Just saw in the paper (have to get away from FTE once in a while!) In a rare Saturday session, the Congress voted in a $16B tax on the oil companies and billions in tax credits for alternative energy development and usage, and nothing to dig for more oil and gas. Ethanol was not mentioned because it's covered in the bill they passed in June. After their vacation they'll merge the bills and send it to Bush for signing.

A Representative in Congress, Ralph Hall (R- Texas) complained about all the "venom" and "war" against gas and oil. All he has to do is look at their profit margins. Never mind other countries, the average U. S. resident just trying to go about living his/her life is being screwed over every day by Big Oil and their refineries (These are Americans, too!).

But all things considered from this thread, ethanol is certainly a part of the solution, but it has to involve other alternative resources as well, including nuclear. They just need to keep those plants safe to operate, safe from accidents and/or terrorists, and get rid of the spent fuel rods safely.

 

Sorry, but Americans are not being screwed over by big oil and the refineries. I suppose you believe the CEO, Pres, VP, and all the other management folks and stock holders who have stock in Exxon, Texaco, Sunoco, Shell, etc... are all working in the oil fields and at the refineries processing all this crude oil. Do you have any idea how integral the oil companies and industries are to our national economy? Do you have any idea what would happen to our country's economomy, and that of the world, if over night the oil companies decided to go under. I'm not talking about our energy requirements, I'm talking about our economy.

We aren't a bunch of farmers who plant food, harvest food, eat food, cut trees for wood and build our house. It would be nice to be self sustained. But we aren't. You have no idea how many jobs become linked to the oil industry. Sorry, but it's not even worth continuing. Take any industry; even at a small level like a military base, railroad company, major distributor, factory, etc... and have them close down in a town. It's not just the direct employees who worked for them that are out of a job, there are sometimes thousands of people and millions of dollars affected in the community because of that one industry leaving. Now, do that with the oil companies and energy industry at a national level and you might start to understand. When will people realize that we are no longer little self sufficient communities who can live autonomous?

And no, Ethanol is not part of the solution. It uses more resources than it saves. It uses as much resources and energy as it produces. It is only shifting money from the consumer's hands in higher prices and higher taxes to the Archer Daniels Midlands of the country. Very little actually goes to the mom and pop farmers. If it wasn't corn, they'd be growing something else. Unless of course they were being subsidized to NOT GROW anything. Yes, that does happen. Anyway, the country, world, economy, ecology, etc.... is not as simple as you think it is. later/.... Mike....

 

Are you ready to pay what will be your share of that $16 billion tax?

In case you don't understand what I mean, here's a business 101. In business, you sell a product, you take ALL the expenses and make sure you sell that product at a price that will cover all those expenses. When looking a the red and black numbers, any and all taxes are considered an expense. Where's the money come from to pay it? From the price you charge when you sell the product. Tax goes up, your price goes up. Simple as that. If our gov't tries to legislate profit out of the oil industry, no problem for them, they simply shut down and not do business here. They aren't a charity. If they can't make a profit, they will simply shut down.

I've lived through two gas shortages caused by the gov't meddling in the free market system and engaging price controlls and such. Lines were around the corner, fuel was rationed, odd/even days, etc.


Oil companies profit margin on gasoline is 9 cents a gallon. Less than just about any other product around. The margins on bottled water and milk are higher than that. Would you be willing to spend a dollar to be able to make $1.09 back?

What you are referring to is the NET profits the oil companies are reporting. Has it ever occurred to you that the reason they are showing large profits is because the economy is booming and they are simply selling a LOT of product? Booming economy means low unemployment. A plus for everyone.

Since when has it been un-American to be successful?

 

Great points 76supercab2. I believe you have truly touched on what the real problem is. Whether it's a debate on gas prices, the politics of the middle east, the use of ethanol pro/con, or being patriotic and supposedly helping the poor farmer.

The real problem is ignorance. Not in a bad way as to be confused with calling someone stupid or having different ideals. Ignorance in it's truest form. Meanin, "TO NOT KNOW". When a person doesn't know something, they are ignorant. We are all ignorant about something. Unfortunately, there are a lot of topics, as AMERICAN CITIZENS we should NOT be ignorant of. We need to educate ourselves. Unfortunately, the politicians and special interest groups feed on our ignorance.

When voting time comes around for president and congress, so many people vote based on personality, party lines, based on 1 thing a candidate said or stands for, or 1 agenda that impacts them directly but affects the country at large differently.

If people would or could take the emotion out of politics, voting, debating, etc... they could look at contraversial matters and see the big picture. Now of course, because of this emotion, there are going to be those who say that I am doing the exact same thing now. That I believe that my position is right, and that I am rationalizing is to support my position. Unfortunately, none of us knows each other personally. Therefor we don't know all the motives in our thoughts. I can say that while I have conviction and passion for positions that I take, these positions are based on available data at the time. I have on MANY of ocasion, changed my position when others have brought new evidence and information. You don't have to believe that, but it is true.

The same goes here. Some support ethanol because they believe it is cheaper. Once it is shown that it is not cheaper, and without your tax dollar subsidizing the ethanol, it would actually be more expensive, they have to rationalize their position by saying they would rather spend more here than to allow "Terrorists in the middle east from getting the money from the oil we buy". Unfortunately, when they are shown that most of the money in middle east oil ISN'T going to terrorists, and that a large percentage, if not the majority, of oil we buy from abroad doesn't even come from the middle east, they then have to rationalize their position by trying to be patriotic and say that somehow buying less oil from the middle east will somehow save our men and woman from dieing over there. Or that it's financially helping our local farmers. Of course, when all that fails, and they are told that that is incorrect, they will believe that they are helping the environment for our children and their children.

There are some truths here. 1st; 10% ethanol does just about nothing for saving money, oil, the ecology, etc... It costs the consumer almost the same as regular gasoline. in most cases, it's less efficient and requires more gas to go the same distance, thereby negating any economic or ecological gains. Therefor, it isn't using less gasoline from the middle east. Another truth is that while E85 does in fact use less gasoline, it is only cheaper because your tax dollars are subsidizing it. Other products have risen in price because of it, therefore negating any savings. It isn't a noticeable impact on importation from the middle east or other oil companies. (That's why you don't hear the big oil companies complaining about it). Trust me, their special interests with the government are a lot more influential than your voice is. Why don't they complain if we are using less oil????? Also, there is virtually no way that our country could produce enough ethanol to totally replace our need for fossil fuels. We don't have the land or water to do it. Along with trying to still grow food to feed ourselves with. Again, part of the ignorance where people never think about how all that food got into the supermarket.

Our society takes way too much for granted. People don't want to KNOW that the reason lettuce is the price it is, is because of illegal immigrants. Same with many other services and products. Yet, they complain about the illegal immigrants and national security. I agree with that problem and would love to fix it. I'm willing for the price of produce to tripple because they have to pay union workers $15 a hour to work the fields. Are you willing to pay $1 per tomato? $5 for a gallon of milk? $4 for a loaf of bread? Again, most people don't think of these things. Ethanol is no different. People have no idea how the tax structure works. They have no idea that if it wasn't for all these subsidies, social welfare programs, and other programs that is funded with tax dollars, but many people believe that some how the government just HAD this money sitting around, that each of your pay checks would be hundreds of dollars more each month.

Anyway, because of ignorance, these debates will continue on forever. I am very glad that we have a Republic for a government and not a true Democracy. I am so glad that we elect "Representatives" to run this republic. Even with all their faults, we usually have a good enough checks and balance system designed to make laws and policies that "Generally" have the good of the entire country in mind. Granted, you are still penalized in this country for working real hard and becoming successful. You pay more taxes (Percentage wise) than those who make less. But even with all it's imperfections, I have lived in 14 countries and wouldn't trade this country for any of them. Too bad many of it's citizens only look at themselves and don't have any idea of the big picture. The worst thing that could ever happen, would be to let the majority rule at the citizen level and have the common people vote on laws and policies that would affect the entire nation, it's people, it's security, and it's future. Thank god our forefathers knew what the hell they were doing. Later... Mike....

 

There are posters to this thread who bash Arabs, Mexicans and so forth for the effects on U S dependance on oil... Well there are Americans making quite a killing off their own countrymen. Posters with the anti-foreign sentiment take note.

 

QUOTE: In case you don't understand what I mean, here's a business 101. In business, you sell a product, you take ALL the expenses and make sure you sell that product at a price that will cover all those expenses. When looking a the red and black numbers, any and all taxes are considered an expense. Where's the money come from to pay it? From the price you charge when you sell the product. Tax goes up, your price goes up. Simple as that. If our gov't tries to legislate profit out of the oil industry, no problem for them, they simply shut down and not do business here. They aren't a charity. If they can't make a profit, they will simply shut down. QUOTE

**I don't need your business 101 pal. I just posted what I saw in the paper. I am not in Congress and I don't control what they do..**


QUOTE: I've lived through two gas shortages caused by the gov't meddling in the free market system and engaging price controlls and such. Lines were around the corner, fuel was rationed, odd/even days, etc. QUOTE

**And I lived through two as well. Those were caused as much by panic buying tank-toppers as any so-called meddling by the government.**

QUOTE Oil companies profit margin on gasoline is 9 cents a gallon. Less than just about any other product around. The margins on bottled water and milk are higher than that. Would you be willing to spend a dollar to be able to make $1.09 back? QUOTE

**Got published facts for that line? At 9 cents a gallon Exxon-Mobil must be just about the only oil company in the country.**

Since when has it been un-American to be successful? [/QUOTE]

Some of those who posted here bash Arabs and Mexicans and so forth, yet here are Americans doing the same thing to their own. Don't just blame OPEC or Mexico, etc. Blame the whole industry AND those who waste the gasoline too.

 

Simple or not, at the rate the oil is being consumed worldwide, we and especially our children are in for a real tough time down the road unless they explore and use viable alternatives, period.

 

**I don't need your business 101 pal. I just posted what I saw in the paper. I am not in Congress and I don't control what they do..**

You can't write a letter? Your rep works for YOU. Remind him/her/it of that. The American citizen was pretty successful on that count with the recent immigration (quasi)reform bill that died in congress.



**And I lived through two as well. Those were caused as much by panic buying tank-toppers as any so-called meddling by the government.**

Perhaps.


**Got published facts for that line? At 9 cents a gallon Exxon-Mobil must be just about the only oil company in the country.**


As always, google is your friend.

http://www.conocophillips.com/newsro...il_profits.htm

"when the average price of unleaded regular peaked at about $3 a gallon in the middle of 2006, major companies were making a profit of about 10 cents a gallon "

Here's one from the Ca state gov.

http://www.energy.ca.gov/gasoline/margins/index.html

Note their numbers for profit include marketing and distribution costs.


Here's a third source with an interesting chart.

http://www.gravmag.com/oil.html

"Oil industry average profit margin is about 8.2%; (3rd Q. '05)
for all US industry, the average is about 6.8%.
Profits in the oil industry were easily outpaced by those of the
Pharmaceuticals, Banks, Household Products, Software, Telecommunications,
Semiconductors, Consumer Services, and Food, Beverage and Tobacco sectors."

 

Supercab; some really just don't get it. It's that ignorance I was speaking of. I wonder how many people have ever written a letter, an email, or made a phone call and spoken with their congressperson? Be it senate or the house? How many have educated themselves about a topic and written a letter in their local newspaper to the editor? How many have volunteered for a political cause to educate fellow citizens on the facts of a topic or debate?

See, our founding fathers were quite intelligent. They gave us the right to free speech and to say what's on our minds. Yet, they gave us the freedom to not do anything. They set up our government in such a manner as to not let ignorant people make laws; but set it up so if the government got out of control, we could vote them out or down right revolt against the government.

People forget that THEY ARE THE GOVERNMENT. That the politicians simply work for them. They know little about politics or economics. They don't know that when people bitch about "The Man", "Big Government", "Big Corporations", etc... that they have absolutely no idea most of the time what they are talking about. They think that our supply of oil will be gone in 20-30 years; that somehow all of our military men and woman are dieing all for this oil; that the oil companies have screwed over all Americans; and the list goes on.

These debates will never end because too many people will stay ignorant. They will base opinions off of what they hear from other people. LISTEN UP: It's even wrong to agree with me on this forum just because you like what I say or agree with it. You need to take what I say, what supercab says, what everyone else says here, and find the truth for yourself. The internet is a great source of information. Don't think that everything you read is the truth; but you can definitely find the truth here if you look for it. Base your opinions on facts. Or at least the facts at that point in time. Hold your politicians accountable to you. THEY WORK FOR YOU. Understand economics. Learn how ever dollar made or spent affects other people within that economy. Realize that POOR PEOPLE DON'T HIRE WORKERS. RICH PEOPLE DO. The wealthy is NOT your enemy. Don't buy into socialist or communist beliefs where you are told it isn't fair that someone who probably has worked harder than you and busted their ***, should have more than you. If these things can be understood, the rest of debates are easy. Then we can all learn from each other. Later... Mike....

 

---Well, their tax increase ain't a done deal, and the president has not offered an opinion on it, so before it is, motivate people to tell their senators and congress people to lay off the big oil companies.---

Looks like the ethanol guys took today off so not much debate here. 76supercab2 -- THANKS for the links.. That's what I want because I read the link from Whiteshadow about switch2e85.com and got their facts. Now I have yours.

Well it's been real. When the E85 guys come back y'all will be hacking away at each other again, but play nice and remember, we all FTE members.

For the record, when gas was $3 a gallon it cost me all of $15 a week to go to work, so if it gets to $6 I'll spend what a lot of people I work with spend already. So this thread don't need my 2 cents any more.

 

These debates will never end because too many people will stay ignorant. They will base opinions off of what they hear from other people. LISTEN UP: It's even wrong to agree with me on this forum just because you like what I say or agree with it. You need to take what I say, what supercab says, what everyone else says here, and find the truth for yourself. The internet is a great source of information. Don't think that everything you read is the truth; but you can definitely find the truth here if you look for it. Base your opinions on facts. Or at least the facts at that point in time. Hold your politicians accountable to you. THEY WORK FOR YOU. Understand economics. Learn how ever dollar made or spent affects other people within that economy. Realize that POOR PEOPLE DON'T HIRE WORKERS. RICH PEOPLE DO. The wealthy is NOT your enemy. Don't buy into socialist or communist beliefs where you are told it isn't fair that someone who probably has worked harder than you and busted their ***, should have more than you. If these things can be understood, the rest of debates are easy. Then we can all learn from each other. Later... Mike....[/QUOTE]

OK Mike, same to supercab and whiteshadow, wherever you are. Got the links I need to read and make my own decisions.

I never agree with anyone just because I like them.. And I don't know any of you guys outside of this thread.. So with the info both ends of the ethanol thread have given me I'm off-and-outta here.


Just play nice anyway. Healthy debate is, well, healthy.

 

If you want to reasonably raise corn in those area, you are foolish, because not only is it arid, but the soil quality is poor as well. Be reasonable...

Two parts, it is more heavily palted here, not because it is prime weather for it, but because there is fewer crops that do well here. Can't raise tobacco, cotton, or citrus here, never survive to harvest.

Time isn't something I have a lot of these days to get numbers to prove the point, although later in your response staes it, indirectly. Right now, it is aproaching 300 an acre I am told. Guess what? I don't farm it personally, my father retired, sold off the equipment, and rents it out.
[quote] Here's what you're up against.

Last year the US produced 6,200,000,000 gallons of ethanol. Sound like a lot?
If the entire country was using E100 that would last all of 19 days.
If the entire country was using E85 you could extend our usage out to 22 days.
Falls just a little bit short of an entire year. Doesn't it? (That's about 5% of what we'd need)[/qoute]
Where did I ever say that corn ethanol was the answer? Did I ever state that it will or could replace gasoline? I did state it is a stepping stone, not the end result or answer. It will require more than corn to be able to be effective, I also stated that other sources will need to replace it, since it is not effective enough on it's own.

read the prior response...
Again, where did I claim corn ethanol is the final answer? Get off your tirade, and repond to what I state, not what you read into it. You read too far in, and then make assumptions that are incorrect. Cellulistic ethanol shows promise, and can come from nontraditional sources, to the point maybe lawn clippings and the like may be used. Not as efficient as something like stalk plants such as switchgrass though.

Read above.By the way, ever heard of diversifying, not keeping all your eggs in one basket, all that? With diversified energy sourcing, we may just find a better way to go.

 

Tookj the day off? I wish, had to do work, can't be spending all my time sitting in front of a computer. I have little time to do that any more, and I am sure I am not alone at that, so try to keep the comments of that nature to yourself, not entirely appropriate. As you said, we are all FTE members, try to keep that respect. Many of us have a life away from FTE too, even if it may not seem that way...

 

The way you bash ADM is the same as many bash the oil companies, they are not the sole proprietors in the ethanol arena, no more than say Exxon is for oil. You are mistaken on the money going to the farmers, in that many invest in these ethanol plants as well, many are cooperative establishments, not corporate. Also, better grain prices help considerably, when around here, the average acre can yield 300 bushels, at say $4 a bushel, thats $1200 right there, one acre. My parent's farm here, is 200 acres, so that would net at an average of say 250 an acre, for loss on the lesser quality ground, is $200,000 if it were all planted in corn, which it isn't. Corn was a major crop here before ethanol was being even thought of, so I doubt it would be much different.

 

Yes, and based on the same article that was just quote on how many gallons of ethanol could be produced per acre, the same article said that more than 70% of all farm land in the United States would have to be dedicated to the production of ethanol in order to meet our current demands.

So, we then have ethanol for fuel. We have very little land left for growing food. Food prices soar. Instead of exporting wheat and other grains, we probably start importing.

Sorry, but unless we are looking at an alternative solution that is viable and can become a replacement, then it's a waste of money and other resources to produce ethanol as a fuel. Without the $0.51 a gallon subsidy, ethanol would cost as much if not more than gasoline. Where's the savings. Our tax dollars are subsidizing it, so we aren't Really paying less at the pump. We could never produce enough ethanol to replace gasoline, so where's the benefit?

We would be much better off taking the money and subsidies invested in ethanol and spending it at the Universities and such on research and developement on true green renewable sources of energy like solar, hydro, wind, nuclear, hydrogen, and others. Hell, ethanol isn't even a band-aid. I could see if we were running out of petroleum in the next 20-30 years, but we aren't.

No, ethanol is where it's at strictly for political reasons. The answer isn't to try and make the combution engine more efficient or the fuel more efficient. The answer is to scrap the idea of a compution type engine. Design new types of motors and means of transferring energy. Ethanol isn't a band-aid, it's just adding salt to the wound and wasting time.

If nothing else makes sense in this argument, and so many people believe that the oil companies and auto makers and the rich are such bad guys, then you really have to ask the question; Why aren't the oil companies and the car manufacturers campaining against ethanol? Why would the oil companies WANT us to use less oil. Why would an auto manufacturer want to retrofit and make a flex fuel vehicle? Do you really think they want lower profits? Unless of course, the auto makers don't have to spend much to make a flex fuel vehicle and can continue selling gas guzzlers as their compromise to meeting higher standards by the EPA. Or if the oil companies know that they will still be producing the same amount of petroleum by using ethanol in the fuel. You're talking about 2 industries that have more political pull than just about any other industry in the country. Why are they basically so in favor of ethanol? They must be if they aren't fighting against it. Later... Mike....