where the Brown's Gas is being injected. Also, even for a system flowing 100 liters per hour of BGas, our intakes are pulling in somewhere between 200 and 400 cfm (I believe that is a decent approximation). Now, let's do a little math...

200 cfm = 200 cubic feet per minute = 339,800 liters per hour

So... if we add the 100 liters per hour of BGas,
100 / 339800 = 0.000294, which is .0294% of the total air intake flow

Obviously, at higher intake flow rates, the ratio of BGas is even smaller.

With the BGas being such a small percentage of the total intake flow, the temperature of the ambient air being takin into the intake system will far outweigh any increased temperature of the BGas from the generator, but even more importantly, the concentration of hydrogen in the mixed intake flow at that point is not at an explosive level.

That brings up another interesting point about the power available from this design.... only a little increase in hydrogen can make a huge difference in combustion efficiency.

Now... regarding air flow measurements. It will be best to avoid CFM flow measurements due to the seasonal and daily fluctuations in air density. The BEST unit to use for control is the air MASS, which is why I brought up this exact point early on. If we can tie the MAF sensor output as an input for voltage/amperage control, then what parkland is talking about in terms of a consistent BGas:fuel ratio becomes a reality. Like parkland, though, I do not know how to get that piece of the puzzle accomplished.

[Kwikkordead]

7.3 PSD's have no MAF. All MAF's are mounted on the air cleaner housing exit. They measure the air mass entering the engine regardless of pressure.
The MAP's on the 7.3s measure absolute manifold pressure, regardless of how much air mass is entering the engine.
I think that the easiest way for us "back yard" engineers to get something put together for the 7.3 that would be relatively safe, reliable, and accurate is to cobble something up that triggers a relay to turn the bucket on at any manifold pressure above, say, 4 psi. That way it would cut off if you are coasting down a hill, or turn the engine off.
You might even consider a dual range type that would turn on a second or even a third one if the boost is over 10 psi.
That sort of electrical load would call for an upgrade to the charging system, I think.

[F250_]

Thanks for that detail, Dan. I like the multi-stage approach you talked about, too, because it then begins to approximate what parkland and I were talking about.

About the charging system, though, I believe that that is going to depend upon how we end up fashioning the electrodes (plates, wires, how many, etc.), because that ">100 liters per hour" system I linked to before is reportedly pulling less than 10 amps. Other systems I've seen all seem to be a little higher in amp pull for less BGas generation. Only exceptions are the really small ones that are pulling 3-5 amps, but only generating 10-30 liters per hour of product.

I have also reviewed, briefly, several sets of published "instructions" for building our own units, and they all recommend very highly that we configure the electrodes (count, area, spacing) such that we stay under a total of 15 amps to avoid boiling in the generator. However, that issue can be overcome with a larger container that holds more water (larger heat sink), but if the commercial systems are running at 10 amps or less for 100 liters per hour, we should be able to do some trial and error tests to get similar results.

On the other hand, though, I would love an excuse to get a 200 AMP alternator, but don't have a reason ..... yet.

[Kwikkordead]

I better read this whole thread again. I still have plans to do this, but have precious little time to devote to it.
Going to begin by going to the local welding supply outlet and see if I can get some heavy SS rod to make a grid out of.

Question for you welders on the board here: Can a basic wire feed welder be used to construct a grid?
What I have is a wire feed that does pretty good for welding up SS exhaust, but that's a whole different grade of metal than the inert stuff that needs to be used.
(My need for education in metallurgy is showing here )
Or do I need to get some rod and use my oxy acetylene torch?
Would either one of those work at all?

[F250_]

Go for it, Dan. I am much less literate on welding than you are, so I can't help on that front.

Regarding the controls options for variable gas generation, though, I was just talkign to another one of the engineers here in my office, and he suggested the potential for using the tachometer signal feeding into a variable potentiometer to vary voltage as RPM goes up or down. One thiing we're going to have to quantify, though, is the generation rate for our generator as it relates to incoming DC voltage. Once that is known, and the range of signal output from the tech, then getting someone with 12V Dc electronics knowledge (again, not me) to help define the hardware configuration would be the final step for the controls package.

As for as electrode design is concerned, I am planning on trying the coil approach with stainless wire around some type of lexan or fiberglass structure.

[David85]

I'm a wielder by trade. You can use any stainless wire you want, but the wire from a MIG wielder will be more flimsy than TIG rod, and if you wrap the wire on a tube in a coil, you could end up with self induction, which will increase the resistance in the circuit, so less electricity is going to the electrolysis. Also, stainless is not completely immune to corrosion, just more resistant, the thicker the wire, the longer it will last in the corrosive electrolyte. If you opt for thicker material, ask specifically for TIG rod (available in up to 1/4"), stick wielding electrodes have a flux that will make a mess of everything.

There are also different grades of stainless available, food grade having the better corrosion resistance. But for just trying it out, anything will work, even coat hangers, it would seem!

I just looked up the flash point of hydrogen, 1022F (I think we're safe in the intake).


EDIT: Oh, and BTW, you can solder stainless steel just not as easily as copper or brass. Use a small butane or propane torch, an a stronger flux.

[leekingen]

hay
how about a vacuum control valve
to control bgas to intake?

[lgspitler]

This idea of injecting hydrogen into the intake air is all new to me. I had considered propane but figured the cost of the propane would offset a lot of the increase in fuel economy. I assume you get a hydrogen and oxygen mix out of your "generator". Is that what you're burning? Any idea what kind of pressure is in the 1/4 inch line? I have a friend that sells compressed gasses including hydrogen. I was thinking a small tank and regulator would be any easy way to try this out but that would be pure hydrogen. Anybody know if pure hydrogen would work or do you need the oxygen mix. I am after fuel economy as the truck already has lots of power and most of it's miles are empty anyway. Any suggestions would be appreciated.

[parkland]

I'm designing a system right now, with a small diaphram pump (24$), small heater core (being used for cooling) and making the new generator from 4" pvc sewer pipe, 1/4" walls....

The pvc pipe generator, (the pipe) will be about 8 feet long, and fit perfectly under the drivers side of the truck. Tucked under the floor. Look under there....see what i mean?!

I'm gluing both ends with the thread-cap thingy, (so you can screw the cap on), so that to clean er out, just take off both caps and take the garden hose to er.

As for the electrodes, they are gonna be made from threaded bar, (1/4"), and i'm gonna have 8 of them (4 +, 4-) running the length of the pipe, in a circular arrangement. Inside the pipe, pieces of pvc plastic, with 8 holes drilled into them, will hold the bars apart.

The 8 bars will stick through 1 end cap, so that i can remove the entire electrode package for cleaning/inspection.

There will be 3 liquid/gas hoses, 1 on each end, and 1 in the middle.

The pump will be under the hood, and pushing water into an inlet on the saide of the generating pipe. The pump will be sucking (through the cooling rad),from a resevoir.

When bubbles are made in the generator, they will float up 1 of the 3 gas/water(depending on how the truck is sitting) tubes, and be separated in the "under the hood resevoir", and the water will be pumped back, while the gas will go to the intake.

Why such a big pvc generator? Why so many, so long of rods?

Simple. Cooler, less baking soda, Guessing more efficeint production. More rod to rot through.

The resevoir under the hood will also be for topping up water.(or adding baking soda)

I hope trying to explain this is inspiring someone...

[Kwikkordead]

David85, just the information that I was looking for. Thanks.
Parkland that sounds like a good way to do it. I'll be very interested in hearing how it works.

[David85]

I did a quick slap together generator last night using some scrap stainless steel (sheet metal) and an ice cream bucket. All I can say, is this **** works!!

Baking soda had a BIG affect on the rate of electrolysis, but the distance between electrodes also had a big effect. There was a large amount of surface area in the generator, but the vast majority of brown gas was produced where the electrodes were closest together, about 1/8 of an inch. Had some fun exploding some of the bubbles with a small torch, but then the explosions started getting louder, and i figured i better call it a day, (neighbors might think its a gun or something).

I'm toying with the idea of making a better setup out of some stainless pipe, with the case itself being one of the electrodes, and an inner pipe being the other electrode. This would allow a good surface area, and a small amount of water, it would also be more explosion worthy.

The other way would be to make several stacks of stainless sheet metal and set it up like a battery with opposing electrodes along the length of the stack, this setup might be a little easier for me to make, I'll have to check what materials I have lying around...........

[parkland]

The pipe in pipe concept sounds cool, but i like my "removeable" reactor concept too,


SOMETHING TOO REMEMBER:

More baking soda = more hydrogen
Closer rods = more hydrogen
More amps = more hydrgoen.

HOWEVER, no matter what the scenario, i'm 99.9% sure that your getting X amount of hydrogen for every amp draw.

I.E., Any desing will work as long as you can meet the bare requirments, hence a reason for going overkill...

[bobracing]

...generator from 4" pvc sewer pipe, 1/4" walls....
The pvc pipe generator, (the pipe) will be about 8 feet long,...

First thing that hit me on this is BOMB. I'm not sure the ends will have enough relief if the tube ignites. IIRC pvc is good for about 200psi and after that shatters into many little tiny piece of sharp shrapnel and this under you feet.
Just my thoughts