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  #1  
Old 05-26-2007, 08:45 AM
pile_53574 pile_53574 is offline
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Question E25

Did a search, came up no match. So to all you alt fuel guru's out there, my ? is, Can/could I use this in my 69 mustang? It has 302, edelbrock heads, cam, intake, & Carb, Msd ignition w/rev limiter. Timing is advanced a little so I need the higher octane fuel. I have this available locally, but on the pump it says for flex fuel vehicles only. E25 has the octane range i like and the price is acceptable compared to premium fuel at ~$3.50/gal. I asked a buddy who is a very respectable mechanic(he helped me build the motor),but he isn't sure if it would hurt motor or not. i cannot find enough research(or not looking in the right places) about E25. Thanks
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Old 05-26-2007, 10:21 AM
rusty70f100 rusty70f100 is offline
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You could use it, but you'll probably have to rejet the carburetor a little richer. Other than that, I'd say go for it.
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Old 05-26-2007, 11:38 AM
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What do you consider; "The price is acceptable". Almost every report has shown that any combination of gasoline that included ethanol, gets lower gasoline mileage. Some reports show a dramatic difference. If you were running a majority of ethanot, like E85, then the "Possible" ecological advantages "Might" outway the cost difference. But, if some of the reports are correct about getting between 10-25% less gas mileage, then you have to look at what you are truly saving by using E25. Not counting the possible harm to the car.

I.E. You car gets 20 mpg on regular 91 octane gas. Costs $3.50 a gallon. E25 costs $2.65 a gallon, BUT you only get 15 mpg using it. On a full 18 gallon tank, you go from 360 miles to 270 mies. Now, you need 8 more gallons of E25 to make up the 90 miles you lost. That's an additional $21.20 at $2.65 a gallon. Percentages are NOT ALWAYS LINEAR.

So:
91 octane cost you $3.50 times 18 gallons = $63.00
E25 Ethan cost you $2.63 times 18 gallons = $47.25 (25% cheaper than gas)

If ethanol gets 25% less MPG, than instead of 20mpg you get 15mpg.
So:
91 octane gets you 360 miles; E25 gets you 270 miles. Need 8 more gallons of E25 to make up the lost 90 miles. $2.63 times 8 gallons = $21.04

ADD $47.25 for ethanol plus $21.04 for additional needed, = $68.29

So, it costs you $5.29 MORE to drive the same distance.

Of course, if the difference in gas prices isn't as great as 25%, then it will cost you more. If your mileage difference between gas and ethanot mix is less or more, that too will affect it. I am just saying that after you decide to try ethanol, that you figure out if it's really a good choice or not.

I have E10 available here. It's real simple for me. E10 and regular 87 octane (85 octane available for high altitude), is exactly the same price. BUT, going to the supermarkets and mini mart places allow a discount of $0.03 to $0.05 a gallon with their card. So we will assume that E10 is $0.05 cheaper than normal gas. My cars get about 5-10% less gas mileage with E10. I will give the benefit of the doubt and say just 5%. So, my wife's car which normally gets 30mpg get's 28.5mpg with E10. 18 gallons at a $0.05 cheaper is a $0.90 savings. But, I lose 27 miles on a full take of gas 30mpg vs 28.5mpg. So, I need an additonal ALMOST 1 gallon of E10 gas to get me that 27 miles I lost. So, the $0.90 I saved buying the E10 instead of regular gas cost me an additional $3.19 for a gallon of gas. Net change; $-2.21. It COST me $2.21 to save $0.90. These are real numbers. Your numbers may vary. Later... Mike....
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Old 05-27-2007, 03:34 AM
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I take it you are looking for some extra octane more than pure price. If you get everything in the vehicle fuel system compatible with E85 you can run the E10, E25, or E85 whichever is available without damage to the fuel system. Rubber and some plastics don't take well to alcohol. I believe MSD makes some sort of variable timing advance box, PN 8680.
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Old 05-27-2007, 12:07 PM
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I still think knowing the price of E25 for him is important. Unless you are getting equal to or better gas mileage than with 100% gasoline, I am not a big fan of using ethanot. Especially in an older car that definitely wasn't designed for ethanol. Hell, it wasn't designed for unleaded.

Where I live, almost all the gas stations except Exxon and a few independents, have 10% ethanol E10. It is the same exact price as non-ethanol gas at Exxon. The point is; I no for a fact that all 4 of my cars get worse gas mileage with 10% ethanol than with no ethanol. Every research paper printed by companies, scientists, and inviduals, show that you get less mileage with ethanol in your fuel.

So, we have to look at the benefits of using ethanol. If we go to the extreme; 100% ethanol against 100% gasoline; then YES ethanol burns cleaner and is better for the environment. I would even be willing to pay more per gallon knowing that I was helping the environment. Unfortunately, we aren't running on 100% ethanol, so each person needs to experiment for themselves and determine if it is worth it to them. Both environmentally and economically.

Determine how much worse the gas mileage is using % ethanol compared to 100% gas. Determine how much more you have to buy to make up the lost mileage. Determine if you are paying more. Mostly, determine how much better it is for the environment. (Remember, percentages are not always linear).

I.e. You use 10% ethanol (E10). You get 10% less mileage from a tank of gas.
30mpg down to 27mpg. If E10 and regular gas are the same exact price, then it's stupid to buy the E10. You lost 54 miles on a tank using E10. At 27mpg, you now need 2 more gallons to recoup your 54 miles. At $3 a gallon, there's an additional $6 you just spent.

But, let's assume you don't care about the money. Let's look at it from a purely ecological viewpoint. Ethanol doesn't burn 100% clean. But, let's assume that it did. We'll make up some easy numbers to work with. Assume that 100% gasoline put out 100 particles of BAD STUFF into the environment per gallon. That means with E10 ethanol, it was only putting out 90 particles of bad stuff per gallon. (Assuming ethanol burned PERFECTLY CLEAN). That means that our 18 gallon tank above only put out 1620 particles of bad stuff instead of the 1800 particles using pur gas.This is looking good. (Remember however, ethanol can't burn PERFECTLY CLEAN. We are assuming it can). So, we saved 180 particles of garbage. Unfortunately, we need to buy 2 more gallons of this E10 gasoline to make up for the 54 miles we lost. Well, we just got back out 180 particles of bad stuff. In reality, because ethanol DOEN'T burn completely 100% clean, we have actually put MORE particles of BAD STUFF into the environment than with regular gas.

Once you get past the percentage of ethano to gasoline; e.g. E85. Or, the Ethanol burns almost as efficiently as gasoline and you don't lose as much mileage or create as much pollutants as required by the additional fuel needed to recoup loss mileage. And the cost of the ethanol fuel is less expensive than traditional gasoline. Then it becomes as option. So, each person needs to figure this out for themselves. It doesn't matter if it's E10, E25, or E85. Whatever you can try, try. If you get the same exact gas mileage from E? as with 100% gasoline, then it is better for the environment and It's better at reducing our dependency on foreign oil. It also could be cheaper, being it's subsidized by the government. If you get ANY LOWER MILEAGE by using E? in your gasoline, any at all, then it is quite possible that it is costing you more for gas using it. That it is making our dependency for oil abroad worse. That it is actually worse for the environment. Etc... Side by side, ethanol is indeed better for the environment and for our dependency on oil. Unfortunely, except for E85, the majority is gasoline, not ethanol.

I can not speak for each car. I can speak for where I live. Most, we only have E10 available. It is the same price as regular 100% gasoline. If I lose ANY mpg whatsoever, which I do, then financially it COSTS ME MORE to use E10 than regular gas. Environmentally, I am losing about 5-10% on gas mileage using E10, but the E10 isn't improving the output by 10%. So, it is actually worse environmentally. Remember, at the very best, if ethanol burned 100% efficient, it could only benefit as good as it's percentage. I.e. E10 could only improve emissions by 10% max. Same with E25 and E85. Unfortunately, they aren't 100% efficient at burning. Yes, I am against ethanol. Unless the data I have seen can be proven wrong, and ethanol can improve mathematically beyond it's percentage. Again, going past E50 could be a different story. Later... Mike....
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Old 05-27-2007, 03:52 PM
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It's a '69 mustang.. I doubt it's a daily driver. I don't think he much cares about fuel efficiency.. he just wants to know if E25 will work, and if it's a viable alternative to very expensive racing fuel.

Pile.. here's the deal. You'll hear a bunch of hoopla about rubber deterioration, performance issues, etc.. etc.. from ethanol. Now if you were wanting to run E85 I'd say NO WAY... but E25 is only 25% ethanol. Now I can't make any guarantees, but I've heard of people using up to E50 on non flex-fuel vehicles without any problems.

I'm sure one tankful isn't going to hurt anything... just try it and see. Heck "normal" gasoline now is already E10! Now if you plan on using it long term you might want to make sure the fuel hoses and carburator seals, etc are compatible with ethanol (most new materials are)... but if you want to try a tank full and see how it performs... well go for it.

Let us know how it works out.
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Old 05-27-2007, 06:31 PM
Dino@his Dad's Dino@his Dad's is offline
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I'd give it a try

Pile, where is anyone selling E25 ? I haven't seen any of it around here. We have E10 and E85, I don't think that pure gasoline is available in my area. I wouldn't be afraid to try E85 either. All of the stories of engine damage you have heard about from ethanol are pure BS. Ethanol is a wonderful engine fuel, the API just doesn't want you to know. What compression does your engine have ? More is better when playing with the alcohols. DinosaurFan, on work's old 'puter
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Old 05-27-2007, 11:44 PM
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Mazda; my question to the OP was as you mentioned, an alternative to the high priced normal 91 octane gas he normally uses. I was pointing out that "IF" he gets less mpg with E25 than with Non-Ethanol gas, then he would have to calculate whether he was actually saving any money or not.

Some people, and some reports, claim that while ethanol burns cleaner than gasoline, that you don't get as good a MPG as you would with non-ethanol gasoline. Now, depending on the reduction and the price difference between Ethanol enriched gas and non-ethanol gas, will determine if it's economically advantageous or not. Where I live, E10 and non-ethanol gas is exactly the same price. If I lose any mpg at all, then it's NOT WORTH it for me to use the E10 gasoline. No, from a strictly ecological viewpoint, which I am MORE CONCERNED with, it depends on what the difference in MPG, if any, is between E10 and non-ethanol gas on whether E10 is better or worse for the ecology.

I agree 100% that ethanol burns cleaner than gasoline. That is a given and no argument. Having a car that runs on 100% ethanol would be a great thing. Especially if it was better ethanol producing sources other than corn. Plus, get rid of the government subsidies to the Archer Daniels Midlands of the world. This doesn't however mean that 10% ethanol added to gasoline automatically cleans the output of the vehicle by 10%. Assuming both had the same combustion and burning properties, it might. But they don't. Let's do a very simple analogy. If a car had a 10 gallon tank, and it got 10mpg, then it should get 100 miles per tank. So, being water doesn't burn like gasoline does, (We'll call it a zero burn rate), then one should theorize that replacing 1 gallon of gas with 1 gallon of water would mean that the 10 gallon tank (9gas/1water) would only get 90 miles instead of 100. We all know that if you replaced 1/10 of your gas with water, your MPG would drop considerably MORE than 10%.

That's why it's important for each person to find out for themselves how E10, E85, or any other ethanol treated fuel reacts with their engine. Only then can you determine if there is a loss using ethanol, and whether that loss is a detriment financially or to the ecology. Later... Mike....
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Old 05-28-2007, 08:32 AM
pile_53574 pile_53574 is offline
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Yes it is a toy, not daily driver. Just paid $3.55 for Premium 93 octane yesterday, I know e25 is cheaper, I will find out the price today and let you all know. It is available in Monroe, WI. Only about 15 miles away, same place I get my Bio-diesel, they have e10, e25, e85 available.
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Old 05-28-2007, 10:45 PM
pile_53574 pile_53574 is offline
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Prices on Fuel as of today in Monroe WI(Ethanol Plant):
E85 $2.33/Gal
E10 $3.33/Gal
E25 $2.99/Gal
B20 Biodiesel $2.86/Gal
93 Octane $3.55/Gal

These are pump prices, with a card from the plant there is a 3 cent discount. Just to let you all know.

Looks like from the other threads I might have started something, Just wanted to know if this would hurt my engine, that's all!
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Old 05-28-2007, 11:10 PM
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You're going to have both answers depending on who answers. Some will say that ethanol won't harm your car at all. Some will say that it isn't that good on them.

Personally, I'd have to look at how much I was driving the car. If I was putting on a couple hundred miles a week going to work, then the cost of the E85 would be tempting. Being that you admit that it's more of a toy and only taken out on ocassion, I would say stick with the regular gas. New cars have computers to assist, plus replacement parts are a lot more available. As you can see on my signature block, I have a 66 mustang 95% original with the 289 V8. I would but E10 in it being that is mostly available. I won't put in anything higher than that. I don't put on many miles at all on it, so the cost isn't a big concern. It's bad enough that there isn't lead in the gas. That mustang definitely was not meant to ride on 85% ethanol. That's just my $0.0248398583. Later... Mike.....
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Old 06-04-2007, 02:39 PM
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you will want to make sure your fuel lines are good, I would replace any rubber fuel line with new alchohol friendly rubber and add a good in line fuel filter to catch all the gunk in the gas tank that will get flushed out. You should re jet the carb for any thing over E10, best bet would be to buy the Edelbrock E85 carb and run E85 with it's 105 octane.
The E85 will clean up the carbon in the motor and after about 1000 miles she should run better than new, if the engine is origanal.
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Old 06-04-2007, 02:43 PM
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Napa has some "multi-fuel compatibility" fuel injection hose that works great with E85. It's expensive, but IMHO worth the investment. That and one of those Edelbrock E85 carburetors and you'd be set.
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Old 06-04-2007, 05:22 PM
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They say ethanol will be corrosive to aluminum and can cause some rubbers to swell and/or deteriorate. Most O-rings in a FFV are made of Viton rather than neoprene for this reason.

But, I've known lots of people that are blending their own ethanol/gasoline ratios to achieve a certain octane, and jetting their carbs accordingly, and not one has shown any problems of any kind. There's a farmer near me that's running E85 in his old John Deere "B" (the old "Johnny Popper" 2-cylinder), and he's had great success with it. I helped him tune for it, since with ethanol, you can't go by plug color, or whether or not it pings, or anything like that...You just tune for maximum power, and easy starts. Ethanol doesn't ping under load like gasoline, and doesn't discolor the spark plugs much at all. Only way to really know if you're running lean is by the exhaust and/or combustion chamber temperature. At first this tractor was way lean, and the exhaust pipe (nice shiny chrome) turned blue! Turned the main jet a half turn out, and it started to run smoother under load, and didn't seem to be quite as hot out the pipe. Not 100% sure if it's dead on or not, but it runs great.

The place you're getting the E25 must be similar to the stations I fill up at. In the ground, they have one tank of straight ethanol, and one tank of straight gasoline, and the pump changes the blend ratio for E10, E20, and E85.
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Old 06-04-2007, 10:18 PM
rusty70f100 rusty70f100 is offline
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When we consider that automotive pistons are made of aluminum, including the FFV ones, I highly doubt that ethanol is corrosive to aluminum in an automotive application.
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Old 06-04-2007, 10:18 PM
 
 
 
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