Mudder engine plans
#1
05-18-2007, 09:47 AM
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Mudder engine plans
In one of the threads, mention was made of a strong running 460 set aside for the project. How far do we expect to take this? We could take it up to 425-450HP in a pretty straightforward fashion (read "money"), or is the plan to keep it pretty much stock? What are the rules for this class?
(stolen from 460ford.com)
(stolen from 460ford.com)
750cfm Carb
Edelbrock Performer, Performer RPM, or Weiand Stealth
Hydraulic flat tappet cam with approx 215-220* intake/225-230* exhaust duration. Lift should be in the .525"+ area to take advantage of the quicker lobes allowed by larger diameter lifters in Fords.
Examples would be the Comp XE262H or Lunati 61602
Compression should be around 9:0-9.5:1
Stock rods and crank can be used with good resizing and good bolts used
Heads can be DOVE or D3VE
Exhaust valves should be increased to 1.75" size
Intake valve size does not need to be increased at this level, stainless valves are suggested over heavily used stockers
Port work on the exhaust side should be considered MANDATORY at this level. Thermactor removed, bowl blended to the larger seat, casting flash removed, exhaust bolt boss flattened. The better the work, the better it will run. To get to a real 450hp level, it would be very beneficial to at least clean up the intake side, the seat to bowl blend at minimum. A good 3 angle valve job is mandatory. A D3VE head does have enough potential for this build but may require more short turn work on the exhaust side to match the DOVE. An aggressive cam like the Lunati probably requires the screw in stud conversion on the D3VE as well.
Exhaust should be minimum 1 3/4" headers to dual 2.5" pipes with good flowing mufflers. Manifolds will absolutely not allow the engine to perform as expected.
Roller rockers are not mandatory, but suggested. A HV oil pump is not required at this level, as the RPM level doesn't dictate loose tolerances. Standard .0025 and .0030 on rods and main should work fine, a bit tighter would probably be fine as well since the motor shouldn't see anything over 5500rpm.
Good machining and port work should allow a motor like this to last forever, creating a solid 425-450hp at around 4500rpm and 520-530ft lbs near 3500rpm.
Edelbrock Performer, Performer RPM, or Weiand Stealth
Hydraulic flat tappet cam with approx 215-220* intake/225-230* exhaust duration. Lift should be in the .525"+ area to take advantage of the quicker lobes allowed by larger diameter lifters in Fords.
Examples would be the Comp XE262H or Lunati 61602
Compression should be around 9:0-9.5:1
Stock rods and crank can be used with good resizing and good bolts used
Heads can be DOVE or D3VE
Exhaust valves should be increased to 1.75" size
Intake valve size does not need to be increased at this level, stainless valves are suggested over heavily used stockers
Port work on the exhaust side should be considered MANDATORY at this level. Thermactor removed, bowl blended to the larger seat, casting flash removed, exhaust bolt boss flattened. The better the work, the better it will run. To get to a real 450hp level, it would be very beneficial to at least clean up the intake side, the seat to bowl blend at minimum. A good 3 angle valve job is mandatory. A D3VE head does have enough potential for this build but may require more short turn work on the exhaust side to match the DOVE. An aggressive cam like the Lunati probably requires the screw in stud conversion on the D3VE as well.
Exhaust should be minimum 1 3/4" headers to dual 2.5" pipes with good flowing mufflers. Manifolds will absolutely not allow the engine to perform as expected.
Roller rockers are not mandatory, but suggested. A HV oil pump is not required at this level, as the RPM level doesn't dictate loose tolerances. Standard .0025 and .0030 on rods and main should work fine, a bit tighter would probably be fine as well since the motor shouldn't see anything over 5500rpm.
Good machining and port work should allow a motor like this to last forever, creating a solid 425-450hp at around 4500rpm and 520-530ft lbs near 3500rpm.
#2
05-18-2007, 10:24 AM
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We;ll know a little more about what we're working with when I get the engine apart, I think my cutters will cut hardened seats after talking to a few guys, if so, then the 3 angle job will get done....but I don't know what heads are on it, most likely not the DOVE heads as Dan pointed out, but I should be able to work them enough to take advantage of that type of cam...in fact we were discussing those types of specs a few weeks ago.
Good thing about a big cubic inch engine is you can run some cam in it and still have it idle smoothly, keep lots of vacuum, and still make some power.
My 454 ('70 LS5 engine) was factory rated at 390hp-550ft/lbs....If I recall the cam specs the .050 duration was in the 210/212 range and the lift around .480, but CR is 10.25 and the heads on it are much better than the 460's, I'm sure...but, if we're able to get the 460's heads to flow decently, run a better/newer cam design (old ones were kinda lazy) with a bit more lift, we should easily see 400hp/500ft/lbs, what ever else we can squee out of it on the cheap, we'll do.
My hope is the bottom end looks good and we won't need to do any machine work ($$), because once we start, the money will pile up quickly.
I like the ide of the screw in studs on the heads, it'll give me an excuse to set my Mill up to knock down the valve guide bosses and bore some good holes for the studs.
When we get to that point, we'll have a "tapping" party....I don't look forward to tapping 32 7/16th holes by hand by myself...might be able to find an industrial type of tap for the mill, but I don't know if mine can be set up to tap holes properly, since the down feed is hydraulic and not geared to the head speed.
Good thing about a big cubic inch engine is you can run some cam in it and still have it idle smoothly, keep lots of vacuum, and still make some power.
My 454 ('70 LS5 engine) was factory rated at 390hp-550ft/lbs....If I recall the cam specs the .050 duration was in the 210/212 range and the lift around .480, but CR is 10.25 and the heads on it are much better than the 460's, I'm sure...but, if we're able to get the 460's heads to flow decently, run a better/newer cam design (old ones were kinda lazy) with a bit more lift, we should easily see 400hp/500ft/lbs, what ever else we can squee out of it on the cheap, we'll do.
My hope is the bottom end looks good and we won't need to do any machine work ($$), because once we start, the money will pile up quickly.
I like the ide of the screw in studs on the heads, it'll give me an excuse to set my Mill up to knock down the valve guide bosses and bore some good holes for the studs.
When we get to that point, we'll have a "tapping" party....I don't look forward to tapping 32 7/16th holes by hand by myself...might be able to find an industrial type of tap for the mill, but I don't know if mine can be set up to tap holes properly, since the down feed is hydraulic and not geared to the head speed.
#3
05-18-2007, 11:24 AM
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Originally Posted by 3Mike6
My hope is the bottom end looks good and we won't need to do any machine work ($$), because once we start, the money will pile up quickly.
Hot tank and magniflux (sp?) wouldn't be a bad idea. If it was all torn down, any idea how much that costs these days?
#4
05-18-2007, 11:56 AM
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Last block I had done abuot 2 years ago, was like 80 bucks...I know it was less than a C-note.
The "tear down" will only go so far as to see if we need to go farther-hope that makes sense
I/e, once the heads are off we can get a good look at the bores, I can mic the taper at the top...maybe, just maybe...there's minimal or no ridge <insert crossed fingers here> and if the rod and mains look good and the thrust is still okay and our crank is fine <again insert crossed fingers> we can do a shadetree rebuild on it....new oil pump, mains and rod bearings and maybe hone and re-ring it...I don't know if my ridge remover will go big enough for the 460's bore though...also timing is a factor as to what we want to do...a full tear down and parts replacements will take some time, I figure the head work will take me at least a week, maybe two, add another few weeks if we get into the bottom end.
The "tear down" will only go so far as to see if we need to go farther-hope that makes sense
I/e, once the heads are off we can get a good look at the bores, I can mic the taper at the top...maybe, just maybe...there's minimal or no ridge <insert crossed fingers here> and if the rod and mains look good and the thrust is still okay and our crank is fine <again insert crossed fingers> we can do a shadetree rebuild on it....new oil pump, mains and rod bearings and maybe hone and re-ring it...I don't know if my ridge remover will go big enough for the 460's bore though...also timing is a factor as to what we want to do...a full tear down and parts replacements will take some time, I figure the head work will take me at least a week, maybe two, add another few weeks if we get into the bottom end.
#5
05-18-2007, 12:53 PM
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Right now our main goal should be to get the truck running - we were supposed to run it this spring.
In addition, if the engine needs a lot of machine work it would be cheaper to buy a different block. The price of gas has driven the cost of a 460 down to almost give-away levels.
I will have to look back through the posts, but it seems Leroy suggested 450 hp without a lot of modifications. We still need to come up with a 4 bbl intake and the headers. And, of course, the porting.
I like Leroy's description - with 4:10 gears and 33 inch tires, being able to spin them "at will".
Remember, there is no reason we can not pull the engine and build it up this winter should we decide to race it again next year. Right now our goal is to be faster than the stock trucks the Las Vegas Boys are running, and a couple of smaller engine trucks from the guys in the Southern California Chapter.
In addition, if the engine needs a lot of machine work it would be cheaper to buy a different block. The price of gas has driven the cost of a 460 down to almost give-away levels.
I will have to look back through the posts, but it seems Leroy suggested 450 hp without a lot of modifications. We still need to come up with a 4 bbl intake and the headers. And, of course, the porting.
I like Leroy's description - with 4:10 gears and 33 inch tires, being able to spin them "at will".
Remember, there is no reason we can not pull the engine and build it up this winter should we decide to race it again next year. Right now our goal is to be faster than the stock trucks the Las Vegas Boys are running, and a couple of smaller engine trucks from the guys in the Southern California Chapter.
#6
05-18-2007, 01:59 PM
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#7
05-18-2007, 03:04 PM
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When we rebuilt my son's 360 last year, I pulled together a couple of friends and we did the final assembly in three days. Granted, it sat around for a couple of weeks while I gathered the group of friends. Oh, and these weren't particularly long days. We would start at the crack of noon. Oh, and the beer slowed us down a bit. 
The block and heads were just back fresh from the machine shop job and we had a bunch of clean parts to work with. The assembly is fast if everything is ready and you have the tools. I don't have all the tools, but I know some folks (they guy I'm thinking of is a 225 slant six fan) and you guys probably have a bunch of stuff. It's getting the iron back from the machine shop that took the time.
The block and heads were just back fresh from the machine shop job and we had a bunch of clean parts to work with. The assembly is fast if everything is ready and you have the tools. I don't have all the tools, but I know some folks (they guy I'm thinking of is a 225 slant six fan) and you guys probably have a bunch of stuff. It's getting the iron back from the machine shop that took the time.
Last edited by AnOldDog; 05-18-2007 at 03:39 PM.
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#8
05-18-2007, 04:46 PM
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Originally Posted by AnOldDog
.. . . I don't have all the tools, but I know some folks (they guy I'm thinking of is a 225 slant six fan) and you guys probably have a bunch of stuff. It's getting the iron back from the machine shop that took the time.
The big item we will be doing is the porting - Mike will do that, with all of us helping. My books suggest we can pick up 20 horses just by working over the exhaust passage. They also suggest we port match the intake, but state that any more work on the intake passage is no great help.
I am not sure about the three angle valve job - I don't understand it. Perhaps someone could explain what it is and why it is better.
All I have ever done is hand lap the valves.
Leroy had some suggestions as to the cam - we will need a new cam and lifters, and should look into different rockers. As Mike is so experienced with Chevy power, I may overlook him adding Chevy rockers to our Ford.
Anyway, maybe once we start the porting we will do a clinic - anyone who wants to soup up and engine needs to understand basic porting.
#9
05-18-2007, 05:50 PM
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The 3 angle valve jod is two cuts on the seat, one on the valve...the more "angles" cut, the smoother the air transition is....If the valves would seat and stay properly, guys would radius the seat for no "angles" at all for smoothest transition...for all I know, top fuelers do it? But they only live a 1/4mile at a time before tear downs.
#10
05-18-2007, 09:28 PM
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Originally Posted by WillyB
Does his socket set slant too? How about his torque wrench, does it adjust to make up for the slant?
We've worked together so far rebuilding three ford engines. A '66 Mustang (289), a '95 Tbird (4.6), and a '73 highboy (360). I haven't run into any tools he didn't already have other than machine tools. He is a retired air force mechanic and worked as a civvy mechanic for many years after that.He does this for fun these days.
#11
05-19-2007, 11:11 AM
For the record, we already have headers (they're at Mike's) courtesy of Tim. And has anybody looked to see if we already have screw-in rocker studs? Some 460s came with them (I think). I recall getting an engine from the wrecking yard one time that was either a 460 or 429 and it had factory screw-in studs. The engine wasn't anything special as I recall. I yanked the screw-in studs off and still have them (heck, I even know where they are!) Not that we really want to use it but I just remembered that I have a factory 4-bbl manifold for a 385-series engine. (It may have come off that same engine if I recall correctly...)
BTW Clint, a typical 3-angle valve job is where you cut your seat to the usual 45º angle, and then make a steeper 60º cut on the inside of the seat and then a shallow 30º cut on the outside which makes a smoother transition for the gasses flowing around it. Most builders (as I understand it) will leave the valves alone, just taking the usual 45º cut. Actually, the valve should be cut to 44º to give a tighter seal. My old Sioux valve grinder has the valve angle settings marked this way, 1º off on the most common valve angles.
Here's what a typical 3-angle valve job looks like:
There are also 5 and 7 angle valve jobs, but they require the purchase of more seat cutters than most of us home mechanics have (and they ain't cheap!)
BTW Clint, a typical 3-angle valve job is where you cut your seat to the usual 45º angle, and then make a steeper 60º cut on the inside of the seat and then a shallow 30º cut on the outside which makes a smoother transition for the gasses flowing around it. Most builders (as I understand it) will leave the valves alone, just taking the usual 45º cut. Actually, the valve should be cut to 44º to give a tighter seal. My old Sioux valve grinder has the valve angle settings marked this way, 1º off on the most common valve angles.
Here's what a typical 3-angle valve job looks like:
There are also 5 and 7 angle valve jobs, but they require the purchase of more seat cutters than most of us home mechanics have (and they ain't cheap!)
Last edited by TigerDan; 05-19-2007 at 06:41 PM.
#12
05-19-2007, 03:58 PM
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#13
05-19-2007, 04:45 PM
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Originally Posted by 3Mike6
I was about to type "what did I just say"... . . .
It sure looks to me that it is a whole lot of work and expense for a very small gain. Also, does the valve seat area remain the same, or is it smaller and therefore quicker to burn?
And yes, Dan, screw in rocker studs are a feature of these engines.
#14
05-19-2007, 05:02 PM
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Another item to consider it the pistons. If possible, of course, we will want to keep the ones in there. But if we have to change them . . .
The stock piston has a very deep dish - giving a compression ratio of about 8.5 to 1. Super Cobra Jets came with a flat top piston that gave a ratio of about 10.5 to one. Aftermarket pistons are available for about any compression ratio in between.
I expect the stock low compression pistons are why this engine gives such lousy mileage, but the high compression pistons would require super premium gas and who wants to fight that in an off-road vehicle? What ratio should we try for?
The stock piston has a very deep dish - giving a compression ratio of about 8.5 to 1. Super Cobra Jets came with a flat top piston that gave a ratio of about 10.5 to one. Aftermarket pistons are available for about any compression ratio in between.
I expect the stock low compression pistons are why this engine gives such lousy mileage, but the high compression pistons would require super premium gas and who wants to fight that in an off-road vehicle? What ratio should we try for?
#15
05-19-2007, 05:56 PM
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