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  #46  
Old 03-26-2007, 07:20 AM
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Ok here are some more numbers. Meter hooked to glow plug relay
Ambient Temp 63*

Cold Idle 7.5mv

Engine temp 190-195
4th gear @ 2000 rpm level ground 10.4mv
5th gear @ 1700 rpm level ground 10.6mv
5th gear max temp @ hard acceleration 12.5mv Level ground

level ground shifting through gears around 2000 rpm. (Fast acceleration)
Idle 5.4mv First
shift to 2nd 7.6mv
shift to 3rd 9.2mv
shift to 4th 10.5mv
shift to 5th 11.5

Hot Idle 5.4mv

I don't have any hills in central Florida to climb or any loads to pull. Tomorrow I will hit the interstate and run it @ 80 where it spends most of its time and report back. Working nights 12 hours a day without a day off in 2 months or one in the future it will be hard for me to do much else but drive to and from work.
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  #47  
Old 03-26-2007, 07:35 AM
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Nice report gum........I caught the 63°F we will be using that with the ECR a little later........

As you are on the road at 80 MPH, play with your right foot a little.....make "baby breath changes"......see what ya get......
crossbones
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  #48  
Old 03-26-2007, 02:07 PM
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Dave, the pyro I am using is pre turbo, but just barely, it's in the turbo mount. Per Banks instructions for this turbo, 1100 is safe with it in this location...
As for smoke, below the turbo, I can turn an intersection into a black cloud since it warmed up, not sure how it is beyond that as my pass. side mirror glass is MIA at the moment, but, I'm still running 10-12 psi WOT once I get past 2000 rpm in 4th.
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  #49  
Old 03-27-2007, 07:10 AM
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Hello. Questions for all:
what I am looking for is information on the complete fuel supply system.....this includes the fuel tank, fuel pickup, (if you have a electric pump installed), fuel line to the front, the mechanical fuel pump, fuel filter and is there a screen at the IP where the fuel line hooks up and information on the low pressure vane pump inside the IP.......the reason I am asking this is because a restriction of any kind the fuel supply can and does have a major effect on the ability of the IP to maintain the proper timing advance in upper rpms......I am also going to include the injectors on this list...............

What type of fuel pickup (screen or sock is OEM).....do they have a history of giving problems........

Does the fuel line have a history of plugging or does the way it is routed "expose it to get crimped"

On the mechanical pump, I have read about the at idle test, I am looking for information at say 2000 rpms............

Any information about the fuel filter and filter mount (pressure drop across it, does the mount have a one way valve in it,,,???????

on the IP.......does it have a inlet screen, what internal pressures should the low pressure vane pump produce at what RPM........

On the Injectors, I have read that there are three different injectors used on the 6.9-7.3's........what are the pop off specks for each one,,,,,,what degree is the nozzle.....any thing you can tell me is helpful.................

Of the people that have reported readings so far, do you have a electric pump installed?

As more people report, please include any information about changes you have made to the fuel supply system.............

many thanks,
crossbones
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  #50  
Old 03-27-2007, 09:36 PM
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whitefordaward- go feed your cows- this does seam a bit long winded, but the advantage I see here to be learned from, is you basically have a 8 cylinder EGT system here, that with a mulitimeter can idenify if you have to hot or cold cylinder or a dead glow plug, all to be found without taking anything apart other than your individual GP connectors. With a little thought you can determine if you have a leaky injector - due to to high a reading, or one that may have compression problems due to too low, or dead GP. almost no reading at all I assume. CB2, maybe you can enlighten some of us a bit more on basic troubleshooting- point by point so EVERYONE can appreciate the value to be found here. Remember the KISS principle!! LOL
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  #51  
Old 03-28-2007, 08:28 AM
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Using the readings for basic trouble shooting:

The most universal thing is trouble shooting cold start problems..........using the method I described earlier takes less total time, completely stops "blow out", stops all this extra work of thinking you Just fixed them and a week later you have Another ONE BAD.........stops the problems of when the engine "cool", meaning not dead cold and not hot and having to grind on the starter to start the damn thing...

a couple of "going bad plugs" can cause the 30 second cold start stall...........
New Information: .........not only do the glow plugs help in starting a cold engine.............they are a Critical Factor in the engine continuing to run after the current supply is cut off (this is exactly the reason for "after glow"......) in the period where there is No Current Supply and the bottom wall of the chamber is not Hot yet, the engine is getting the heat from the glow plug of ignite the fuel.............you think, well it started and it ran for 30 seconds...the glow plugs are getting hotter and hotter in this 30 seconds.............................here is the answer: not only do they have to be hot enough to ignite the fuel, they have to be hot enough to "over come" the Huge Cooling Effect of the incoming intake air.........now if you want to "see" the cooling effect of the intake air notice this................on your meter when the engine is hot at idle, just turn the engine off and watch the meter instantly increase several millivolts...........

On the cold start advance: just because you hear a "click" does not mean it is working.........a change in the readings with it on versus off TELLS you it is working............

They can tell you have a "plugged filter or restricted fuel supply".......yea, I know, we have a "light".............that is only good at idle or just off idle............it does not tell you squat at 2000 RPM until you have a "real problem"..............the high pressure side of the IP is a "positive discharge pump" , it only needs a few CC's of fuel to do its job correctly................the low pressure vane pump Has to Have Huge Quantities of Fuel in order to build the pressure to make the hydraulic timing advance to work as it should

So, If I was trying to Sell ya something, it would be a high pressure electric pump installed at the tank that would maintain a positive pressure at the IP inlet (at this point I do not have a recommend pressure setting, But I damn sure know that the factory test of 6 inches of vacuum at 3300 is Selling You High Dollar IP's..........................

KJ...........there are so may things that I can do with the readings, to expalin them all now will take a post 10 pages long.............they will all come out in time.................

crossbones....(the guy you can not **** off)
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  #52  
Old 03-28-2007, 09:47 AM
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here are the readins i got on each plug just have the oem lift pump on mine

hot at idle

#7 10mv. #8 11mv.
#5 9.8mv. #6 10.4mv
#3 11.7mv. #4 11.4mv.
#1 11.4mv. #210.9mv.

advanced hot

#7 12.2 #8 12.1
#5 12.7 #6 12.4
#3 13.7 #4 12.3
#1 13.7 #2 12.4
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  #53  
Old 03-28-2007, 08:20 PM
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Hmm, I think the fact that I run the dual coil plugs is wreaking havoc with my numbers,

Stock fuel pickup, tank selector bypassed, Carter P4070 electric pump(72 gph, 6 psi.)
Beyond that, I'm afraid I don't have much for details, my IP is not stock, it's based on a 7.3 unit, but even then I don't know exactly what has been done to it. My injectors are just stock re-built G codes(7.3 turbo) I don't have pop specs for them, but, IIRC, it's in the 1700 psi range.

Anyhow
Hot idle, 750 rpm, 190 degrees. 275* EGT, 48* ambient.
18.1mv, 21.7mv advanced
I've yet to hook it up in cab.

FWIW, my engine doesn't need the after glow on cold starts, even at -40, I give it a 15 second pre-glow, hit the key and off I go... Sure, it smokes a bit, but oh well.
Mind you, I can let it sit for an hour at -40, jump in, hit the key and go, without needing the glow plugs, and on a 50 degree day like today, I only need them first start of the day if I get it up to O/T. Meanwhile my buddy Stephan, even on a 50 degree day, if his truck sits for a half hour, he needs glows, but, his truck is around the 300K mile mark, while mine has 162.
In my experience, 99% of the time, the 30 second cold start stall is an air leak in the fuel system. If it's going to die because it needs more heat in the cyl, it'll usually be within 5 seconds of starting, an engine that will stall from insufficient heat after 30 seconds of running is very tired.
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  #54  
Old 03-29-2007, 08:29 AM
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Just a couple of things here...........we can easily see on both vsd and 82100's post that the test to see if the advance is working showed that they were in deed working...........82100...we are on the same page about engine stalls from lack of enough heat in the cylinder.....if the cranking compression is weak and or the ambient temperature is very cold, the engine relies on the heat of the glow plug even more so.............

As I had some free time yesterday,so I installed my timing probe so I can have my timing meter in the cab to tell me timing and rpm information as I drive.......(I did not get the chance to run the wires yet, but I did do a little testing in the shop)

I must admit that what I saw was puzzling and of great concern to me...............

My plans are to call the manufacture of my timing meter and ask the guy that designed it some questions and he is very hard to get in touch with,,,so,,,,,and for other long discussions with him I already know that he can NOT tell me a KEY piece of information....................

The KEY piece of information that I need is the Probe Holder degree of off set for a 1989 7.3........this can be found (most of the time in factory manuals) and this degree of offset can change from year to year (this does not mean your actual timing is different, just the way it is measured)...............I assumed it is a 20° off set.............the next problem is that my pulse adapter connects to the injector line as close to the injector as possible and the "factory timing adapter is still in place"

The all of this may explain why we are getting such a range of glow plug reading reports and such statements just how difficult it is to get the timing just right even with a timing light.................

now I am really saying here is this: the factory timing speck of 8.5° +- °2 at 2000 rpm may only be a good reference using a Ford Factory Timing light that the degree of off set and any change that the factory timing adapter may make in the reading accurate using that timing speck of 8.5°...........

For people that have reported glow plug readings or timing information, please go back and edit your post with as much additional information as you know or post unknown...

example:
1989 7.3 N/A
glow plugs: Beru (something 9, I forgot
injector timing: xyz
injector pop off: 1425 PSI (not that I have actualy set mine)
timing meter used: Ford Factory Light using the installed factory adapter (using the probe or light) at zxy rpm...............(I use the Model 3300 timing meter from tinytach)

thanks in advance for your time and efforts with this will help all member of the forum..........
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  #55  
Old 03-29-2007, 10:34 AM
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Now that I have a chance, I'm gonna hook up my meter this weekend and take it for a drive. Truck seems to be running well now that I have it cleaned up. I can pull around 17mpg highway, 19 on gravel and 16-18 around town (depends on how crazy I get). Mostly stock except for a flat air cleaner lid and an aftermarket muffler. Diesel Kleen added every tank and oil changed every 3000 miles since the day I bought it.

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  #56  
Old 03-29-2007, 11:10 AM
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Update: I have contacted the manufacture of my timing meter and so far found out that they were the manufacture of the timing adapter that IH installed on the engine.......now waiting for specific information from them......

Another question.........I looked before I did the test and the best that I could see to tell if the 7.3 uses a two piece harmonic balancer (separated with rubber)......looked to be one piece?????

Can some one confirm this or is it two piece?.............

Any two piece balancer must be verified (TDC mark) before using a any timing light..................

crossbones
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  #57  
Old 03-29-2007, 12:27 PM
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i try to look at mine it looks like a one pice but i dont know for sure my deiesl electronic timing meter says to set the offset to -20 degrees off set for the 6.9 and 7.3 should i run mine in the cab to see what it says mine uses a probe to read rpm off the crank pully and a and a probe clamp for #1 injector line do you think my compresion low i have to cycle the gps 3 to 4 times to get it to start when its cold
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  #58  
Old 03-29-2007, 02:49 PM
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ok i put the timing meter on and tryed to watch but its hard the #s fluctuate so fast this is the best i coul do flat ground gp mv.20.1 degrees 9.3 rpm3400 down hill gp mv.15.2 degrees 5.3 rpm 2500 up hill gp mv. 16.4 degrees 11.9 rpm 1500 depending where your foot is the readings will be totaly differnt at idle hot gp mv. 7.6 degrees 9.5 rpm 700 if you are at full thotle and let off to no throtle it gos from say 9.3 degrees to 4.3 degrees and then back up seems as if it trys to keep it as close to that 8.5 degrees as it can dont know just playing around i have access to the meter so if i can help with any readings you want let me know
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  #59  
Old 03-29-2007, 05:41 PM
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UPDATE AND WARNING..............I crawled under my truck and with a small bar and I could wiggle the outer part of the balancer...........this means that at least on my truck it a two piece and has Most Likely Slipped (most two piece balancers have slipped that are this old)...............I will have to verify TDC and remark the balancer...................so at this point I advise anyone that HAS or is going to use a timing light to verify TDC BEFORE HAND.........................

This is a perfect example of understanding the glow plug readings .........I saw instantly that the glow plugs were telling me the timing marks or off set or something else (yea, I even question the timing meter) that I was going by was wrong.......................

more information to follow as I check things out

crossbones
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  #60  
Old 03-29-2007, 06:11 PM
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vintage super duty..............I want you to verify TDC before making any timing changes..............now I want Everybody that is having high readings to take note of this:

What I want you to do is this:
on a cold engine, I want you to cycle the glow plugs two times and turn the switch off......Do Not Start the engine...........note the readings as some as possible............................this is now YOUR PERSONAL MAX NUMBER......................do not panic if you see numbers on the road that are equal or higher............just let off of the damn throttle.........until we know for sure what are safe numbers................

please do not take these things a negative, I assure you over time I will work it out to a science.........and I am Not a science teacher

crossbones
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Old 03-29-2007, 06:11 PM
 
 
 
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