The T19 has a higher first and is synchro'd in all gears. But a rare T19 that came in heavy fords, like dump truck/ fire truck sized fords, had a 6.32 first gear that was still synchro'd. Wouldn't mind having that in my '79.
Check out the Novak Jeep conversion website, great info. Really cool people that run that little company too. My brother works there
__________________
1991 Bronco; 4.9L; Mazda 5 speed; BW1356, 8.8 open rear; 44TTB open front, 3.55; daily driver
1985 F-250 4x4; 300; C6; BW1345, Ford sterling semi float posi rear; 44HD TTB open front; 3.55; runs
1979 F-250 4x4; 400, NP435; NP205; Dana 60 full float open rear; Dana 44HD open front, project truck
You have an automatic though. If you have a stick with low range you CAN idle up really steep hills with no throttle.
Ah, I didn't think about that. I did the math on my first gear one time. I think it was somewhere north of 11.
That's why I want a manual with granny. I hate automatics.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freaksh0w
An automatic 'idling' up a hill is more about what RPM the throttle is set at than anything. It will have to be enough for the torque converter to engage somewhat.
BTW, I think first gear in an NP435 is 6.69:1. 6.68 or 6.69:1, never can remember. It's nearly the same as the rear gear ratio for my 1950 Ford 8N.. 6.66:1 or 6.68:1.
How do you do the math again? All of my transmission information is on the other computer. I thought my first gear was supposed to be north of 11, but after reading these comments I'm thinking I'm wrong.
Your first gear is probably somewhere between 3.3x:1 and 2.9x:1. There is really no way to calculate it, it's just how they come. My NP435 is something like 1st: 6.68:1, 2nd: 3.3x:1, 3rd: 1.7x:1, 4th is 1:1.
I could change my 3.50 rear out for a 4.11, and my gear ratios in the transmission would still be the same.
__________________ 1986 F-150 5.0 EFI XLT Lariat 4x4 NP435/NP208/9" 3.50
"Custom Exhaust" and leaf spring overloads
31x10.50 15" Nothing special, but it's a damn good truck.
You have mechanical gear ratios in your transmission just like a manual obviously, but because of the torque converter your first gear is actually a 'range of mushiness' as I would describe it. And since your torque converter clutch never engages in first there is no mechanical fixed gear ratio between the engine crank and the tires in first. It's a range and it all depends on what the fluid in the torque converter is doing. Even when impeller and turbine speeds are approaching equality and torque multiplication is in the torque converter is no longer happening there is still about 10 for 15 percent of 'slush'. That's the best an automatic transmission, or rather a torque converter, can do until the torque converter clutch engages, which never happens until you get up to something like 40 MPH or so.
So if you figure that your rearend is 4.10 and your E4OD first is 2.71 then if you had a mechanical link between your engine and tranny your total gear reduction in first would be 11.1, like you were saying. But you don't have a mechanical link you have a hydraulic link. With a torque converter your total gearing in first is anywhere from about 22 to 24 to 1 down to about 12.5 or so to one. Depending upon what the fluid in the torque converter is doing and if the stator in the torque converter is spinning or stationary. Your gearing is actually adjustable depending upon a lot of things. Power of engine, load on the truck, angle of blades on the impeller and turbine, whether the stator is overrunning, how viscous the ATF is at the moment because of temperature. A lot of things.
By the way, I have the factory service manual from 1991 and it says when you do a stall test with an E4OD and a 4.9L your RPMs should stop between 1485 and 1845. Just thought you might find that interesting.
__________________
1991 Bronco; 4.9L; Mazda 5 speed; BW1356, 8.8 open rear; 44TTB open front, 3.55; daily driver
1985 F-250 4x4; 300; C6; BW1345, Ford sterling semi float posi rear; 44HD TTB open front; 3.55; runs
1979 F-250 4x4; 400, NP435; NP205; Dana 60 full float open rear; Dana 44HD open front, project truck
You have mechanical gear ratios in your transmission just like a manual obviously, but because of the torque converter your first gear is actually a 'range of mushiness' as I would describe it. And since your torque converter clutch never engages in first there is no mechanical fixed gear ratio between the engine crank and the tires in first. It's a range and it all depends on what the fluid in the torque converter is doing. Even when impeller and turbine speeds are approaching equality and torque multiplication is in the torque converter is no longer happening there is still about 10 for 15 percent of 'slush'. That's the best an automatic transmission, or rather a torque converter, can do until the torque converter clutch engages, which never happens until you get up to something like 40 MPH or so.
So if you figure that your rearend is 4.10 and your E4OD first is 2.71 then if you had a mechanical link between your engine and tranny your total gear reduction in first would be 11.1, like you were saying. But you don't have a mechanical link you have a hydraulic link. With a torque converter your total gearing in first is anywhere from about 22 to 24 to 1 down to about 12.5 or so to one. Depending upon what the fluid in the torque converter is doing and if the stator in the torque converter is spinning or stationary. Your gearing is actually adjustable depending upon a lot of things. Power of engine, load on the truck, angle of blades on the impeller and turbine, whether the stator is overrunning, how viscous the ATF is at the moment because of temperature. A lot of things.
By the way, I have the factory service manual from 1991 and it says when you do a stall test with an E4OD and a 4.9L your RPMs should stop between 1485 and 1845. Just thought you might find that interesting.
Wow, lots of good information. I had to re-read a few parts twice to understand. One thing though; are you saying with an automatic, even though I have a 11.--+ first gear, I still have to rev it up due to the converter?
Quote:
Originally Posted by 91Bronc300
By the way, I have the factory service manual from 1991 and it says when you do a stall test with an E4OD and a 4.9L your RPMs should stop between 1485 and 1845. Just thought you might find that interesting.
I didn't fully understand this one either. What does this mean exactly? Is that where the torque converter starts to kick in or something?
are you saying with an automatic, even though I have a 11.--+ first gear, I still have to rev it up due to the converter?
Yes, that's the difference between an automatic and a manual. For the most part you can throw out the differences between the actual transmissions themselves. The automatic uses planetary gears and hydraulic clutch packs, the manual uses helical gears, yada yada. But they are both essentially just gearboxes. The real difference is in the torque converter of an automatic and the clutch of a manual. Say you have the same gear ratios you do now, but with a clutch instead of a torque converter. No matter how much torque is comming off of the crankshaft, the total gear ratio remains 11 to 1 because it is all mechanical. No gas and you put along, some gas and you get going, WOT and you spin the tires, hit the brakes and you stall the engine, because it's a mechanical link and the gear ratio in first will ALWAYS be 11 to 1.
In an automatic you still have the same gear ratio in the axle, same gear ratio in the transmission, but now you have a torque converter. Where the clutch in a manual is either, ON or OFF, a torque converter is actually a variable transmission in and of itself. And the 'gear ratio' of this transmission (torque converter) will vary based on the amount of torque comming off the engine and the resistence supplied by the truck and it's load. And also by some variable design factors built into the specific torque converter.
When you stop completely with a manual you are still at some fixed state of gear reduction, say 11 to 1. And since your tires are at zero speed, zero time 11 is still zero so your engine has to stall. But in an automatic even though you are still in gear when you are completely stopped, what your torque converter does is slips 100%, or you could say, your gear ratio goes to infinity to one. So your tires are at zero speed and you are in gear. But since your gear is 'infinity to one' your engine can keep turning. You are really just churning and heating up ATF is all you're doing.
Now when you let off the brake and the only resistance to moving is the weight of the truck, that little bit of churning force in the torque converter, which is small because not much torque is coming off the engine, is now enough to make the engine start creeping along. At this point the 'gearing' in the torque converter is about 2 to 1 or a little bit higher. Thus a 23 or 24 to one final gear ratio. If you hit the gas more, more torque comes off the engine (or impeller, it's the engine-side of the TC), and more torque is transferred to the turbine (tranny side of TC), and by the design of a torque converter the gear ratio is now going numerically lower, the two halves of the TC are become more equal in speed. (The impeller, or engine side, is always going to be turning faster until the torque converter clutch kicks in. Without a torque converter clutch the best you can hope for is the turbine, or tranny side, going 85% to 90% of the engine side, thus the 15% 'slush')
Now the exact same thing is happening when you are starting from a dead stop with a heavy load. You may think "but if I have all that gear reduction I should start out GREAT with a heavy load, but instead the engine revvs higher before it even moves". Well, you only get the really low gear reduction with very light torque coming off the engine. You need more torque to get the engine moving and so you hit the gas harder but by the nature of design of a TC gear reduction is getting less, because you are adding torque. Granted gear reduction is till more than 1 to 1, you are getting SOME gear reduction. That's why the first gear in an automatic is so much higher than in a manual. So that's why there is such a difference in starting out empty and starting out with a load with an automatic. A higher resistance cause I greater need for engine torque which causes a much bigger slipping effect in the TC which neccesitates a higher engine speed before you get moving.
I hope that at least sort of answers your question.
A stall test is when have the engine idling, put the transmission is drive, or first, FIRMLY apply the brakes, the push the gas pedal to the floor. Your engine should rev up to the specified RPM range and refuse to go any farther. This is where you reach equilibrium between maximum engine torque and the refusal of the turbine to turn. It's used to diagnost TC or tranny problems. It's very hard on things though and you probably shouldn't do it. But when you hear about stall ratings for torque converters, that is what they are talking about. But what they don't tell you is stall rating for the EXACT same torque converter is different depending upon the power of the engine.
__________________
1991 Bronco; 4.9L; Mazda 5 speed; BW1356, 8.8 open rear; 44TTB open front, 3.55; daily driver
1985 F-250 4x4; 300; C6; BW1345, Ford sterling semi float posi rear; 44HD TTB open front; 3.55; runs
1979 F-250 4x4; 400, NP435; NP205; Dana 60 full float open rear; Dana 44HD open front, project truck
Yes, that's the difference between an automatic and a manual. For the most part you can throw out the differences between the actual transmissions themselves. The automatic uses planetary gears and hydraulic clutch packs, the manual uses helical gears, yada yada. But they are both essentially just gearboxes. The real difference is in the torque converter of an automatic and the clutch of a manual. Say you have the same gear ratios you do now, but with a clutch instead of a torque converter. No matter how much torque is comming off of the crankshaft, the total gear ratio remains 11 to 1 because it is all mechanical. No gas and you put along, some gas and you get going, WOT and you spin the tires, hit the brakes and you stall the engine, because it's a mechanical link and the gear ratio in first will ALWAYS be 11 to 1.
In an automatic you still have the same gear .......
I can't thank you enough for taking the time and effort to write all that. How long did that take you?
I understood about half of it. I'm going to have to re-read it. You helped me understand how my transmission operates. I pulled a heavy load one time (more than 6,000 lbs) and my motor had to rev to 2,000 before moving.
Thanks again, you're a good man for writing all of that. Jeez.
Sure thing Bill. I like talking about stuff like that (that's why we're all here right?), the typing is just a necessary evil LOL. It probably took a half hour or so.
If you want to read a really good book on auto and TC function I would recommend Turbo Hydra-Matic 350 Handbook by Ron Sessions. It's about a GM automatic but it's the best book I know that describes the theory. Or better yet, only drive manuals from here on out so you don't have to bother knowing about automatics at all LOL
__________________
1991 Bronco; 4.9L; Mazda 5 speed; BW1356, 8.8 open rear; 44TTB open front, 3.55; daily driver
1985 F-250 4x4; 300; C6; BW1345, Ford sterling semi float posi rear; 44HD TTB open front; 3.55; runs
1979 F-250 4x4; 400, NP435; NP205; Dana 60 full float open rear; Dana 44HD open front, project truck
Sure thing Bill. I like talking about stuff like that (that's why we're all here right?), the typing is just a necessary evil LOL. It probably took a half hour or so.
If you want to read a really good book on auto and TC function I would recommend Turbo Hydra-Matic 350 Handbook by Ron Sessions. It's about a GM automatic but it's the best book I know that describes the theory. Or better yet, only drive manuals from here on out so you don't have to bother knowing about automatics at all LOL
How about a ZF-5?
Quote:
Originally Posted by 91Bronc300
2,000 RPM is a little bit high to get a load moving in a truck. You sure your ATF is topped off?
Don't have a clue. It wasn't dead-on two grand, but it had to rev to two grand before the load started to move with speed. I'll put it that way. Past that it did fine.
Yes, that's the difference between an automatic and a manual. For the most part you can throw out the differences between the actual transmissions themselves. The automatic uses planetary gears and hydraulic clutch packs, the manual uses helical gears, yada yada. But they are both essentially just gearboxes. The real difference is in the torque converter of an automatic and the clutch of a manual. Say you have the same gear ratios you do now, but with a clutch instead of a torque converter. No matter how much torque is comming off of the crankshaft, the total gear ratio remains 11 to 1 because it is all mechanical. No gas and you put along, some gas and you get going, WOT and you spin the tires, hit the brakes and you stall the engine, because it's a mechanical link and the gear ratio in first will ALWAYS be 11 to 1.
In an automatic you still have the same gear ratio in the axle, same gear ratio in the transmission, but now you have a torque converter. Where the clutch in a manual is either, ON or OFF, a torque converter is actually a variable transmission in and of itself. And the 'gear ratio' of this transmission (torque converter) will vary based on the amount of torque comming off the engine and the resistence supplied by the truck and it's load. And also by some variable design factors built into the specific torque converter.
When you stop completely with a manual you are still at some fixed state of gear reduction, say 11 to 1. And since your tires are at zero speed, zero time 11 is still zero so your engine has to stall. But in an automatic even though you are still in gear when you are completely stopped, what your torque converter does is slips 100%, or you could say, your gear ratio goes to infinity to one. So your tires are at zero speed and you are in gear. But since your gear is 'infinity to one' your engine can keep turning. You are really just churning and heating up ATF is all you're doing.
Now when you let off the brake and the only resistance to moving is the weight of the truck, that little bit of churning force in the torque converter, which is small because not much torque is coming off the engine, is now enough to make the engine start creeping along. At this point the 'gearing' in the torque converter is about 2 to 1 or a little bit higher. Thus a 23 or 24 to one final gear ratio. If you hit the gas more, more torque comes off the engine (or impeller, it's the engine-side of the TC), and more torque is transferred to the turbine (tranny side of TC), and by the design of a torque converter the gear ratio is now going numerically lower, the two halves of the TC are become more equal in speed. (The impeller, or engine side, is always going to be turning faster until the torque converter clutch kicks in. Without a torque converter clutch the best you can hope for is the turbine, or tranny side, going 85% to 90% of the engine side, thus the 15% 'slush')
Now the exact same thing is happening when you are starting from a dead stop with a heavy load. You may think "but if I have all that gear reduction I should start out GREAT with a heavy load, but instead the engine revvs higher before it even moves". Well, you only get the really low gear reduction with very light torque coming off the engine. You need more torque to get the engine moving and so you hit the gas harder but by the nature of design of a TC gear reduction is getting less, because you are adding torque. Granted gear reduction is till more than 1 to 1, you are getting SOME gear reduction. That's why the first gear in an automatic is so much higher than in a manual. So that's why there is such a difference in starting out empty and starting out with a load with an automatic. A higher resistance cause I greater need for engine torque which causes a much bigger slipping effect in the TC which neccesitates a higher engine speed before you get moving.
I hope that at least sort of answers your question.
A stall test is when have the engine idling, put the transmission is drive, or first, FIRMLY apply the brakes, the push the gas pedal to the floor. Your engine should rev up to the specified RPM range and refuse to go any farther. This is where you reach equilibrium between maximum engine torque and the refusal of the turbine to turn. It's used to diagnost TC or tranny problems. It's very hard on things though and you probably shouldn't do it. But when you hear about stall ratings for torque converters, that is what they are talking about. But what they don't tell you is stall rating for the EXACT same torque converter is different depending upon the power of the engine.
That is a dead on, clear, understandable explanation. I spent about 2 years realy trying to understand an automatics operation. What finaly made me figure it out was the simple OD they used to mount behind the 303 3spd manual.
The ZF is a great trany bill. WIth your 4.11 gears I belive it would do well. I had 3.55 gears in my 96 and the M5OD and found it to be way too doggy with a trailer or heavy load. The ZF is the cream of the "windsor" truck tranys and is a beast to locate affordably. If you tow less then 3k ususaly I would recomend the M5OD due to the lower cost and lighter usage. If you tow daily, I would say get an old NP435 or T18 due to the superior ratios and strength in hard usage. A ZF is a good compromise. Though pricy.
If you buy a ZF make them give you a 1 year warrenty. They had top end oiling probloms. Like to burn up the OD and reverse prematurely. Change the ATF in it and add 1 qt of lucas oil stabalizer. If you do this it will help carry the oil up and lube the gears and bearings. No one I know who has added lucas to the ZF has ever fried a gear. Everyone I know that has not has replaced a tranny.
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LOL
I'm starting to feel pretty proud of myself now 
