Go Back   Ford Truck Enthusiasts Forums > Diesel > Bio-diesel, Propane & Alternative Diesel Engine Fuels
Sign in using an external account
Register Forgot Password?


Welcome to Ford-Trucks Forums!
Welcome to Ford-Trucks.com.

You are currently viewing our forums as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join the Ford-Trucks Forums community today!





 
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 04-19-2007, 07:24 PM
PETE'S_6.0PSD PETE'S_6.0PSD is offline
Postmaster
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,036
PETE'S_6.0PSD has a great reputation on FTE.PETE'S_6.0PSD has a great reputation on FTE.PETE'S_6.0PSD has a great reputation on FTE.PETE'S_6.0PSD has a great reputation on FTE.PETE'S_6.0PSD has a great reputation on FTE.PETE'S_6.0PSD has a great reputation on FTE.
Question first batch , need advice,

hey guys, i just made my frst 30gallon batch of biodiesel, and i have it in my settling tank, i drained of the gliceryne from the bottom, and now im readdy to add Magnesol,
my question is,whats the best way to test your oil before magnesol
how to test it for soap, or anything ealse,
im new to this stuff, and if you guys dont mind, can you give me some pointers, id like to use it for my 2001 F250 powerstroke and HHO,
thank you


Peter
__________________
2008 6.7 cummins QC LB 4X4
Deleted, MiniMaxx with OD. Banks intake,exhaust , intercooler,WCC intake horn GH delete,GDP Pro Gate and Arctic Heat heater.rail plug shim.
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 04-19-2007, 08:26 PM
Talyn's Avatar
Talyn Talyn is offline
Post Fiend
 
Join Date: Oct 2003
Location: Spring Hill, TN
Posts: 16,814
Talyn has much to be proud ofTalyn has much to be proud ofTalyn has much to be proud ofTalyn has much to be proud ofTalyn has much to be proud ofTalyn has much to be proud ofTalyn has much to be proud ofTalyn has much to be proud of
I think they were doing the magnesol before the settleing tank.

But they saying to use a mixer not a pump to mix your magnesol. Then strain it when your done useing gravity is best, because the pump grinds the magnesol up, and you dont want that in your engine.

I immagine there are some simple tests for acides and soaps.
__________________
Talyn (AKA: der Schafen Führer)
1994 F250 XLT 4x4 Standard Cab - T-444E Direct Injection Turbo Diesel, 5 SPD M/T Z/F S5-420, Rosewood 160cc Stage 1's, PHP Tuner, 6637, Short Throw Shift Kit, Valair Kevlar/Ceramic, 140V IDM, T-500, 285/75/16 Cooper Discoverer ATR. Steyr C9-A1.
You can get more with a kind word and a 2x4 than you can with just a kind word.
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 04-20-2007, 12:23 AM
Murphy2000 Murphy2000 is offline
Senior User
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 153
Murphy2000 is starting off with a positive reputation.
Google "3/27 Test" and learn how to do it.. Its fast and easy..
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 04-20-2007, 11:13 AM
JOAT JOAT is offline
Freshman User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 37
JOAT is starting off with a positive reputation.
Testing for Soap

If you're not bubble washing till the wash water is crystal clear, you definitely want to test for soap.

3/27 is good to tell you if full conversion occured. Simply mix 1 part bio to 9 parts methanol. Bio will dissolve, and any unconverted will drop to the bottom. If it stays cloudy, there may be other isues as well.

Last edited by JOAT; 04-20-2007 at 11:16 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 04-20-2007, 02:40 PM
PETE'S_6.0PSD PETE'S_6.0PSD is offline
Postmaster
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,036
PETE'S_6.0PSD has a great reputation on FTE.PETE'S_6.0PSD has a great reputation on FTE.PETE'S_6.0PSD has a great reputation on FTE.PETE'S_6.0PSD has a great reputation on FTE.PETE'S_6.0PSD has a great reputation on FTE.PETE'S_6.0PSD has a great reputation on FTE.
thanks Murphy,,,
and JOAT im doing Magnesol dry wash, so i dont think i have to do water wash or bubble dry,
i hope im correct?
and what finished bio should look like? as far as the color?
__________________
2008 6.7 cummins QC LB 4X4
Deleted, MiniMaxx with OD. Banks intake,exhaust , intercooler,WCC intake horn GH delete,GDP Pro Gate and Arctic Heat heater.rail plug shim.
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 04-20-2007, 03:22 PM
PETE'S_6.0PSD PETE'S_6.0PSD is offline
Postmaster
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,036
PETE'S_6.0PSD has a great reputation on FTE.PETE'S_6.0PSD has a great reputation on FTE.PETE'S_6.0PSD has a great reputation on FTE.PETE'S_6.0PSD has a great reputation on FTE.PETE'S_6.0PSD has a great reputation on FTE.PETE'S_6.0PSD has a great reputation on FTE.
ok i did 3/27 test and 1/9 test
3/27 after mixing it i had a little dark oil or whatever settle to the bottom, about 1ml abd bio cleared up afer 1-2 min, with a little yelowish color, but clear
1/9 test was a similar story with little about .5ml settlement and cleared fast too

so what does it mean?

i use applesead processor

can anyone do some analizing for me?
thanks
__________________
2008 6.7 cummins QC LB 4X4
Deleted, MiniMaxx with OD. Banks intake,exhaust , intercooler,WCC intake horn GH delete,GDP Pro Gate and Arctic Heat heater.rail plug shim.
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 04-20-2007, 03:22 PM
JOAT JOAT is offline
Freshman User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 37
JOAT is starting off with a positive reputation.
Color will be yellow to coffee, depending on the source oil. It should be sparkling in a jar, no cloudyness at all. Depending on how dark it is will make a difference on how far into a barrel you can see.

Magnesol and no water, will probably remove most contaminants, but I'd still do a soap test. Also there is a chance you will not get all the methanol out without water, unless you air dry or distill it off.

Have you looked into GL's one day process? Thats the way I'd go if I was'nt so happy with water washing.
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 04-20-2007, 04:12 PM
Murphy2000 Murphy2000 is offline
Senior User
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 153
Murphy2000 is starting off with a positive reputation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PETE'S_7.3PSD
ok i did 3/27 test and 1/9 test
3/27 after mixing it i had a little dark oil or whatever settle to the bottom, about 1ml abd bio cleared up afer 1-2 min, with a little yelowish color, but clear
1/9 test was a similar story with little about .5ml settlement and cleared fast too

so what does it mean?

i use applesead processor

can anyone do some analizing for me?
thanks
It means you have bad fuel.

Here is another test you can do,
Take a 1 liter sample and add 250ml of methanol and 1 gram of your catalyst.. shake it up and heat in microwave to just warm. Keep shaking lots and re-warming for 20 seconds at a time.

After 1/2 hour, let settle and see if any more glycerin settles to the bottom.

If it does, the fuel batch you made is crap.. Probably good enough for a farm tractor or old mercedes diesel, but don't dare put that in a new vehicle.

Any settling at all on a 3/27 test means BAD fuel.

The test should go cloudy for 10 seconds and clear up fast.. that means good fuel..

Did you titrate? before reacting?
Please post your process parameters for diagnosis.

I should also add.. the color of your finished fuel means nothing. There is almost no meaningful information to be obtained from visually inspecting a sample of fuel.

Last edited by Murphy2000; 04-20-2007 at 04:15 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 04-20-2007, 05:11 PM
PETE'S_6.0PSD PETE'S_6.0PSD is offline
Postmaster
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,036
PETE'S_6.0PSD has a great reputation on FTE.PETE'S_6.0PSD has a great reputation on FTE.PETE'S_6.0PSD has a great reputation on FTE.PETE'S_6.0PSD has a great reputation on FTE.PETE'S_6.0PSD has a great reputation on FTE.PETE'S_6.0PSD has a great reputation on FTE.
thanks Murphy
my process was 29 gal of fuel, 6 gal of methanol and about 900 gram of LYE
oil was heated first to 130 or more like 140, than i circulated it for a while and adrs mix of methoxide( ithink thats how its called)
circulated it for an hour or so, transfered it to settling tank , after day or so i drained off about 5 gal or so of dark color of gliceryne,
my titration came out to about 4, so was 4+4 for lye,
thats how the mix was done

is it possible to fix the batch?
thanks

Peter
__________________
2008 6.7 cummins QC LB 4X4
Deleted, MiniMaxx with OD. Banks intake,exhaust , intercooler,WCC intake horn GH delete,GDP Pro Gate and Arctic Heat heater.rail plug shim.
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 04-20-2007, 06:21 PM
Murphy2000 Murphy2000 is offline
Senior User
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 153
Murphy2000 is starting off with a positive reputation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PETE'S_7.3PSD
thanks Murphy
my process was 29 gal of fuel, 6 gal of methanol and about 900 gram of LYE
oil was heated first to 130 or more like 140, than i circulated it for a while and adrs mix of methoxide( ithink thats how its called)
circulated it for an hour or so, transfered it to settling tank , after day or so i drained off about 5 gal or so of dark color of gliceryne,
my titration came out to about 4, so was 4+4 for lye,
thats how the mix was done

is it possible to fix the batch?
thanks

Peter
I'm not sure what formula you are following but things are not right.

6 gallons of methanol is on the shy side.. You should be using 22% of your batch size..


First off, all biodieselers speak in Liters and grams not gallons. Please repost your figures using the appropriate units of measure.

Also, you list Lye as your catalyst but no mention of what kind of lye.. Are you using NaOH or KOH and what is its purity?

No matter which, a base amount of 4grams is way to small.. For most NaOH, the base is 5 or 5.5 and for most KOH the base is 8grams per liter.

I understand you're using a water heater? So your vessel is sealed from methanol loss.. that's good.. but 140 is a bit to hot.. try to keep it between 125 and 130. When you get to hot, you start boiling off methanol.. not good.

To fix your batch, I would add another 3 grams per liter of batch size of your catalyst and another 10% methanol.

As an alternative, if you kept your glycerin sealed up when you drained it, you could just mix that in and reduce to 2 grams per liter of batch size and 8 or 10% methanol.

My numbers are just an educated guess.. Exact figures can be obtained by re-figuring your calculations correctly using Liters and grams.

In addition, if you switch to KOH instead of NaOH (if that's what your using), you'll have better and easier batches.. Its just a tad more expensive..
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old 04-20-2007, 08:55 PM
PETE'S_6.0PSD PETE'S_6.0PSD is offline
Postmaster
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,036
PETE'S_6.0PSD has a great reputation on FTE.PETE'S_6.0PSD has a great reputation on FTE.PETE'S_6.0PSD has a great reputation on FTE.PETE'S_6.0PSD has a great reputation on FTE.PETE'S_6.0PSD has a great reputation on FTE.PETE'S_6.0PSD has a great reputation on FTE.
thanks JOAT
and thanks Murphy
i added o a small batch methanol and NaOH- thats what im using, and after settling i did a 3/27 test and it was perfect, so im going to add a missing amount to my batch after reaheating and let it circulater fo hour or so, and let it settle than Magnesol drywash, and should be all set, thanks a lot guys,
now i know how to do it in the future, and what is the Base weight of LYE
and that i have to add 22% methanol not 20%, do i was a little off, and thats why my tests got all screwed up
__________________
2008 6.7 cummins QC LB 4X4
Deleted, MiniMaxx with OD. Banks intake,exhaust , intercooler,WCC intake horn GH delete,GDP Pro Gate and Arctic Heat heater.rail plug shim.
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old 04-20-2007, 09:21 PM
Murphy2000 Murphy2000 is offline
Senior User
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 153
Murphy2000 is starting off with a positive reputation.
The base weight of LYE depends on what kind of LYE.

NaOH = Sodium Hydroxide = 5 grams/liter @ 100% purity

KOH = Potassium Hydroxide = 8 grams/liter @90% purity
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old 04-20-2007, 10:04 PM
JOAT JOAT is offline
Freshman User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 37
JOAT is starting off with a positive reputation.
I actually get better results using a base of 7 grams/liter KOH (or 5 NaOH), but I also use 20% 80/20 base/base. Of course purity varies so that can be a factor too, but I use approx 90% pure KOH at 7 base and pass 3/27.

From what I've experienced 2 stage is the way to go if you want consistent good results with less than 25% methanol. At least down to 20%. Batches I've tried at 16% and 17% did not give me full conversion in 20 or 40 gallon batch sizes (oh no, I used gallons )
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old 04-21-2007, 08:12 AM
PETE'S_6.0PSD PETE'S_6.0PSD is offline
Postmaster
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Posts: 3,036
PETE'S_6.0PSD has a great reputation on FTE.PETE'S_6.0PSD has a great reputation on FTE.PETE'S_6.0PSD has a great reputation on FTE.PETE'S_6.0PSD has a great reputation on FTE.PETE'S_6.0PSD has a great reputation on FTE.PETE'S_6.0PSD has a great reputation on FTE.
JOAT, which metod do you use for KOH titration, the instructions i have are for NaOH, and thats what i'v been using, and i just ordered KOH 90% pure, so i have to get new instructions for it,

thanks

Peter
__________________
2008 6.7 cummins QC LB 4X4
Deleted, MiniMaxx with OD. Banks intake,exhaust , intercooler,WCC intake horn GH delete,GDP Pro Gate and Arctic Heat heater.rail plug shim.
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old 04-21-2007, 09:25 AM
JOAT JOAT is offline
Freshman User
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Posts: 37
JOAT is starting off with a positive reputation.
I factor the purity in afterwards. Use NaOH for your titration still, as you can get it closer to 100% purity so the results are more accurate. Then you can increase the results by 1.4 for the change to KOH and increase by another 10% or whatever your purity is. However with low <1 titrating oil I don't always factor the 1.4 in and still get good results, but then were talking a very small change.

There are some variables in the oil so if you have a consistent source you can play with the amounts a bit in test batches and see if you get better results woth more oor less catalyst. The test batches don't always directly relate to what you'll get in a full batch but they can give you some ideas on what to try.

Last edited by JOAT; 04-21-2007 at 09:28 AM.
Reply With Quote
Old 04-21-2007, 09:25 AM
Reply

Go Back   Ford Truck Enthusiasts Forums > Diesel > Bio-diesel, Propane & Alternative Diesel Engine Fuels

Tags
joatinjector, tear

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On
Forum Jump



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:19 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
SEO by vBSEO 3.5.2 ©2010, Crawlability, Inc.
Advertising - Terms of Use - Privacy Statement - Jobs
This forum is owned and operated by Internet Brands, Inc., a Delaware corporation. It is not authorized or endorsed by the Ford Motor Company and is not affiliated with the Ford Motor Company or its related companies in any way. FordŽ is a registered trademark of the Ford Motor Company.

vbulletin Admin Backup