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  #1  
Old 03-22-2007, 01:52 PM
petebal petebal is offline
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Almost there....some inspiration, please.

Well, Iíve got my feet in the pool and am ready to jump in.

Iíve been running bio for about a year now and love it. The part I donít like about it is the time it takes to make it, the chemicals and the space it takes to do it.

Iím ready to buy a WVO kit (Iím not smart enough to make my own, nor do I have the TIME to do it).

Iíve been collecting WVO and have 55gal so far filtered down to 10u. Iím starting to filter it in a second drum down to 1u.

Iím trying to decide which kit to buy and I think Iím sold on the Vegistroke. I canít seem to find any information on the Vegistroke thatís actually BAD. Out of all the research Iíve done to try and poke holes in this thing, I can find nothing, nada, zip.

Everyone speaks highly of the Vegistroke and its creator which is great for me because I want to buy the best.

I do have a few questions before I fork over the dough and I hope you can help me:

I currently dewater my oil by heating it to 220 and keep it there for about 10 minutes. Does this method remove all the water, or is there something else I should be doing?

I filter my oil down to 1 micron by using bag filters in the drum from McMaster Carr. Is this Ďgood enoughí?

Is there anyway to test the oil for caustics? Iíd hate to burn an injector. The cook at my supply place tells me there are no caustics in the oil, butÖwellÖya knowÖ.

The oil I collect is from one supplier and looks to be like NEW motor oil and stays liquid down to about 20*F. The stuff others get is more like gravy at 20*F. Any thoughts on this? I mean, it looks like great oil, VERY clear and resembles NEW motor oil, exactly.


Do I go with an aluminum tank or a plastic tank, I hear steel tanks are a no-no. Also, should I invest in Killem even with an aluminum tank?


Thoughts on Ďdo-it-yourselfí installation of the Vegistroke and othersÖIíve already taken the truck apart as much as I can (based on the Install Manual at vegistroke.com) to reassure myself that I can install the Vegistroke. Iíd hate to buy it, then be STUCK not being able to install itÖ.YIKES!


Iím not going to heat the tank, except with maybe a Hot FoxÖ..should I invest in one? Is it mainly insurance in cold weather or does it add any other value?


ANYONE thatís installed the VegistrokeÖ..Iím looking for thoughts and suggestions from people that purchased one and installed itÖ..what am I in for here???? I read a lot about ĎWell, if I had the money, Iíd buy a VegistrokeíÖthatís great, but doesnít help me.


As you can understand, the last thing I want to do is spend $3Gís on something thatís going to damage my truck


All Iím looking for is some inspiration to buy it. Iíve already done and am doing the legwork (WVO Suppliers, Collection, Dewatering, etcÖ). Iím standing on the edge and just need some inspiration to get pushed over!



Thanks in advance!
2002 SuperCab F250 (7.3)
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  #2  
Old 03-22-2007, 02:40 PM
Murphy2000 Murphy2000 is offline
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Are you serious?

You want to run straight vegetable oil in your 2002 truck? Wholly cow you are brave.

You should know that they do make a biodiesel processor that is totally automated.. It takes up about the same amount of floor space as a refrigerator and it is almost totally automated. You load your stuff, push a button and come back in 2 days to a fresh load of fuel.

PM me if you are interested.

I would NEVER EVER run straight vegetable oil in a modern day engine. Many of the old engines with direct injection can take it (debatable) but a newer modern diesel engine? That's asking for problems.
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Old 03-22-2007, 08:47 PM
petebal petebal is offline
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hmmmm.......interesting...
brave, stupid.....maybe some of both and more.
what's the name of this 'small space, wvo-biod processor'?

Is it the 'foolmeister'? it's what i heard it called, anyway.
I have no experience with it, and don't know anyone that has it, though have read some bad things about it. Everyone has their opinions.

it still doesn't get me out of TRYING to buy the meth and koh which is becoming a huge PIA for me. the prices just keep RISING on these chems.
storing, measuring, handling chems...it's getting old.

And if i make a mistake with the chems is this any worse for my truck than straight VO....i guess it depends.

Maybe i'll just stick with the #2 and keep paying the man.
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  #4  
Old 03-22-2007, 09:02 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by petebal
hmmmm.......interesting...
brave, stupid.....maybe some of both and more.
what's the name of this 'small space, wvo-biod processor'?

Is it the 'foolmeister'? it's what i heard it called, anyway.
I have no experience with it, and don't know anyone that has it, though have read some bad things about it. Everyone has their opinions.

it still doesn't get me out of TRYING to buy the meth and koh which is becoming a huge PIA for me. the prices just keep RISING on these chems.
storing, measuring, handling chems...it's getting old.

And if i make a mistake with the chems is this any worse for my truck than straight VO....i guess it depends.

Maybe i'll just stick with the #2 and keep paying the man.

Don't be discouraged by some naysayers. I have 9 diesels to power so WVO is not an option for me, I make and use biodiesel. If i were going the WVO route I would use the vegistroke system. They have a great reputation and are the sponsor for this forum.
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  #5  
Old 03-22-2007, 09:26 PM
Murphy2000 Murphy2000 is offline
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I agree with Fabmandelux.. don't let any naysayers or skeptics turn you away.

Biodiesel is a great fuel and recognized by the US Department of Energy as "A Direct Alternative Replacement" to diesel fuel. (home heating oil too!)

Vegetable oil is not recognized by any fuel or regulatory body.

I'm with Fabman..Multiple diesel engines.. I run our entire farm, the neighbors farm, their friends, their friends friends,, well you get the idea. The point is I have never had a bad comment about my fuel. The only time I get an angry customer is when I run out of fuel and don't have any to give them.. it happens.. you get folks hooked on cheap fuel and everyone wants some.

As for the sponsors on this forum, well.. I completely agree with advertising one's products but the forum rules are set up in such a way that sometimes prevents accurate information from reaching people who are asking if your link or post is not congruant with paying advertisers.

Free enterprise at its .. umm.. well you get the idea..
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Old 03-22-2007, 10:20 PM
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Quote:
You want to run straight vegetable oil in your 2002 truck? Wholly cow you are brave.
I assume from this statement there are potential down side to running WVO? I realize I don't stay up on things as well as I probably should, but compression fired engines were invented specifically to operate on things like vegetable oil.....the original alternative fuel engines so to speak. So what makes it so bad now?
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  #7  
Old 03-22-2007, 11:13 PM
Murphy2000 Murphy2000 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by cookie88
I assume from this statement there are potential down side to running WVO? I realize I don't stay up on things as well as I probably should, but compression fired engines were invented specifically to operate on things like vegetable oil.....the original alternative fuel engines so to speak. So what makes it so bad now?

I think that is a darn good question..

The answer as I understand it, has to do with the design characterisitics of the engine and the fuel delivery system.

The high effeciency diesel engines designed to run on petro diesel fuel have been designed around how petro-diesel burns. They didnt really design the fuel to the engine as much as the engine to the fuel.
In fact, when an engine design fails an EPA test, they don't blame the fuel supplier.. They blame the engine manufacturer.

Vegetable oil is not only too thick for todays systems, it has stuff in it that doesnt burn correctly under todays designs.

Vegetable oil could very well be used as a very nice fuel, but the engine would have to be designed for it because its combustion characterisitics, and fluid properties are so different than that of petro diesel.

Now biodiesel is another story.. Biodiesel has almost the same viscosity as regular diesel and burns almost the same..(from a combustion dynamics point of view). It even has a higher cetane rating. Its only draw backs is an intolerance to cold weather and an 8%-10% drop in energy content.

In conclusion, the real issue is how bad is veg oil for an engine...

Well, if I owned a 1985 Mercedees with one of those heavy duty old style engines, I might consider using straight veg oil in it.. (depends on how much I cared for the car).. But a newer $30,000+ truck? Not an ice cubes chance in h3ll would I put straight veg oil through my engine.

When Diesel invented the engine, its components technolgy was not the same.
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  #8  
Old 03-22-2007, 11:17 PM
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Hey I have installed the Vegistroke!! Only takes about 8 hrs on an 02 with some help......

Seriously though, do not be discouraged. One of my customers who is a cancer doctor in Denver bought one of my systems to run Bio year round and has one of those automated Bio-D machines. I think it only set him back about $9,000. And you still have to buy and store the Methonal and Lye. Running WVO will not damage your engine if done right. It can and will destroy your engine if done wrong. I have done a lot of testing on this including injector tests and engine analysis. Long story short, the engine has to be up to operating temp first, then you need to have properly prepared, filtered and dewatered oil. So long as you have a good filtering system in place at home and a good quality kit on the truck, then you are home free. And you are right on about the tanks. Plastic, stainless or aluminum will not give you any problems. FWIW, I have several customers now well over 20,000 miles on oil with no issues
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  #9  
Old 03-23-2007, 12:52 AM
Murphy2000 Murphy2000 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FN74
Hey I have installed the Vegistroke!! Only takes about 8 hrs on an 02 with some help......

Seriously though, do not be discouraged. One of my customers who is a cancer doctor in Denver bought one of my systems to run Bio year round and has one of those automated Bio-D machines. I think it only set him back about $9,000.
Ok.. I surrender on this one.. (white flag waving).. yup.. its pricey and I'm thinking of designing one myself to sell for 1/2 that. I'll say it again..Its pricey..
But it sure is nice to know that you can push a button, walk away and know that your fuel will meet industry approval standards.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FN74
And you still have to buy and store the Methonal and Lye.
You still have to store stuff too....

Quote:
Originally Posted by FN74
Running WVO will not damage your engine if done right. It can and will destroy your engine if done wrong.
I agree.. but I think that's pretty much true with everything.. And, on that point, I believe that even poorly made biodiesel would be better for your engine than even the best straight veg oil. To clarify, I think that maybe the gap might be closed if you are using brand new vegetable oil and the biodiesel was very poorly made. But I'll say it again.. I believe that even poorly made biodiesel is better for your engine than the best Waste Vegetable Oil.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FN74
I have done a lot of testing on this including injector tests and engine analysis. Long story short, the engine has to be up to operating temp first, then you need to have properly prepared, filtered and dewatered oil. So long as you have a good filtering system in place at home and a good quality kit on the truck, then you are home free.
And you are right on about the tanks. Plastic, stainless or aluminum will not give you any problems. FWIW, I have several customers now well over 20,000 miles on oil with no issues
Well now here we have a real problem. While I can not debate your testing and analysis techniques, you can not possibly have enough money to perform proper research and long term durability testing. I'm sure you would agree that 20,000 miles on any diesel engine is not really enough data.. And that's assuming its your engine you tear down and rebuild at your cost.


I might be interested in one of these systems for my tractor.. now that's a heavy duty engine.. easy to work on too. I've done my research and I know the veg-stroke system is the better of the SVO kits.. I'm not debating the quality of your product..(just so you understand)..

But straight veg oil in a modern engine designed for dino diesel? and add to that a common rail system? Not my $30,000+ truck.
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  #10  
Old 03-23-2007, 03:20 AM
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Quote:
You still have to store stuff too....
Not much though, I store dirty oil, clean oil, and some extra filters. Nothing hazardous.

Quote:
I agree.. but I think that's pretty much true with everything.. And, on that point, I believe that even poorly made biodiesel would be better for your engine than even the best straight veg oil. To clarify, I think that maybe the gap might be closed if you are using brand new vegetable oil and the biodiesel was very poorly made. But I'll say it again.. I believe that even poorly made biodiesel is better for your engine than the best Waste Vegetable Oil.
Actually that is not entirely accurate. In my discussions with the company that performs my injector inspections, he sees far more damaged Bio-D injectors than WVO ones. Stands to reason though when you consider there are more Bio-users than WVO. However the reason that more Bio users have injector problems is from poorly made and not properly washed bio. If the bio is not done correctly you still have Sodium Hydroxide (Lye) left in the Bio. Sodium Hydroxide as you know is extremely caustic and will etch injectors. ALL Biodiesel starts life with Lye in it. Only rare batches of WVO ever get lye in them, usually from grill or fryer cleaner that is dumped in WVO vats.

Quote:
Well now here we have a real problem. While I can not debate your testing and analysis techniques, you can not possibly have enough money to perform proper research and long term durability testing. I'm sure you would agree that 20,000 miles on any diesel engine is not really enough data.. And that's assuming its your engine you tear down and rebuild at your cost.
Your right here, 20,000 is not enough miles to determine long term effects on the engine life. I might have a customer or two that are close to 30k. However, speaking for myself, I have over 100,000k on oil. 60,000 this last year. I started out on just 100% SVO all the time in my main tank. And did the blackstone oil reports to back it up. Goes without saying My engine wear increased dramatically in a short time. That was when I developed the two tank system that would become known as Vegistroke. Never had a blackstone issue since. And I have seen reports from customers as well with no issues. After the first 50k or so I had my injectors inspected and they were in perfect condition. And was able to inspect the motor as well. It was also in very good condition. So even 100k miles is nothing conclusive, but that is certainly enough to establish a trend or pattern. And say running WVO does take even 100k miles of like from your motor, so it is only good for 300k miles instead of 400k. So at 15mpg over 300k miles that is 20,000 gallons of fuel times 2.75/gn. That is $55,000. Now half that for a realisitc savings of around $27,000. If one was disciplined enough, that is quite a nice down payment on a new truck, or a few replacement motors including labor. But, if you are being thorough and cautious with the oil you use, the worst that is liekly to happen, especially on a 7.3 is you may have to replace the injectors after a contaminated batch of WVO.

Quote:
But straight veg oil in a modern engine designed for dino diesel? and add to that a common rail system? Not my $30,000+ truck.
No problem, it is not for everyone. Just remember that EVERY batch of Home Bio could ruin your injectors. Also, Only the 08 6.4 PSD is a common rail motor. The 7.3 and 6.0 are HEUI. Now instead of just saying "that's bad" how about some substantiated information of why and how WVO are bad for a modern diesel. You may be interested to know that in Europe there is actually a standard for Rapeseed Oil to be used as fuel. Then there is also THIS study on an actual comparison of combustion and emission characteristics of Diesel and Rapeseed oil as well as a few others. It is a rather long hard read, but here is a passage of interest
Quote:
The overall combustion performance of the rapeseed oil are very satisfactory in comparison with the diesel fuel while the rapeseed oil produces almost 40 % less soot than diesel fuel. The different volatility of this fuel respect to the diesel fuel is responsible of the different behaviour of the sampled gas concentrations in the base of the flames while at the end of the flames, both attain almost the same values. It has been established that an addition of 9 % of ethyl alcohol (95 %) bring a great benefit regarding the pre-heating oil temperature. In fact, the presence of alcohol allows a reduction in the inlet oil temperature from 150 įC to 80 įC. Moreover, the combustion of the emulsion produces less soot and, at the exhaust, the amount is almost one half less than that produced by the combustion of rapeseed oil. It should be interesting to investigate more carefully the morphology of the rapeseed oil soot because of its higher reactivity toward oxidation shown by using TG analysis that can be correlated to higher hydrogen content.

Generally all measured operating characteristics power, torque, fuel consumption and efficiency prove, that when using these novel fuels there are only slight power and consumption disadvantages in comparison to Diesel fuel. Only with coconut and palm kernel oil methylester were the operating characteristics definitely worse, while soybean oil methylester is placed between the two groups.

Hope I am not coming off as arrogant, I just don't like unimformed blanket statements that have no supporting facts to back up the arguments. And deffinately don't get me wrong on Bio, I am all for Biodiesel. I see it as a 50/50 shot based on one's personal situation.
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Last edited by FN74; 03-23-2007 at 03:23 AM.
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Old 03-23-2007, 04:38 AM
leskwvo leskwvo is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Murphy2000
Are you serious?

You want to run straight vegetable oil in your 2002 truck? Wholly cow you are brave.

I would NEVER EVER run straight vegetable oil in a modern day engine. Many of the old engines with direct injection can take it (debatable) but a newer modern diesel engine? That's asking for problems.

Murphy,

I totally disagree with this. I've run WVO in my 05 PSD since it was new. I converted it 3900 miles. I just passed 36K and nothing WVO related has gone wrong with the truck. I've replaced one EGR valve at 13K and the alternator went out around 15K.

I know of many other 6.0 trucks all accumulating trouble free WVO miles.

I actually think the higher pressure injection systems lend them selfís to WVO more then the lower pressure systems. Seems to me the WVO injected at a higher pressure would atomize better then in a lower pressure system. This is just a guess on my side since I have no way of knowing if this is true. But, it seems to make sense to me at least.

I used to sponsor this forum as well but now that I don't I donít even bother posting much.

But when I see statements like this I just have to chime in.

Erick
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  #12  
Old 03-23-2007, 12:13 PM
Murphy2000 Murphy2000 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FN74
Hope I am not coming off as arrogant, I just don't like unimformed blanket statements that have no supporting facts to back up the arguments. And deffinately don't get me wrong on Bio, I am all for Biodiesel. I see it as a 50/50 shot based on one's personal situation.
I don't think you're coming off as arrogant at all. I know I do sometimes.. I'm not arrogant but I know I can come across that way.. (typing is so much different than verbal communication)

I'm enjoying this an am learning something.

I still would never run straight oil in my engine but the information you are posting is interesting to say the least.

The next million miles should tell a better story.

Methanol is a petroleum product.. The idea behind biodiesel is to get away from petroleum. Using straight veg oil as a fuel would be a great solution but I am still not convinced a modern common rail engine can take it.

Also, you made a comment about lye in biodiesel. Lye is not a problem in home-brew biodiesel production. It is very easy to remove and I have never seen a GC report indicating left over catalyst.

When talking about biodiesel quality issues, its not lye, its glycerine that is the big issue. Glycerine can not burn correctly in a diesel engine. The most common definition of bad biodiesel is a high glycerine level. This issue has been researched and tested over and over again. Glycerine in the problem and this is why I would never burn pure veg oil in my engine.
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Old 03-24-2007, 07:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Murphy2000
Methanol is a petroleum product.. The idea behind biodiesel is to get away from petroleum. .
I thought methanol was a alcohol produced from wood type product and ethanol was the sugars of the plant. Am I wrong?
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Old 03-24-2007, 07:55 PM
Murphy2000 Murphy2000 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kennedyford
I thought methanol was a alcohol produced from wood type product and ethanol was the sugars of the plant. Am I wrong?

Methanol can be made by heating wood in a vacuum but modern production techniques employ the use of high pressure catalytic steam re-forming using natural gas. (methane)

We could make it using biomass but lack any infrastructure for that.

We need a LOT more anerobic digesters. It should be federal law that every major city and land fill use one.
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Old 03-24-2007, 08:19 PM
petebal petebal is offline
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...put your propeller hat on....

Methanol is produced naturally in the anaerobic metabolism of many varieties of bacteria. As a result, there is a small fraction of methanol vapor in the atmosphere. Over the course of several days, atmospheric methanol is oxidized by oxygen with the help of sunlight to carbon dioxide and water.

Methanol burns in air forming carbon dioxide and water:

2 CH3OH + 3 O2 Ā® 2 CO2 + 4 H2O
...Today, synthesis gas is most commonly produced from the methane component in natural gas...

yeah, not petroleum.

guys,
thanks for the discussion, your clarity, and your help.
my decisions made
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Old 03-24-2007, 08:19 PM
 
 
 
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