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  #16  
Old 03-22-2007, 10:17 PM
tbone91 tbone91 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by crossbones2
Kevin...............I can adjust the temperature in each cylinder .....several ways...........please do not call what you are not informed about stupid............this is not new......it has been used by very professional diesel people for at least 80 years.......even the glow plug manufactures and diesel engine manufactures are using a version of this method on the engines coming in the future.................

If you can not see the Practical point of this, then Do Not Use It.........
And for me, I can spend my time doing something else.............

crossbones
Insults aside, please reveal how how the rest of us taking crude measurements will help the cause. It seems you have access to a lot of equipment that most of us don't as well as the means to make modifications to you IP/injector lines/injectors/etc...

To me, this looks like a "student project", but maybe you aren't revealing a bigger picture. Is there some secret you aren't telling us?

What is the temperature of the glow plug tips vs the input connectors? For accurate measurements, you will need "cold junction compensation", if you know what that is... when you put an impulse load on the engine, you will get a temperature spike which will travel through the glow plugs to the connectors where it will contribute a false reading delayed by some amount of time (seconds?)... every connection to a thermocouple is another thermocouple.

As a final thought, many of us own IDIs because we don't like a lot of electronics on our engines for various reasons...legitimate reasons, many of us are not ignorant nor lacking in knowledge. Perhaps the powerstroke guys would be more interested in this project?
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  #17  
Old 03-23-2007, 10:20 AM
crossbones2 crossbones2 is offline
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Just the facts ladies:
You can not insult me with what ever someone may say about this method.......it is based on hundreds of very old lab test done at Langley when the basic design of modern diesel engines was perfected.........it is based on hundreds of hands burned hours of my testing on a Isuzu 2.2 diesel engine (both N/A and turbo....I own eight of these trucks and two more diesels in different trucks)
It's based on a 50 HP 90 lbs torque N/A engine in a 2600 lb truck that regular gets 42-44 MPG highway empty.......and I can put a 1000 lb. pay load in the truck and it hardly knows its back there....................

Its based on diesel engines using optimized design, such as a Ricardo Comet IDI chamber and with Screw Adjustable springs in the injectors (that I can adjust to a exact pop off) and mechanical injector pumps such as Bosch VE (that have a decent timing map to them).........

Now,,, if you do not see the Practical Point of a tool to optimize (The sloppy design of the 7.3 using shimmed injectors (that is a Bitch to get any where close to the same pop off on all injectors) and a Stanadyne Pump that has a very poor timing map) and you have the opinion that setting your injector timing at 8.5 BTDC is the "perfect timing" for Your driving conditions and loads........then I will be happy to stop posting right now................

IF the so far reported 5 millivolt reading was from a Isuzu 2.2 Glow Plug with a cranking compression of 440 PSI, a cetane fuel of 45, intake air temperature of 77F, and a cylinder wall temperature of 150F, injectors set at 1500 PSI, at 2000 rpms on level ground with out a pay load, in forth gear(not over drive)...............then my software would mathematically predict the following:

the injector timing would be 3.2 retarded.....for a auto ignition of TDC (not that TDC is the best timing for these engines,,,just a example)

peak cylinder pressure would be 846 PSI....(no boost)

pressure rise per degree of crank shaft rotation would be 51.33 PSI....

temperature in the cylinder would be 2041F

Facts, I have the equipment that I can have on board under real on the road driving conditions to tell me the injector timing at any rpm to one tenth of a degree..............and I have verified my software to with in .5 degrees injector timing..............intake air temperature and water jacket temperature verified...............cranking compression verified............injector pop off verified to +- 2 PSI...........

A simple fact ladies.........without me doing many hours of testing with the 7.3 glow plug and checking every known variable and making the mathematical and mechanical corrections accordingly I can not make reliable predictions...........and guess what...........I am not going to................

all this typing is for Your benefit, Not mine...............so if you are not willing to get off you royal and do some simple testing, report what you find, and make simple comparisons of what is the best glow plug readings for this engine, so be.............................

Would it not be interesting to know what the glow plug readings are from the guy that gets 20 MPG highway............maybe there is someone that gets 25...........................

Base the changes that you make to your engine on what Your engine is telling you to do..........not some advertisement to sell you something.....................

Is the fog beginning to clear?

crossbones
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  #18  
Old 03-23-2007, 01:50 PM
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I am interested in where this is headed.
Shows potential of getting readings from the other side of the exhaust valve.
It also looks something like what I am doing with my pyrometer to see what any changes I make are doing engine wise.

I just wish I was not working out of town driving a company truck right now.

Keep an open mind to new ways of doing things.
Also keep an open mind about people.

If you listen long enough, anyone can teach you something.
Even the drunk bum living under the bridge has something to offer, the only question is can you use what he has to offer and can you listen long enough to learn what he is telling you.

Statements I agree with so far is the stock Stanadyne timing curve needs some improvement.
I also agree with the 8.5 degree timing statement.
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  #19  
Old 03-23-2007, 01:57 PM
tbone91 tbone91 is offline
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I get it now... my sloppy imperfect measurements are going to help you use your own equipment to tune your engine. I don't have, by choice, the equipment you have, and never will. Using modified IP and injectors is not an option. If I want perfect injection timing, I'll buy a powerstroke.

What you're proposing is a dead end. Remember the early pollution controls..using all kinds of vacuum operated crap which did more harm than good? Now we have cars that barely pollute due to electronic controls. There is a reason that diesel powered trucks have gone to electronic controls...the last few percent is the hardest.

We all own IDIs because they're cheap and easy to work on, not because they're fast or get 30 mpg. Asside from improved induction and exhaust, and setting static timing, there isn't much that will give worthwhile returns on efficiency on power or efficiency.

Now if you use your "lab" to come up with a modified IP with better timing, or super precise injectors, which will last 200,000 miles and are willing to sell it cheap, I'm listening.
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  #20  
Old 03-23-2007, 03:20 PM
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After reading your last post crossbones I can honestly say I have a better grip on what you are saying. Thanks for clearing up the fog a bit.

Quote:
Originally Posted by tbone91
I get it now... my sloppy imperfect measurements are going to help you use your own equipment to tune your engine. I don't have, by choice, the equipment you have, and never will. Using modified IP and injectors is not an option. If I want perfect injection timing, I'll buy a powerstroke.

We all own IDIs because they're cheap and easy to work on, not because they're fast or get 30 mpg. Asside from improved induction and exhaust, and setting static timing, there isn't much that will give worthwhile returns on efficiency on power or efficiency.
From what I gathered he is going to use our measurements to get information into his software so that he can give us a better idea about timing these old diesels. Whats wrong with being fast and getting good mpg? Hell, if I can get my IDI to be fast and get 30mpg for the small maintenance/repair cost I already pay then I would be more than satisfied. Example: No dam way am I gonna pay $3000 for new injectors on a powerstroke when I can get a performance pump/injectors for about $750 to go in my IDI. In my opinon these older diesels have been long overlooked due to the implementing of electronics into everything. I actually have heard of an 88' F250 getting in the 24mpg range. Fella in Wyoming owned it and beat alot of other trucks with it. Never could figure out how he did it and he would never tell me but after reading this thread I am tending to believe this was his method...

Share your knowledge crossbones, most guys here would appreciate learning something new...
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  #21  
Old 03-23-2007, 04:34 PM
tbone91 tbone91 is offline
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I'm not suggesting that anyone here should go buy a powerstroke!

I also agree that everyone has something to offer...

Minor details aside, I also doubt that anyone disagrees with the concept of using glow plugs to instrument the combustion process.

A few direct questions though:

1) is this an excersize in finding an optimal static timing number?

2) Is the thinking that all IDIs are pretty much the same and by combining lots of measurements, a one-size-fits-all optimization will be found?

3) Is this a quest to find a process to individually tune engines using combustion temperature?

4) Is the result going to be a wish list of unreachable goals such as recurving the IP and/or micro-adjusting each injector?
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  #22  
Old 03-23-2007, 08:58 PM
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I can see where he's going too. Optimise tuning by monitoring the in-cylinder temps using the GPs as thermocouples. That all makes perfect sense. What isn't clear yet is what to DO about it.

It sounds like Bones has written some pretty sophisticated software to do fine-tuning of diesel engine timing based on the GP thermocouple readings, which is pretty cool.

I get it that the Stanadyne pump has a less than optimal timing curve (or map if you prefer) and the Bosch's timing curve is better. Interesting point. I also get it that the standard IDI injectors don't have a good pop-off adjustment mechanism, but someone makes injectors that have screw-adjustable pop-off pressure. I even THINK I get it that someone or some company named Ricardo Comet makes optimized pre-combustion chambers for some diesel engine or other.

WHAT I DON'T GET and what Bones seems to be teasing us with is what the heck can you do about any of that other than maybe fine-tune your timing adjustments?!? Is it possible to modify the timing curve of the Stanadyne pumps? Is there a Bosch pump that fits the IH/Ford IDI? Are there screw-adjustable injectors that will fit our motors? And what about those Ricardo Comet IDI chambers? Are they even an item available to fit the engine in these old trucks?

You've had your fun Bones, you've tantalized us for a couple of days now and started a good thread that has garnered some attention. BUT some folks are starting to get ticked off at your teasing manner. If there really is a way to apply the kind of fine-tuning you're talking about to our trucks, without spending chunks of dough comparable to the price of a new motor or even possibly a new truck, then OUT WITH IT MAN! Tell us something more SPECIFIC instead of continuing to give us history lessons and vague generalitites....
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  #23  
Old 03-23-2007, 10:55 PM
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ok iv been following this one and havent said a word yet but i coulent take it any more so i went out and got some readings i live in the canaidan rockys and the temp was
+2 degrees celcius when i did this the altitude is 4500 feet when i put my pump in i set as follows used sun electronic diesel timing meter-101 warmed up engine unpluged cold advance set rpm to 2000 and set meter to -20 degrees offset and tweeked pump to 8.5 degrees btdc my truck is a 1991 f-250 super cab 4:10 gears ZF-5 7.3L idi non turbo ok crossbones heres what i got

cold at idle 4mv.

cold at 3000 rpm 8mv.

down hill 2000 rpm no trotle 5mv.

down hill accel. 3000 rpm 12mv.

flat cruise 1800 rpm 13mv.

up hill started at 14 then 15 then 16

geared down

to the pan at 3100 rpm 17 them 18 then 19

idle after hill 6mv.

readings with no load

3000rpm 9mv. 2500rpm 9mv. 2000rpm 9mv. 1500rpm 8mv. 1000rpm 7mv.

look at these and see what you think and tell me if there is any other conditions i can try
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  #24  
Old 03-24-2007, 07:15 AM
crossbones2 crossbones2 is offline
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direct question from tbone91
answers:

1) is this an excersize in finding an optimal static timing number?

not exactly, we are looking for a individualized optimized dynamic timing........in other words we are looking for the timing and other things that gives you the best over all performance...........

2) Is the thinking that all IDIs are pretty much the same and by combining lots of measurements, a one-size-fits-all optimization will be found?

........one size fits all is the factory approach to the problem .....we can do a lot better than that.....

3) Is this a quest to find a process to individually tune engines using combustion temperature?

exactly...........cylinder temperature is the heart beat.....................it tells you where to look for improvements

4) Is the result going to be a wish list of unreachable goals such as recurving the IP and/or micro-adjusting each injector?

absolutely no.........the whole idea with this is get the best you can get with what you have to work with (cheaply, now this does not count the need for general maintenance) ...........now I will tell everyone this.........if I can find a replacement injector that has a screw adjustment instead of shims and a 0 pintle/nozzle..........guess what,, but they will be from a used engine most likely................I do not believe in buying new stuff and I still have to redo them.................and even if I find such a injector........I would never recommend you to use them............if something screws up, it on my engine and not yours...........
crossbones
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  #25  
Old 03-24-2007, 07:17 AM
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vintage super duty.........good information............I want every one to Understand that I am applying logic to the information and I am assuming things and That is All we can do until more information is made available...........but what I see with the information is some very important hints........

the key hint here is the readings at idle (cold 4mv and hot 6mv)

as I have stated earlier, a cold engine will have higher readings than a hot engine.......

we can Assume that the cold start advance was working and had the timing advanced and after the engine was hot, the cold start advance was Off..................so, we can assume that the timing at Idle with the timing advanced is closer to the (optimum timing at idle) than what it is when it is off...............

the readings on the road are way to high..............................WE CAN NOT ASSUME IT'S JUST TIMING

Recommendations to vintage super duty at this point: (THESE THINGS ARE ALL PART OF SUPER TUNING THE ENGINE)......do not that them lightly.....................

first is to check the temperature of the TOP RADIATOR HOSE .......it needs to be a minimum of 190F ....................

after you have a top hose temperature of 190F, I want you to check the temperature of the LOWER RADIATOR HOSE..............now get the average number between the two temperatures..............this gives us a idea of the cylinder wall temperature........we are looking for about 150-165F..................in very cold climates , you may need a radiator bib............

Now I want you go buy a New fuel filter and some of your favorite injector cleaner.........Do Not Install the new filter yet.......put it in the cab with tools to change it on the road if needed...........put in four or five times the recommend dose of cleaner to a full tank of fuel....(this is to clean the internals of the injector pump more so than the injectors)

try this only if you are comfortable with doing so, .....install a jumper hot wire to the cold start advance after the engine is hot and check the readings again...................

WARNING.........at any time you are you are advancing the timing ON A hot or cold engine it and seems to "back up" on the starter motor.......STOP and retard the timing IMMEDIATELY........

ok, ladies, now we have a lower reading of 4mv...........can we get a 3mv...........come on ladies....it out there some where........maybe even lower

crossbones
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  #26  
Old 03-24-2007, 07:44 AM
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dwaymar.........emissions is a "can of worms' that I am legally bound not to discuss to much..........I can say this..........some of the older diesel engines can match or just maybe beat the emissions of the modern engines................with out all of the electronic "stuff"

Sir Richard Ricardo give us the basic design of the modern IDI chamber.............about 1920........hence the name Ricardo "Comet" chamber...............the only IDI design chamber that may be a better design is the Mercedes "M" design.................

They perfected all of the "hot buzz words" of today, such as common rail, multi port injectors, pilot injection.........even what we call "biodeisel fuel" and they knew what to do about emissions............all in the 1920-1930's...................

do we need to know history????

crossbones
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  #27  
Old 03-24-2007, 10:09 AM
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crossbones cold advance was not on with that 4mv. reading this morning it was 5mv. my truck has 215,000km. on it oringial injectors i think the fuel filter was new 4,500 km, ago i run howes lube cleaner every tank the pump i put in i got at the dump dont even know if it was set the same as the old one i will try to get those temps today i already have a winter front on my trck to keep the heat in
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  #28  
Old 03-24-2007, 10:31 AM
crossbones2 crossbones2 is offline
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vintage super duty............this is a good example of assuming things...they must be double checked..............please report back on the diesel knock of the engine as well as temperatures......what I am looking for is this........does the knock get louder as up slowly rev the engine or does it get softer..............at what rpm does it change....

crossbones
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  #29  
Old 03-24-2007, 10:52 AM
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i know when its cold its loud but when she warms up she gets quieter
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  #30  
Old 03-24-2007, 11:54 AM
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ok advaced warmed up at 700rpm 6mv. upper hose engine side 130 degees f. lower engine side 120 degrees in rad temp 185 degrees

advanced after hill upper 165 degrees lower 150 degrees in rad temp 190 degrees 6mv. climing the hill 16,17,18 mv.

mv. numbers seem to be the same advanced
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Old 03-24-2007, 11:54 AM
 
 
 
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