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Old 06-16-2007, 11:47 PM
bigmuddyford bigmuddyford is offline
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460 with a Turbo?

I have a 92 f250 with an efi 460. Im wanting a lot more power cause the 240 it has stock just isnt enough. What all do i have to do to put a turbo on? I have an old subaru out back with a turbo. Im a pretty handy mechanic so fabrication wont be a problem but will that small turbo give me the proper boost for this motor. Or should i go scavage one from a mid 90's powerstroke. the later is what im leaning to because i could also use the radiator and intercooler setup from that truck (im really not sure if i can just take the intercooler and stick it infront of the radiator i have now or use the setup from the powerstroke) along with the exhaust flanges and etc. But the subaru is just sitting out back so i dont care to destroy it to use the turbo, But if im going to do this i want it to be worth my while. Which brings me to my next question. I have a stock truck other than a few things such as shift kit and KandN filter. Other than that pretty much stock. What changes will i have to make to the efi setup to use a turbo. I have an E4OD so i have to stay efi. Can i use the stock injectors and if not what would be the best option. Also how would i get oil to the turbo. Will my automatic handle the power increase. Also with the increase in compression will i be able to run on 93 octane.
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Old 06-18-2007, 11:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bigmuddyford
I have a 92 f250 with an efi 460. Im wanting a lot more power cause the 240 it has stock just isnt enough. What all do i have to do to put a turbo on?
There are two ways of approaching this project. The correct way, where you figure out the RPM range you want to run the engine in, how much boost that new engine will handle based on the parts you choose, what compression ratio, what size turbos etc, then fabricate/buy/have made the parts necessary to put that together for a reliable, powerful system. The monkey way is to slap on a turbo (or two if you use smaller, junkyardish ones) and see what happens and hope the rings stay on the pistons.

The latter method is by far cheaper, initially, assuming the engine holds together.

Where most people run into trouble is tuning the EFI system. Your 92 is speed density based which by itself isn't problem except that there is very little tuning software that supports it well enough that you'd be able to achieve a forced induction engine with the EEC that's in there now.

What most people do is convert their truck to mass air, i.e. the 95+ F-series EEC or the 89-93 mustang EFI mass air system, the latter being supported by many more tuning softwares and some of the hardware dongle type tuners.

Regardless what EFI system you use, you must be able to tune it because in factory/stock form none of these EEC's are going to understand there's a 460 with forced induction. You'll have to scale many parameters differently, adjust the fuel table settings depending on how large of injectors you will end up with, and so on.

Stock injectors aren't useful for such projects. For example, on my 500cid (460 based) twin turbo stroker project, I'll be using 160lb bosch injectors, which are just a "hair" bigger than the stock 42lb injectors.

The subaru turbo you references is grotesquely too small, and will overspeed at very low engine RPMs and basically commit suicide in short order. It's sized for a 2-something liter engine, not an almost 8 liter engine.

Fabrication isn't very difficult if you can weld:

First you will have to decide whether you want one larger turbo, or two smaller ones, and how the plumbing will have to be as well as fabricate or pay a shop to fabricate all the necessary parts. There aren't any 460 turbocharger kits for the F-series that I'm aware of. But if you can weld, you can make your own turbo manifolds out of ordinary materials. Here is what I did:

How To: http://frederic.midimonkey.com/f350-...manifolds.html

Click the image to open in full size.

I made two of those, one for each side of the engine. The manifolds in the above picture/link started out as a 10' piece of black pipe sectioned and welded to get the basic curves, welded to 3/8" thick plate which is the header flange.

Then, because my math determined that the stock dual-inlet throttle body was too small, I chose to make a "adapter" and use two much larger, 4.6L throttle bodies.

How To: http://frederic.midimonkey.com/f350-superplenum.html

Click the image to open in full size.

Mechanically, making a turbocharger system isn't a big deal, it's just time consuming and requires a fair amount of planning so everything fits together.

Hopefully that gets you started. Before you throw cash into this, think about the approach you want to think, and start digging through the internet for math that will help you, and calculate it all out just to be safe.

Here are some of my older posts that may (or not) help you:

http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/58...lock-ford.html
http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/53...m-thinkin.html


And here is some math that might get you started...

Calculating Airflor Requirements

cfm = (cid x rpm x VE) / 3456
cfm = (302 x 6000 x 0.85) / 3456
cfm = 445.66


Calculating Pressure Ratio

pressure ratio = (boost psi + 14.7) / 14.7

If you want 10psi of boost, the pressure ratio is:
pr = (10 + 14.7) / 14.7
pr = 1.68:1


Temperature Rise

A compressor will raise the temperature of air as it compresses it. As temperature increases, the volume of air also increases. There is an ideal
temperature rise, which is a temperature rise equivalent to the amount of work that it takes to compress the air. The formula to figure the ideal
outlet temperature is:

T2 = T1(p2/p1)^0.283

T2 = outlet temp degrees R
T1 = inlet temp degrees R
degrees R = degrees F + 460
P1 = inlet pressure absolute
P2 = outlet pressure absolute

If the inlet temperature is 75 degrees F, and we want 10psi of boost, to figure out T1 in degrees R:

T1 = 75 + 460 = 535 degrees R

The P1 inlet pressure will be atmospheric in our case and the P2 outlet pressure will be 10 psi above atmospheric. Atmospheric pressure is 14.7
psi, so the inlet pressure will be 14.7 psi, to figure the outlet pressure add the boost pressure to the inlet pressure.

P2 = 14.7 + 10 = 24.7psi

Now we have all the variables and we can figure out the idea outlet temperature.

T2 = 535(24.7 / 14.7)^0.283 = 620 degrees R

the convert back to degrees F
620 - 460 = 160 degrees F

The above formula assumes a 100% adiabatic efficiency (AE), no loss or gain of heat. The actual temperature rise will certainly be higher than that. How much higher will depend on the adiabatic efficiency of the compressor, usually 60-75%. To figure the actual outlet temperature, you need this formula:

IOTR ÷ AE = AOTR
Where:
IOTR = Ideal Outlet Temperature Rise
AE = Adiabatic Efficiency
AOTR = Actual Outlet Temperature Rise

Lets assume the compressor we are looking at has a 70% adiabatic efficiency at the pressure ratio and flow range we're dealing with. The outlet temperature will then be 30% higher than ideal. So at 70% it using our example, we'd need to do this:

85 ÷ 0.7 = 121 degrees F Actual Outlet Temperature Rise
Now we must add the temperature rise to
the inlet temperature:
75 + 121 = 196 degrees F Actual Outlet Temperature


As air is heated it expands and becomes less dense. This makes an increase in volume and flow. To compare the inlet to outlet airflow, you must know the density ratio. To figure out this ratio, use this formula:

(Inlet deg R ÷ Outlet deg R) × (Outlet Pressure ÷ Inlet Pressure) = Density Ratio

We have everything we need to figure this out. For our 302 example the formula will look like this:
(535 ÷ 656) × (24.7 ÷ 14.7) = 1.37 Density Ratio

Using all the above information, you can figure out what the actual inlet flow in CFM. To do this, use this formula:

Outlet CFM × Density Ratio = Actual Inlet CFM

For the 302...

445.66 CFM × 1.37 = 610.55 CFM Inlet Air Flow

That is about a 37% increase in airflow and the potential for 37% more horsepower. When comparing to a compressor flow map that is in Pounds per Minute (lbs/min), multiply CFM by 0.069 to convert CFM to lbs/min.

610.55 CFM × 0.069 = 42.12795 lbs/min

Now you can compare these results with compressor maps of turbos you are considering and determine how suitable they are, or aren;t. Play with sevearl adiabatic efficiency numbers and pressure ratios until you have good results. Twin turbo systems would require each turbo to do half the work, whereas a single turbo system would be required to do all the work.

Last edited by frederic; 06-18-2007 at 11:19 AM.
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Old 06-19-2007, 10:24 PM
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96sherm 96sherm is offline
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mr fred, you're post never cease to amaze me!!! great knowledge!!
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Old 06-19-2007, 11:05 PM
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Thanks! I'm really just a monkey that wears golf shirts. Mostly with burn holes from welding ;-)

My twin-turbo crewcab project is on hold at the moment, but it's actually my third or forth project of my own, and I've been involved in many others, trial and error style. One learns a lot by blowing stuff up! Especially if it's intentional!
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Old 02-04-2009, 09:33 AM
lincolnincanada lincolnincanada is offline
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Hey i know this is not a truck but i like your post. I have a 73 lincoln MARK IV that want to turbo. Where should i start? can i just bolt one or two up and go or should i rebuild the engine? there is only 83000 miles on the car and i just rebuilt the top end. can you help
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Old 02-04-2009, 01:22 PM
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96sherm 96sherm is offline
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it all depends on how much boost and such you're expecting to put your motor through... if you have the spare change, it'd be much smarter to build a stronger base to begin with than end up wrecking something and creating more work and cost...

Say, where's Mr Fred been lately?? haven't heard much from him!!!

Welcome to FTE there Lincoln... where ever you're from, check out and join your local canadian chapter!!
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Old 04-30-2009, 11:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 96sherm View Post
Say, where's Mr Fred been lately?? haven't heard much from him!!!
Since I've been unemployed for a little over four years now and corporate America isn't interested in hiriing senior/middle management any longer, this left me in a serious pickle.

So about eight months ago I started an IT consulting business that sadly has become a low-hanging-fruit type of break/fix computer sales business in the meantime. Hey, one has to start somewhere. Unfortunately I have to compete with importers and Best Buy, so it's been slow going thus far.
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Old 04-30-2009, 02:50 PM
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nice to hear from you Fred, sorry to hear of your experience, but i hope things turn up for you soon!!!
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Old 11-28-2009, 02:11 AM
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Been thinking about the same thing

I have a 97 f250 HD 4x4 460 e4od [all with no mods] which has a non obd2 computer which royally sucks. I have been thinking about putting two turbos on my motor, figured this would be easier since it has two intake ports and two sides. Plumbing, bracketry, scavenging would be gravy for me. Now the problem any ideas on what size turbo to use?
Electronics -- you mentioned 95 up computer is that just for the obd2 ease or something else because as I said I have non OBD2 just one of the joys of an HD much like the old body style. Another part of this JOY would be a water or alcohol injection I heard this has worked good for turbos and would save me from using an intercooler, and I think I could use 2 regular injectors mounted on the main air intake wired to fire with each injector. I probably am just crazy but if not could you give me a starting point or any other hints

thanks
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Old 01-28-2010, 06:34 PM
capn kirk capn kirk is offline
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i have been trying to find it but someone did a turbo build with an turbo that mounted farther back down the exhaust. wish i could at least remember the term for it, rear mounted turbo maybe? if i remember correctly it went well
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Old 01-29-2010, 09:01 AM
mstromni mstromni is offline
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Rear-mounted turbo works, just remember that the efficiency of the turbo can be measured by A: the pressure drop across the turbo and b: the temperature drop across the turbo

Farther back in the exhaust, you have less heat and pressure to work with, so your turbo will be less efficient. But you're still getting something out of that gas, so it's going to be more efficient than no turbo
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Old 03-09-2010, 02:57 AM
LloyDana460 LloyDana460 is offline
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Thumbs up 1993 460 EFI.... TURBO?

What Turbo Would You Reccomend? Perhaps One From A 7.3 Powerstroke?
What Modifications Would The EFI System require To Make This Setup Work?
Any Help Would Be Great.... Thank You...
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Old 03-09-2010, 09:37 AM
mstromni mstromni is offline
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The turbo from the 7.3 is designed to run a good bit of boost at 1800 - 3000 rpm, but it's not expected to go any higher. It seems to me that If you use the powerstroke turbo, you'll have too much boost at low RPM, which isn't a problem, just inefficient, be in the sweet spot around 3000-400 rpm, and above that you won't be able to generate much boost (turbo provides too much restriction).
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Old 03-10-2010, 03:31 PM
LloyDana460 LloyDana460 is offline
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460 Turbo

What Would You Suggest For A Single Turbo?
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Old 03-12-2010, 10:43 PM
LloyDana460 LloyDana460 is offline
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Question CAT... DELETE...! SUPER DELETE!!

Anyone Know What Size The Dual Pipes Going Into My CAT Are??
I Have A '93 F350 4X4...
Thanks, Matt
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