My long-shot bet is that Toyota and CAT team up together.
Remember... you heard it here first (and I got it from Diesel Power Magazine).
I hate to say it as I've been driving Ford trucks for 25 years, but if that happens I might seriously consider jumping ship. Especially given the problems as of the last few years.
__________________
2004 F250 6.0 Auto, Lariat, FX4, Supercab longbox, stock for now.
1996 F350 XLT Reg cab longbox, tymar, BTS trans, Bills chip, guages, Bilsteins, urethane bushings and other mods, now gone but not forgotten. <><
If cat went with Ford i would buy one tomorrow. I love Ford, My dad worked there until retirement. I need something to pull hills, I have a Part time mowing bissiness, and I need a truck that can pull about 4200 lbs, my little 4.6 has a hard time, so I hope Ford comes out with the F-150 diesel.
The foreign auto makers are not stupid, after seeing what has happened with ford/navistar and gm/isuzu they will think twice about outsourcing to an engine manufacturer. Why wouldn't they keep that money completely in house? Hino and Ud anyone?
There is only one manufacturer that hasn't had a problem with their diesel supplier......daimler benz and cummins...........which once again proves that cummins is the best all around diesel in a light truck.
In the end............
gm will use the isuzu design and fail to keep it up to date and lose in the long run.
dodge will use the cummins untill cummins backs out and then they will offer a benz design and fair decently well with it.
Toyota will use hino and will top the market...............eventually.
Nissan will use a ud design and stay competitive.
Ford will introduce an in house design that will either make them or break them.........I fear the latter. But they changed the market years ago and could do it again.
I know that cat doesn't want the hastle to enter the race, but If one of the manufacturers would fork out the money........they would rule the market for a looooooooooooooooonnngggggg time. Money talks, thats business. If they were able to offer a cat diesel they could charge 10,000 or more just for the option and people would still buy the crap out of em cause of the name. That's a fact, just look at dodge.......their trucks get crappier and more plastic added, but the still sell due to the cummins name plate on the side.........the engine litterally outlast the trucks........it's a shame that the truck never reaches half the life span of the engine
__________________ "Always mystify, mislead, and surprise the enemy...repeated victory will make you invincible. Have faith in God that the victory will be won, irregardless of odds." --- Gen. T. J. Jackson
Club SNL- #13 '87 Bronco(daily driver) '91 F-150(ole faithfull) '78 F-150 4X (F. O. Resto) '76 F-150(parts) '77 F-150(wifes ride)
You gentlemen are right on track with your views of the corporate evasion of responsibility, and tenuous partnerships.
I have owned a 1976 F250 4x4 since 1982 and have been a loyal Ford truck owner for 25 years. I like Ford trucks or I wouldn't have put a bundle into my old truck over the years. The time is coming for me to get new truck and restore the old one.
I am in the same boat as everyone else, I like the Ford trucks themselves much better than the Dodge trucks, but that Cummins diesel is the best motor ever put in a pick-up. I am a little scared of the 6.0 and 6.4 Navistar engines because of all the problems. I am unsure, and do not want to spend the money until I feel more comfortable about my choices. I think that both Ford and Dodge are hurting themselves right now. Ford is hurting themselves with the Navistar issues and Dodge is hurting themselves with the quality control issues.
If cat went with Ford i would buy one tomorrow. I love Ford, My dad worked there until retirement. I need something to pull hills, I have a Part time mowing bissiness, and I need a truck that can pull about 4200 lbs, my little 4.6 has a hard time, so I hope Ford comes out with the F-150 diesel.
Just about anything can pull 4200 lbs. I used to pull over 6000 with a 98 F150 with the 5.4.
__________________
2004 F250 6.0 Auto, Lariat, FX4, Supercab longbox, stock for now.
1996 F350 XLT Reg cab longbox, tymar, BTS trans, Bills chip, guages, Bilsteins, urethane bushings and other mods, now gone but not forgotten. <><
My 300ZX Twin Turbo is built to around 425 hp, if I put the suspension on the very stiff "sport mode", and slap a receiver on it, it could pull 4,200 lbs. easily..LOL!
CAT already has lighter engines they could redo for pickups. They are Constant duty also. Thats why we always loved runing them in a truck. At 450,000 mi. we only had to replace 1 injector and change oil and flters. They have a 4 cylinder that would be perfect in F 150s. Maybe too much power!!
Just about anything can pull 4200 lbs. I used to pull over 6000 with a 98 F150 with the 5.4.
5.4 is a stronger v-8 then a 4.6 and plus he said that he had hills to pull up as well that adds another dimension then just having to deal with the extra weight. I have been in a 4.6 and the hills that are in middle tn. and the ones round fredricksburg tx give that one a hard time and that one was just pulling itself and two passengers I couldn't imagine what it would do with extra weight of a mower on there.
Perkins are great engines, ran them when we usssed reefers w/propane engines. Some would shutoff and leak a little vapor in and it would sound like a rifle shot. I never had trouble with their engines in 10 years and around 2.5 million miles running team. Had battery and belt trouble bu not the engine.
The new 4.4 is from Ford of Europe-PSA joint venture and is way more advanced that that 4.5 V6 from IH that we tried to put in the Expos and F150's five years ago. This new V8 is already running in landrovers in a 3.6L and is based on the 2.7L V6 motor which has powered European Jags and Rovers for a few years.
My sources tell me it will be built by a US Diesel engine manufacturer well known for its current inline 6 cyl pickup engine.
Not sure what International is ranting about here, but the "Lion" relationship on this engine comes from the 2.7L European V6. And they'd better not claim too much on the 4.5 V6 which barely beat the 3v 5.4L for fuel ecomomy. It was their injector design which caused many of the problems on the first year 6.0L
Not sure what International is ranting about here, but the "Lion" relationship on this engine comes from the 2.7L European V6. And they'd better not claim too much on the 4.5 V6 which barely beat the 3v 5.4L for fuel ecomomy. It was their injector design which caused many of the problems on the first year 6.0L
wrong it was not navistars injector design it was fords programing in hte ECU that caused the problems (hence 99% of the injector problems were fixed with a reflash, and the reason navistar is denying the warrenty claim as they had NOTHING to do with the fuel delivery system used on the powerstroke) if you check most of the problems with the 6.0 were not with the base engine that navistar is responsible for covering the warrenty costs on. the closest would be the head gasket issue but Ford pushed the power up increasing the boost preasures above the design limits causing a failure, not navistar's problem, I mean put a tuner on your truck and blow the engine and see how long before the Ford service department denies your warrenty claim.
As to cat entering the small truck market, it's been said in this thread and many others as well as direct output from Cat inc but it bears repeating THEY WILL NOT BUILD AN ENGINE FOR THE SMALL TRUCK MARKET. The reasons are simple, first cat has enough trouble meeting the epa emissions requirements on teh class 8 stuff (cat had to pay millions in fines back in 03 cause they couldn't make the engines meet those emissions for 6 months after the requirement), yes cat has deep pockets but it cost navistar something like 60 million dollars to get the 6.0 emissions compliant and I don't have the figures for the 6.4 but bet it's even higher, now in cats position they would be starting from scratch so it would be even more costly. Next they don't want to deal with the warrenty claims when people start putting tuners on their design and blowing it up just like the navistar/ford fight. It's just not worth it to that company plus they know if they put a small truck diesel engine out it can ruin the rep the company has (undeserved but still there none the less) if they start having major issues with them in the small trucks like the duramax and 6.0 did to GM and ford/navistar
__________________ "Always mystify, mislead, and surprise the enemy...repeated victory will make you invincible. Have faith in God that the victory will be won, irregardless of odds." --- Gen. T. J. Jackson
Club SNL- #13 '87 Bronco(daily driver) '91 F-150(ole faithfull) '78 F-150 4X (F. O. Resto) '76 F-150(parts) '77 F-150(wifes ride)
This forum is owned and operated by Internet Brands, Inc., a Delaware corporation. It is not authorized or endorsed by the Ford Motor Company and is not affiliated with the Ford Motor Company or its related companies in any way. FordŽ is a registered trademark of the Ford Motor Company.
