Wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy back when I got my first drivers license,the way it worked,was if you took the road test in an automatic tranny car,the license had a restriction on it:"AUTOMATIC TRANSMISSION ONLY".If you used a stick there was NO restriction noted.This was in Florida back in 1960 or so.
Leo
Don't get me started. Cars are too easy to drive nowadays. I could talk for hours about the USA's inadequate driver education. If we actually required people to pay attention while driving maybe we could build more efficent roads? I'd say about 75% of the stop signs in the USA should be yeild signs but that would require drivers having to look and analyse what they see while driving. Roundabouts (traffic circles with the yeild/right-of-way switched) are more efficent (when used correctly) but americans don't understand them so they just cause more problems here. And most speedlimits are a joke for multiple reasons.
I know, whether I can afford a NEW truck is one thing but Ford guarantees no sale of an F150 to ME if there's no clutch available with a V8 or diesel. Also if electronics like traction control and stability control become standard, that will also lose the sale.
Hope this isn't too far off topic, but I have to say, both my trucks do not have ABS, stability control, or traction control, and I have never been in a situation where I felt I needed it. I have been in the odd situation that pushed the limits of driver and vehicle, but a clear head is all that I ever needed to stay safe.
Computer controlled safety systems are just a way to take more control out of the hands of the driver (I preffer auto, but there should be a choice). The way to avoid traffic fatalities is to have the situational awareness to anticipate potential hazards, and not take control of the vehicle out of the hands of the driver.
I know when to back off the brake to avoid wheel lockup and remain in control, and I don't want the truck thinking for me.
The real solution here is driver training, and not a futile attempt at making the vehicle smarter.
__________________
1986 F250HD Ex cab Fresh built up 6.9L diesel Lariat AC leather seats power everything w/full cluster, sterling rear 3.08LS gears, E4OD trans, ram intake ATS 088 turbo
1986 F150 Ex cab Lariat rollercam 5.0L on LPG AOD trans 3.55 gears 390 000Ks
The real solution here is driver training, and not a futile attempt at making the vehicle smarter.
To say that is just plain ignorant. Have you ever driven in snow? There are many times where ABS is far superior to conventional brakes.
A year and a half ago, I was in a minor fender bender with my '05 Mustang. There was a lot of snow on the ground, but the roads were not bad. Snow on the shoulders, but the driving lanes were clear. The car in front of me was doing 35, and I wanted to do about 45, we were in a 55 MPH speed zone. I checked the left lane for oncoming trafic, sped up, and moved over to pass the car. As I was right next to the car, a Chevy Trailblazer in a parking lot on the left side of the road made a right turn without looking, and almost plowed into me head on. It was either hit the car to my right, the car in front of me, or take my chances with the road side. I steered left, and once I was clear of the oncoming car, I slammed on the brakes.
Here's where the ABS came into play. At this point, I had lateral momentum in reference to the road, and I was quickley sliding off the road. I was able to maintain enough steering control to miss a culvert, barely clip a mailbox, go between a phone pole and a fire hydrant (about 1 1/2 feet on either side) and come to rest not 5 feet from a pond.
If I did not have ABS I would have either slid off the road and hit the culvert, which would have totalled my car at 40 MPH, spun sideways and gone into the telephone pole I nearly missed and probably killed myself, or I would have not been able to use the brakes, kept steering control, and landed in a pond.
I understand this was a strange situation, but I stand behind the fact that there is NO human driver that can do that without ABS. I grew up driving in snow, and I have lots of experience in it, both with and without ABS. This particular time, it could have saved my life, as I most likely would have hit that pole sideways.
__________________
Tom,
Current truck - 2007 F150 Screw 4x4
Previous Fords:
2005 Mustang 4.0 auto
2003 F150 4x4 r/c auto
To say that is just plain ignorant. Have you ever driven in snow? There are many times where ABS is far superior to conventional brakes.
A year and a half ago, I was in a minor fender bender with my '05 Mustang. There was a lot of snow on the ground, but the roads were not bad. Snow on the shoulders, but the driving lanes were clear. The car in front of me was doing 35, and I wanted to do about 45, we were in a 55 MPH speed zone. I checked the left lane for oncoming trafic, sped up, and moved over to pass the car. As I was right next to the car, a Chevy Trailblazer in a parking lot on the left side of the road made a right turn without looking, and almost plowed into me head on. It was either hit the car to my right, the car in front of me, or take my chances with the road side. I steered left, and once I was clear of the oncoming car, I slammed on the brakes.
Here's where the ABS came into play. At this point, I had lateral momentum in reference to the road, and I was quickley sliding off the road. I was able to maintain enough steering control to miss a culvert, barely clip a mailbox, go between a phone pole and a fire hydrant (about 1 1/2 feet on either side) and come to rest not 5 feet from a pond.
If I did not have ABS I would have either slid off the road and hit the culvert, which would have totalled my car at 40 MPH, spun sideways and gone into the telephone pole I nearly missed and probably killed myself, or I would have not been able to use the brakes, kept steering control, and landed in a pond.
I understand this was a strange situation, but I stand behind the fact that there is NO human driver that can do that without ABS. I grew up driving in snow, and I have lots of experience in it, both with and without ABS. This particular time, it could have saved my life, as I most likely would have hit that pole sideways.
I say what I'm about to after 27 years and a couple of million miles in AK, driving everything from a Samurai to Semi Trucks:
Under the wrong circumstances, ABS is the most dangerous thing that can happen to your vehicle. In situations where there is no traction to be had, they just don't work. The brakes don't apply. How does that help me? Where I'm from, the road is ice pack for a lot of the year, and ABS will send you through an intersection, even if you approach it at 5mph. There are times when you need to get over towards the shoulder or berm and eat up some loose snow and let your brakes skid if need be. SOMETHING, ANYTHING, other than the brakes not applying at all. If it's so slick that you have to choose between brakeing and steering, then choose; but I want the choice: the computer choosing for me can be deadly.
I think cars and trucks SHOULD come with ABS, but there should be an off switch in the event you are using the vehicle on pure ice, or off road, or somewhere where the driver knows not to hit the brakes if he doesn't have traction.
Don't idiot-proof cars, weed out the idiots.
__________________
2007 Ford F150 XL 2WD
4.2L V6, 5spd, 3.55:1
Average MPG: 20.6
aiming for 25 mpg
To say that is just plain ignorant. Have you ever driven in snow? There are many times where ABS is far superior to conventional brakes.
A year and a half ago, I was in a minor fender bender with my '05 Mustang. There was a lot of snow on the ground, but the roads were not bad. Snow on the shoulders, but the driving lanes were clear. The car in front of me was doing 35, and I wanted to do about 45, we were in a 55 MPH speed zone. I checked the left lane for oncoming trafic, sped up, and moved over to pass the car. As I was right next to the car, a Chevy Trailblazer in a parking lot on the left side of the road made a right turn without looking, and almost plowed into me head on. It was either hit the car to my right, the car in front of me, or take my chances with the road side. I steered left, and once I was clear of the oncoming car, I slammed on the brakes.
Here's where the ABS came into play. At this point, I had lateral momentum in reference to the road, and I was quickley sliding off the road. I was able to maintain enough steering control to miss a culvert, barely clip a mailbox, go between a phone pole and a fire hydrant (about 1 1/2 feet on either side) and come to rest not 5 feet from a pond.
If I did not have ABS I would have either slid off the road and hit the culvert, which would have totalled my car at 40 MPH, spun sideways and gone into the telephone pole I nearly missed and probably killed myself, or I would have not been able to use the brakes, kept steering control, and landed in a pond.
I understand this was a strange situation, but I stand behind the fact that there is NO human driver that can do that without ABS. I grew up driving in snow, and I have lots of experience in it, both with and without ABS. This particular time, it could have saved my life, as I most likely would have hit that pole sideways.
You are in right to disagree, but I am not ignorant. And I am glad to hear you came through that near miss OK.
Yes I have driven in snow, and even at 55-60 mph on a thin layer of it, it is still possible to remain in control (not that it was very smart to try it). I have driven in rough gravel at those speeds as well and had to deal with the odd monsoon weather at freeway speeds, and in all those situations I was greatfull for NOT having ABS.
In all those situations, traction will be less, but the driver has to know that, and make decisions accordingly since a vehicle will not behave the same way on snow as it would on dry blacktop.
The big problem with ABS, is that in many cases, on loose ground, the breaking distance is actually longer than an non ABS system. This still gives the trained driver the edge IMO, since a controlled slide(s) will kill off speed sooner, and knowing how the vehicle will behave will still allow some one to steer out of harms way just as well as with ABS.
I'm not saying ABS is a bad idea in general, I just don't like the fact that its not optional. If I was faced with buying a new vehicle, there would have to be a switch to lock out the system.
What I will say, is that driver training is more improtant than any traction control system that is out there.
__________________
1986 F250HD Ex cab Fresh built up 6.9L diesel Lariat AC leather seats power everything w/full cluster, sterling rear 3.08LS gears, E4OD trans, ram intake ATS 088 turbo
1986 F150 Ex cab Lariat rollercam 5.0L on LPG AOD trans 3.55 gears 390 000Ks
I drove a Nissan Titan with traction and stability control and though it was fun at first (til the novelty wore off) hammering it in 6 inches of snow and no wheelspin, it quickly wore off.
We had black ice that day and I couldn't wait to get the F150 back (was getting a starter put in) as I couldn't tell what the road was like underneath me as the computer kicked in. I found slow speed left turns weird. It felt like when you slide on ice (That slow kinda black ice slide towards the side feeling) but I was told by the owner "It's the stability kicking in".
I think they were shocked when I said I couldn't wait to get the Ford back but the Ford I can feel what it's doing and control it with my left foot. And I have ALWAYS prefered rear drive over FWD in snow. And with 4 winter tires, there wasn't much that truck couldn't go through!!
I DO agree with abs though but it isn't the "saviour" people like to say it is. I personally consider it a failure on my part when it kicks in as I can drive on ice without it doing so most of the time. I WILL say that there ARE moments when I have had to floor the pedal and let it do it's job. LOL.
The big problem with ABS, is that in many cases, on loose ground, the breaking distance is actually longer than an non ABS system.
This is the reason many people think ABS is bad. ABS isn't designed to shorten the breaking distance no manufacturers clame that it does AFAIK. Yet magazines and websites that test cars continue to only test breaking distance in a straight line. ABS allows the driver to continue stearing while breaking at near maximum break effency. Stearing around an obsticle is a much beter idea then just trying to stop before hitting it.
Growing up and living in Vermont I learned to drive in and have many years of experiance driving in heavy snow and ice. I've had three different vehicles without ABS and two with ABS. I can deffently say in my opinion there is absolutly no reason to not have ABS. With a proficent driver ABS will always be safer. With a bad driver ABS or not the driver is the weak link.
This is the reason many people think ABS is bad. ABS isn't designed to shorten the breaking distance no manufacturers clame that it does AFAIK. Yet magazines and websites that test cars continue to only test breaking distance in a straight line. ABS allows the driver to continue stearing while breaking at near maximum break effency. Stearing around an obsticle is a much beter idea then just trying to stop before hitting it.
Growing up and living in Vermont I learned to drive in and have many years of experiance driving in heavy snow and ice. I've had three different vehicles without ABS and two with ABS. I can deffently say in my opinion there is absolutly no reason to not have ABS. With a proficent driver ABS will always be safer. With a bad driver ABS or not the driver is the weak link.
And that pretty much sums it up. yes, without it, the tires can dig down better in snow but in the REAL WORLD it works. Unlike traction and stability control ABS is a valid safety device. Most people don't know how to use it properly.
And you're right. It was NEVER said to shorten distances, it was designed to retain steering as most people lock up and close their eyes in an accident!! Which is why accidents went up with abs as the "masses" tailgated even more than they did before thinking it would stop faster. HAHAHA!! Jokes on them.
I have 20+ years experience driving everything from motorcycles to 18 wheel tankers in every kind of weather you can imagine and you can put me in the no ABS camp. I don't care about the theory, I just know that I can predict how a vehicle will respond to a certain situation better without it.
First let me say that you can include me in one of the ranks that will not be buying a new F-150 if they do not offer a V-8 and a manual trans when the new trucks come out. The wifey's 2002 F-150 will be due replacement buy then and she like me will not drive anything but a manual truck. If Ford chooses not to offer a manual option we will be moving her up to a super duty or I'll give her my f-250 and get a new one for myself As far as ABS is concerned there was a situation a couple of years ago when the ABS in my F-350 darned near killed me. I was going to work early one morning and there was a light snow covering on the road and I wasn't having any trouble keeping traction around turns or hills but when I came to a long twisty section of the road that dropped down a long hill to a sharp turn and it was on the windward side of the road it was a solid sheet of ice. I touched the brakes and I swear the truck picked up speed as the ABS took over. With the sharp turn coming up quick I had to do something as I didn't want to go over the hillside and eat the power wire tower that awaited me through a short section of woods. I began to frantically pump the brakes in a attempt to fool the computer into locking the brakes up as the ABS wasn't doing squat. Well fortunatley it worked and I regained control of the truck just in time to make the turn. The road was so icy that there was a car at the bottom of the hill that had wrecked into the guard rail and I was able to spin her car around in the middle of the road by just pushing on it to straigten her out. But anyway as others have stated there should be a way for those of us who choose to to be able to negate the ABS when needed to contol the situation. Getting back to the trans option deal the with most of the cars and more and more trucks every day being automatic only it's almost like a dumbing down of society making everything in our lives automatic and taking independent thoughts out of the process. Drive safe everyone. Dave
Aww crud, what can of worms did I open here lol? Weren't we supposed to be talking about trannies?
Quote:
dumbing down of society making everything in our lives automatic and taking independent thoughts out of the process
110Dave, sometimes I joke about that: with drivers getting dumber, cars have to get smarter so we don't all kill ourselfes out there, as I said just a joke.
The situation you describe is exactly why I don't want ABS in my ride. The most adaptable safety computer is the one between our ears.
The theory of ABS is to favor steering over decelleration, and it will continue to make that choice no matter the situation. If you as the driver were allowed to make that choice, it could have made the difference in your case.
There are cases where steering is more important than stopping distance, but who should really be making that desicion? The ABS computer or the driver?
__________________
1986 F250HD Ex cab Fresh built up 6.9L diesel Lariat AC leather seats power everything w/full cluster, sterling rear 3.08LS gears, E4OD trans, ram intake ATS 088 turbo
1986 F150 Ex cab Lariat rollercam 5.0L on LPG AOD trans 3.55 gears 390 000Ks
I disagree about the longer stopping distances. I have been reading Motor Trend and Car and Driver for years now, and I remember there was one article, comparing 3 similar cars, and one of them did not have ABS. When they got into discussing the braking distances, they explained that one of the cars did not have ABS, thus it had a significantly longer stopping distance because their drivers could not modulate braking force as quickly or accurately as the ABS.
This is reviewing a 2004 Mitsubishi Evo. Look at the bottom of the page, and look at the specs. Lists two stopping distances, with ABS and without ABS...the one with ABS stopped 8 feet shorter than the one without.
"During 1988-91, NHTSA performed two extensive series of stopping tests involving vehicles with four-wheel ABS, on various road surfaces. The tests confirmed that ABS was highly effective in preventing yawing and allowing the driver to steer the car during panic braking. Stopping distances decreased substantially with four-wheel ABS on wet surfaces, but decreased only slightly on dry pavement and increased considerably on gravel"
I disagree about the longer stopping distances. I have been reading Motor Trend and Car and Driver for years now,...
You can keep your articles, I will go with my own personal experience. And in my experience ABS does not do what the articles say it will. They must be using some real incompetant drivers in these tests if the ABS is doing better than drivers decisions can.
I disagree about the longer stopping distances. I have been reading Motor Trend and Car and Driver for years now, and I remember there was one article, comparing 3 similar cars, and one of them did not have ABS. When they got into discussing the braking distances, they explained that one of the cars did not have ABS, thus it had a significantly longer stopping distance because their drivers could not modulate braking force as quickly or accurately as the ABS.
This is reviewing a 2004 Mitsubishi Evo. Look at the bottom of the page, and look at the specs. Lists two stopping distances, with ABS and without ABS...the one with ABS stopped 8 feet shorter than the one without.
"During 1988-91, NHTSA performed two extensive series of stopping tests involving vehicles with four-wheel ABS, on various road surfaces. The tests confirmed that ABS was highly effective in preventing yawing and allowing the driver to steer the car during panic braking. Stopping distances decreased substantially with four-wheel ABS on wet surfaces, but decreased only slightly on dry pavement and increased considerably on gravel"
On pavement or dirt, sure. Just don't try to stop on ice pack, you're wasting your time. ABS is OK, especially for those who don't know what to do in bad weather, but it should have an off switch for the weather the designers don't think people drive in.
__________________
2007 Ford F150 XL 2WD
4.2L V6, 5spd, 3.55:1
Average MPG: 20.6
aiming for 25 mpg
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Lariat AC leather seats power everything w/full cluster, sterling rear 3.08LS gears, E4OD trans, ram intake ATS 088 turbo
As far as ABS is concerned there was a situation a couple of years ago when the ABS in my F-350 darned near killed me. I was going to work early one morning and there was a light snow covering on the road and I wasn't having any trouble keeping traction around turns or hills but when I came to a long twisty section of the road that dropped down a long hill to a sharp turn and it was on the windward side of the road it was a solid sheet of ice. I touched the brakes and I swear the truck picked up speed as the ABS took over. With the sharp turn coming up quick I had to do something as I didn't want to go over the hillside and eat the power wire tower that awaited me through a short section of woods. I began to frantically pump the brakes in a attempt to fool the computer into locking the brakes up as the ABS wasn't doing squat. Well fortunatley it worked and I regained control of the truck just in time to make the turn. The road was so icy that there was a car at the bottom of the hill that had wrecked into the guard rail and I was able to spin her car around in the middle of the road by just pushing on it to straigten her out. But anyway as others have stated there should be a way for those of us who choose to to be able to negate the ABS when needed to contol the situation. Getting back to the trans option deal the with most of the cars and more and more trucks every day being automatic only it's almost like a dumbing down of society making everything in our lives automatic and taking independent thoughts out of the process. Drive safe everyone. Dave
lol? Weren't we supposed to be talking about trannies? 
