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Old 07-14-2007, 02:03 AM
fluxcore fluxcore is offline
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Stanadyne rotary IPs on svo.

Hi everyone. This is my first post here. I am a member of 4 other forums (3 biofuel and 1 diesel). I was referred to this site by a posting on www.biodiesel.infopop.cc

Anyway, I'm very interested in svo. I've been studying svo for about 3-4 years now.

I own an 88 F-250 7.3 IDI. When I first bought the truck, I new that its Stanadyne IP wasn't the best choice for svo conversion, but I was under the impression that if it were treated properly it would be okay.

A few days ago, I spoke to a local lady mech who basically told me that these Stanadyne IPs were doomed to die if run on svo. She mentioned a hot starting problem and said svo use was "high maintenance".

I've heard of people having problems running veggie through these IPs before, but I've also heard success stories too.

If anyone here has any experience running the Ford diesels on veggie, please let me know how it was/is for you.

Thanks in advance!
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Old 07-14-2007, 09:05 AM
willbd willbd is offline
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I am running WVO on a 95 PSD. I start and stop on Diesel. No issues. My setup is a 2 tank system with the front tank heated. I have a Artict fox heat exchanger and 18 feet of hoses on hose fuel line with a Racor 120 gph heated fuel filter. I know that heat is your friend in any WVO setup.


I can not speat to running WVO on a 7.3 IDI.
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Old 07-14-2007, 09:31 PM
fluxcore fluxcore is offline
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Hi Bill. 3 questions 4 you:


What brand of Injection pumps are on the newer Powerstroke Fords?

Is it still a Stanadyne rotary style, or did Ford switch to something else?

How many miles do you have on veggie?
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Old 07-14-2007, 09:47 PM
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Powerstrokes don't have IP's. They use high pressure engine oil to fire the injectors and the fuel pressure mutiplication takes place within the injector itself.

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Old 07-15-2007, 12:07 AM
willbd willbd is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fluxcore
Hi Bill. 3 questions 4 you:


What brand of Injection pumps are on the newer Powerstroke Fords?

Is it still a Stanadyne rotary style, or did Ford switch to something else?

How many miles do you have on veggie?

I have only 12K running on WVO. 8k of that is pulling.
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Old 07-15-2007, 08:35 AM
flyboyd8 flyboyd8 is offline
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Fluxcore, you must be an Engineer!

Hello again, as I posted on the other site to you , I now have 1 year and 40K on WVO. The Stanadyne is listed as a medium risk pump, yes a Bosch is stronger. I would suggest that you pull your pump and have it gone threw and also have a good diesel shop check your injectors. I bought a 93 7.3 N/A with the sole purpose of running on WVO. It had 174K on the original pump and injectors, I knew the pump was sick before I bought it and drove it home from Iowa. The rest of the truck was pristine. Now after running 40k and 1 year on veg, I will never have a Bosch. As HCII listed on another site and you read the thread, Filters are not perfect!!! Last yr. when I pulled the pump for the first rebuild It cost me $398.00 to have the pump brought up to knew condition. It would have been $268.00 but they had to replace the Main drive shaft because of excess wear on it, the truck at that time indicated 177K . The original Injectors popped at 1675, Ford and Stanadyne list 1450 as low limit. I chose to install new injectors at $28.00 apiece at that Time. And I boxed and shelved the originals.
Then after driving 18,500K on veg I had a situation that acted like lack of lube in the dino fuel, every time I switched back to Dino the truck would some times shut down when idled off, it would usually restart. the time it didn't I called my diesel shop and asked for advise they told me lack of lube, in diesel. they said to pull the top of the pump off and manually set the full shut off back, it was sticking. I did this and the truck started right up. but I saw a lot of dark stuff that was coating everything in the pump.When I got home I pulled the pump amd dumped the fuel out and it was coated with a black residue. I then pulled both fuel filters the diesel and the veg, the diesel seemed OK, when I looked inside the 10 micron veg filter the mystery was solved. It was a from well respected, top of the line filter company. (I will only say, it was white with blue/black writing on it) I cut the filter apart and found that on the bottom cap it was short of epoxy and 2 of the pleats weren't sealed to the cap it was letting everything pass threw to the pump. I had run that filter for 4600 miles. the previous filter gave me 5600 miles before restriction reduced fuel pressure to indicate time to change. The Crap took out the housing this time. that rebuild cost $404.00. I still felt I was money ahead because of savings on fuel cost. I now have surpassed 40K total on wvo. I just pulled the top off the pump to have a look and it is just as it was from last rebuild, no buildups of any kind clean shinny parts.


Yes WVO has risks, but done properly, the risks can be manageable. If the dino fuel filter had the same defect, the results would have been the same. The pump still would have been Trashed! The Stanadyne is a very good IP for veg. If I had been running a Cumming w/ a Bosch. the rebuilds would have been in excess of $1200.00.

Even after sticking my finger in the IP, the truck started right up and ran good to get me home.

I just got home from a trip to SD left w/ and used 200 gal. of veg in the back of the truck and was towing my 25' camper. got a sickening 12.75 miles to the gal. normally get 16+ towing. It was in Iowa on the way out that I realized/ confermed something was not right and it was Smoking like a locamotive on those hills in western Iowa. 3808 miles round trip, on arrival home I pulled the injectors and we found six that popped at knew specs. 1 that pee'd at 1400 PSI and One that popped at 1800 spungly. so it now has another two new injectors. I believe the two were scoured with the dirt but didn't show then. The others seemed uneffected. Drove to the diesel shop with origonal injectors in the truck.

Yes, veg has risks but I can live with it. and still keep filling the veg tank. I havn't walked home yet.




Long live the IDI !!!!!!!

Ken H Central NY
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Old 07-20-2007, 02:25 PM
fluxcore fluxcore is offline
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Hi everyone. Thanks for your info. I haven't spent more than a few minutes on this forum this last week, so I'm a little late in replying to your input.


The reason that I'm so careful about this planned conversion is that it's my daily driver. I NEED to drive it. For now, I'm not wealthy enough to own, insure, fuel and maintain more than one truck, so I can't afford to beat the guts out of my IP with a faulty conversion.

I knew that there were a number of successful svo conversions out there done on vehicles with rotary IPs, but that lady mech really freaked me out! I've been studying svo stuff for 3 or 4 years now, but having no direct experience, I'm somewhat dependant on accurrate, detailed reports from other svo enthusiasts.

Details count. For example, a member on the other forum runs a Suburban on svo in a very cold climate. He reported having a broken IP shaft on his Stanadyne DB2 IP. He examined the dead IP and feels that the snapped shaft is related to friction build up causing a seizure condition. The IP shop up there in Alaska actually had to cut the IP body apart to remove the broken shaft.

Apparently, switching from cold diesel to hot veggie may possibly cause the IP drive shaft to thermally expand before the IP body can expand enough to smoothly accomodate the spinning shaft inside it. With the relatively close tolerances in an IP, any significant constriction of the mating surfaces between the IP shaft and IP body may reduce fuel flow beteen these surfaces to unnacceptably low rates. Since the fuel IS also the lube, it is believed by some that friction can build up and lead to seizure.

This is all theory, but it comes from the guy who snapped his IP shaft up in the frigid Alaskan air. He says that other greasers who have experienced snapped shafts when running svo in rotary IPs seem to remember that their shafts snapped fairly soon after switching from cold diesel to hot veggie.

I know that is somewhat annectdotal evidence, but unless someone volunteers to intentionally pump very hot veggie through a very cold IP, the best evidence we have is the experience of those who have run svo in the bitter cold. I'm betting that many greasers in cold climates likely do switch from cold diesel to hot veggie before their IP gets warmed up, but not all of them are running rotary IPs, and of those who are not all of them have had snapped shafts.

The fact that not everyone who runs veggie under these conditions has suffered IP failure doesn't convince me that there is no relationship between these types or failure and these conditions. Other variable details such as food particles in the oil and oils of different viscosity may also affect whether failure occurs or not.

Anyway, since I live in Vancouver B.C., about 2 hours north of Seattle Washington, I likely won't often have to face the kind of extreme cold that seems to be connected to some rotary IP failures.

If anyone here knows automotive electrical systems and wants to give advice on a custom heater/controller combination, please let me know.

Thanks!

Last edited by fluxcore; 07-20-2007 at 02:30 PM.
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Old 07-20-2007, 03:39 PM
jdemaris jdemaris is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fluxcore
Details count. For example, a member on the other forum runs a Suburban on svo in a very cold climate. He reported having a broken IP shaft on his Stanadyne DB2 IP. He examined the dead IP and feels that the snapped shaft is related to friction build up causing a seizure condition. The IP shop up there in Alaska actually had to cut the IP body apart to remove the broken shaft.
The driveshaft in any rotary Stanadyne/Roosamaster injection pump acts like a "fuse", and is designed to snap in two if the pump turns too hard. If they didn't design the shaft to break, something else that's more expensive might break instead - e.g. timing gears? Vernon Roosa was the inventor of the pump, and - even back in the 1950s when he was trying to sell his idea - his prototypes kept siezing and giving him trouble. Hartridge Tool finally built his pump and later became Stanadyne. Same company makes the roller lifters in the Ford-IH and GM diesels, as well as Moen kitchen faucets. Hercules Cleatrac was the first to use it around 1959, and then John Deere in 1960. Ironically though, Ford Motor Co. was supposed to be the first - in the early 50s - but backed out of the deal.

All rotary pumps are sensitive to fuel viscosity, lubricosity, and extreme temperature changes. That because of the "head & rotor" assembly that is the distributor section of the pump and runs with very tight tolerances. And in-line type pump doesn't have any of that, and therefore tends to be much more durable. Also, keep in mind - that a rotary pump has one set of pump plungers to serve ALL the cylinders, regardless if it's a four cylinder or a V-8. An in-line pump - like found on some Isuzu, Mercedes, and Dodge Cummins, has a separate pump for each cylinder. So, on a 7.3 Ford IH diesel V-8, at 2000 RPM - the rotary pump's plungers have to pump 8000 times, whereas - if the same 7.3 had an in-line pump - each pump plunger would only pump 1000 times at 2000 RPM. That's a huge difference in part's movement and wear.
Besides the inherent wear problem associated with any rotary pump - the Stanadynes are the worst of the bunch. The Robert Bosch, American Bosch, CAV and Diesel Kiki versions tend to be more durable. CAV is built under license by Stanadyne to use some of the original technology but not compete with most U.S. products.
I've worked, on and off, in several injection pump shops since the late 1960s - and Stanadyne/Roosamaster pumps have always been the most trouble-prone. They are very sensitive to thin fuels. You mentioned one failure in an arctic area. Stanadyne had many problems in cold areas - mostly because the fuel has to be thinned and therefore has less lube quality. Same problem exists in our military since the standard JP8 jet fuel is used in all diesels - including the thousands of CUCV trucks powered by GM 6.2s and 6.5s. The US Army has reported that right now, Stanadyne rotary pumps being used in Iraq have an average life of less then 1000 miles due to high heat and thin fuel. Stanadyne sells a thin-fuel "Arctic" kit for pumps used on 7.3s. It adds some specially hardened parts - but won't stop it from siezing.
In regard to the hard hot starting issues. That is often caused by wear in the head & rotor assembly - brought on by WVO, thin diesel fuel cut with kerosene, and anything else that does not lube as needed. Bad starting when hot is usually an early sign a pump is getting ruined. On the other hand, too thick fuel that is cold can also sieze a pump.
Some people using many types of alternative fuels do okay - when careful. Vegetable oils are not all the same. Some are high lube, some low. Some are also high acid. Keep something in mind. If you do your own pump and engine work, and you are a good scrounger - finding parts cheap - then you might gain by using alternative fuels.
But . . . if you pay to have your work done, and you pay for many over-the-counter parts - I don't believe you will ever save one penny. Your more apt to lose money. A well cared for Stanadyne pump can last 200,000 miles in many circumstances before needing any work. Pre 1985 pumps rarely lasted 80K though. If - a person - starting out with a used engine - began to use alternative fuel - how would they ever know if they shortened the life of the pump? Would you know if a pump's life got cut in half and only lasted 50K instead of 100K? I doubt it. Also, remember - when you send a pump out to get "rebuilt", most of the time - the main wear items are NOT replaced with new. Very often, a certified "rebuilt" pump comes with a head & rotor that will already have many miles on it - sometimes 200,000 -300,000 miles.
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Old 07-25-2007, 03:53 PM
fluxcore fluxcore is offline
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Excellent info Jdemaris! Thanks a lot!
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Old 10-14-2007, 09:06 AM
petepetersen petepetersen is offline
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I think that I just experienced this on my 1944 F250 7.3 IDI NA . The engine just quit suddenly ( no chuggin etc ) and no fuel comming out of injector lines . Is there any way to check for shaft seizure ( shearing ) with the pump
? - Thanks
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Old 10-15-2007, 08:48 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by petepetersen
I think that I just experienced this on my 1944 F250 7.3 IDI NA . The engine just quit suddenly ( no chuggin etc ) and no fuel comming out of injector lines . Is there any way to check for shaft seizure ( shearing ) with the pump
? - Thanks

Uhmmm typo I hope
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Old 10-15-2007, 01:20 PM
petepetersen petepetersen is offline
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Ok, it is a 1994 model . The engine was up to normal operating temperature at switchover. I guess that it is possible that the IP got a "slug" of cold (45F min) WVO in the line . Maybe I should have let the engine stay on normal for another 10 minutes and only done the switchover at idle .


BTW- Thank you Jdemaris for your explantion .

Last edited by petepetersen; 10-15-2007 at 01:26 PM.
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Old 10-15-2007, 03:02 PM
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Do you heat the VO.
Unheated VO can cause lots of problems from blowing seals and pumps due to hi viscousity to coking rings and injectors.

Engine temp is not enough.
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Old 10-15-2007, 04:50 PM
fluxcore fluxcore is offline
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This is a great forum, but for staying current on svo tech see www.biodiesel.infopop.cc . Currently, anyone running 2 tank svo through any rotary IP would be well advised to add at least 2-5% veggie to their diesel tank and add a FPHE so that BOTH fuels pass through it. That way, the IP is hot before the veggie ever hits it. Make sure you have a temp guage installed on the IP return so you know when she's hot.
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Old 10-15-2007, 05:35 PM
petepetersen petepetersen is offline
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After I get the new IP in , I will reconfigure my system in similar manner to what you suggested . - Thanks (aka rkpatt)

Quote:
Originally Posted by fluxcore
This is a great forum, but for staying current on svo tech see www.biodiesel.infopop.cc . Currently, anyone running 2 tank svo through any rotary IP would be well advised to add at least 2-5% veggie to their diesel tank and add a FPHE so that BOTH fuels pass through it. That way, the IP is hot before the veggie ever hits it. Make sure you have a temp guage installed on the IP return so you know when she's hot.
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Old 10-15-2007, 05:35 PM
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