Go Back   Ford Truck Enthusiasts Forums > Diesel > Bio-diesel, Propane & Alternative Diesel Engine Fuels
Sign in using an external account
Register Forgot Password?


Welcome to Ford-Trucks Forums!
Welcome to Ford-Trucks.com.

You are currently viewing our forums as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join the Ford-Trucks Forums community today!





 
Reply
 
 
 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread
  #1  
Old 03-20-2007, 12:03 AM
Murphy2000 Murphy2000 is offline
Senior User
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 153
Murphy2000 is starting off with a positive reputation.
BioDiesel Titration Instructions for Newbies

Is anyone interested in seeing another set of biodiesel titration instructions?

I just finished like 5 or 6 pages with photos to help any newibes out.
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 03-20-2007, 10:29 AM
Country4.2 Country4.2 is offline
Senior User
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Hamilton, OH
Posts: 230
Country4.2 is starting off with a positive reputation.
I would be interested in them. I am thinking about trying to build a processor this summer I am still researching it all right now.
As a newbie what kind would you recommend?
Any tips that you can offer?
I am in college so the summertime will give me time to work on building one, right now I don't have the time to build it but want to get as much info as I can right now.

Thanks,
Jerry
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 03-20-2007, 09:24 PM
kennedyford's Avatar
kennedyford kennedyford is offline
Posting Guru
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Phoenix Arizona
Posts: 1,538
kennedyford is starting off with a positive reputation.
Just follow these instructions and dont spend the money on stuff. Youll need lithmus paper for acidic levels.
Heat oil to 150 in 25 gallons
mix 5 gallons of methanol and 3 lbs of KOH. Mix for 1/2 hr. Flamable and do not breath
Mix together for 1/2 to hour.
Pump to holding tank and let settle for many a days
Drain gycering from bottom or pump bio from top. Read up on Fabmans processes to further get refinement. You wont need tritration, its too involved, expensive for your time, and a tree huggers idea. Your not using Naoh ( sodium hydroxide) so the by product in easier to work with and envirornmentally friendly. You have the abilty to recoup your expensive methanol easier from the by product either through vacuum or heated distillery method. Have fun Jerry. I posted my pics of my stuff if you pull up my posts. Hillbilly mixer and what ever the other one was
__________________
585,000+ miles on original engine. Goldie 00 F-350
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 03-20-2007, 10:07 PM
Murphy2000 Murphy2000 is offline
Senior User
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 153
Murphy2000 is starting off with a positive reputation.
Don't spend the money on what stuff?

And the instructions you just posted can damage someones engine.

Waste vegetable oil requires titration to determine how acidic it is. By knowing its acidic value, you can properly determine how much catalyst is required. This is true only for waste (used) vegetable oil. New vegetable oil all requires the same catalyst ratios.

In addition, the transesterification reaction takes an hour to complete. 1/2 an hour is not enough.

Your statement about a titration being to involved is just wrong.
People perform titrations on their swimming pools for chlorine all the time.. Children can do this stuff..

There is a lot of mis-information going around on the internet. People seem to think that if the engine doesnt break down than their fuel must be ok. Not very scientific.

Where do you get the "Tree hugger" comment? Sorry, that doesnt make any sense to me at all. What does tree hugger have to do with proper titration of vegetable oil?

For the real scoop and the proper way to make biodiesel(scientifically developed with some of the leaders in the biodiesel industry) visit this FREE SITE: www.biodiesel.infopop.cc

biodiesel.infopop is the busiest site on the internet and by far the largest. It is also where Girl Mark hangs out. (the inventor of the appleseed processor) Search wikipedia for "Girl Mark".

The titration instructions I posted on my website are free for all. They are just another form of the same technique found on www.biodiesel.infopop.cc.
(you can find my instructions there also under Murphy)

Thank you,


Quote:
Originally Posted by kennedyford
Just follow these instructions and dont spend the money on stuff. Youll need lithmus paper for acidic levels.
Heat oil to 150 in 25 gallons
mix 5 gallons of methanol and 3 lbs of KOH. Mix for 1/2 hr. Flamable and do not breath
Mix together for 1/2 to hour.
Pump to holding tank and let settle for many a days
Drain gycering from bottom or pump bio from top. Read up on Fabmans processes to further get refinement. You wont need tritration, its too involved, expensive for your time, and a tree huggers idea. Your not using Naoh ( sodium hydroxide) so the by product in easier to work with and envirornmentally friendly. You have the abilty to recoup your expensive methanol easier from the by product either through vacuum or heated distillery method. Have fun Jerry. I posted my pics of my stuff if you pull up my posts. Hillbilly mixer and what ever the other one was
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 03-21-2007, 07:33 AM
kennedyford's Avatar
kennedyford kennedyford is offline
Posting Guru
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Phoenix Arizona
Posts: 1,538
kennedyford is starting off with a positive reputation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Murphy2000
Don't spend the money on what stuff?

And the instructions you just posted can damage someones engine.

Waste vegetable oil requires titration to determine how acidic it is. By knowing its acidic value, you can properly determine how much catalyst is required. This is true only for waste (used) vegetable oil. New vegetable oil all requires the same catalyst ratios.

In addition, the transesterification reaction takes an hour to complete. 1/2 an hour is not enough.

Your statement about a titration being to involved is just wrong.
People perform titrations on their swimming pools for chlorine all the time.. Children can do this stuff..

There is a lot of mis-information going around on the internet. People seem to think that if the engine doesnt break down than their fuel must be ok. Not very scientific.

Where do you get the "Tree hugger" comment? Sorry, that doesnt make any sense to me at all. What does tree hugger have to do with proper titration of vegetable oil?



Thank you,
Money on scales, a blender, pool chemical for the test. Because its a waste of time everytime.

It will damage an engine if your stupid enouph to put it right in without seperation and filtration.

Like I said, To tritrate every time with every batch is time consuming and wasteful. The basic formula is posted with Potassium Hydroxide, all YOUR websites are based on Naoh (Sodium Hydroxide) and so is the WHOLE biodiesel industry. Why arent biod-plants producing? Its because they are using the ever basic Naoh designed system and they dont even tritrate correctly.

Your right mix the Metholoxide mixture with the oil for 1 hour heated at 150.

Then why am I wasting my time on this site? Ohhh, its because ive been to the homes of people that actually MAKE biodiesel. Why would I give misinformation out? Stupid statement.

And if you knew anything about the history of Bio you would know its popularity originated by envirornmentalist. Tree huggers use to tritrate down in order not to waste the Naoh. Thats sodium, of which the by-product kills green plant life and you are unable to easily recoup your methanol from. It turns solid.

Hmm Murphy? Why is it you keep sending people to other websites in every freaking post? Why dont you actually post something that contributes to the forum? Why dont you put your money where your mouth is? Post pics of your homemade bio plant. Ive already done mine and posted pics with instructions. And no I dont use the appleseed processor. Its a pain in the ****.
__________________
585,000+ miles on original engine. Goldie 00 F-350
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 03-21-2007, 08:38 AM
Country4.2 Country4.2 is offline
Senior User
 
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Hamilton, OH
Posts: 230
Country4.2 is starting off with a positive reputation.
Well you guys offer some good counter points to one another. Is there anyone else that can chime in to confirm either of these above methods?

Also where can I get KoH?

Thanks for your help guys
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 03-21-2007, 04:53 PM
kennedyford's Avatar
kennedyford kennedyford is offline
Posting Guru
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Phoenix Arizona
Posts: 1,538
kennedyford is starting off with a positive reputation.
Youll want to start a new post and refer to this one to ask that question. I would suggest you just go down the line and read other postings. Phydeaux88 and Fabmandelux are the top two authorities in my personal opinion. Phy knows alot about chemical compounds and the intricacies and Fabman is a great engineer. He is working on 2 plants and is a bio-diesel consultant for a few more groups including some college work. KOH can be found in a 50.12 bag from the local chemical company. I use Hill brothers but others may be in your location. I cant remember where Hamilton is in reference to Mt Vernon or Sunbury. I could find your chemicals in Sunbury if you were near there. Troy
__________________
585,000+ miles on original engine. Goldie 00 F-350
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 03-21-2007, 09:34 PM
Murphy2000 Murphy2000 is offline
Senior User
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 153
Murphy2000 is starting off with a positive reputation.
Your post is filled with half truths. The other half is missinformation that is also available in many other "non-biodiesel" related sites. For those reading this, if you want accurate information, you have to do some research. Don't just jump into a website dedicated to Ford trucks and start talking to a bunch of folks who figured out they could get cheap fuel. Don't get me wrong, this is a wonderful website.. but its not dedicated to biodiesel and as such, the people "in-the-know" dont hang out here unless they happen to have a Ford Truck.

If you want to make biodiesel correctly, do your homework. Read around. Find the largest biodiesel dedicated educational sites on the internet and read more.

***********MAKE UP YOUR OWN MIND AFTER YOU'VE EDUCATED YOURSELF*****

You can start off here: www.biodiesel.infopop.cc This is a non-profit totally free website. It has accurate information and frequent visits from some of the leaders in the biodiesel industry. You can also visit www.biodiesel.org where you will find more accurate information.

Now, let me pick apart your silly post below and show you all the misleading information.

WRONG 1: Many people use NaOH and more use KOH. Some folks can't get their hands on KOH because it is not as common. I can get both but I use KOH because:
1. It creates less soap.
2. I can turn it into fertilizer
3. Glycerin stays liquid


WRONG 2: Why arent biod-plants producing? What are you osama living under a rock? Where the heck have you been? Biodiesel plants are going up so fast they can't keep up. BIG plants..

WRONG 3: Heat 1 hour at 150? That's to hot. While it would work fine, testing has shown optimal temperature to be 130 degF. One hour is good, 90 minutes even better if you have a weak pump.

WRONG 4: Recovery of methanol is not affected by the type of catalyst you use.

So basically, your entire post was full of WRONG.

With respect, you are not talking to some ding dong amateur who thinks his fool-meister is so cool. I've been an industrial process engineer for 20 years so it might benefit you to show a bit more respect.

(oh, here's the photo of my first processor, (Built for a lousy $400) second one in the works with a 500 gallon reactor)
More photos can be found at www.MurphysMachines.com
Click the image to open in full size.


Quote:
Originally Posted by kennedyford
Money on scales, a blender, pool chemical for the test. Because its a waste of time everytime.

It will damage an engine if your stupid enouph to put it right in without seperation and filtration.

Like I said, To tritrate every time with every batch is time consuming and wasteful. The basic formula is posted with Potassium Hydroxide, all YOUR websites are based on Naoh (Sodium Hydroxide) and so is the WHOLE biodiesel industry. Why arent biod-plants producing? Its because they are using the ever basic Naoh designed system and they dont even tritrate correctly.

Your right mix the Metholoxide mixture with the oil for 1 hour heated at 150.

Then why am I wasting my time on this site? Ohhh, its because ive been to the homes of people that actually MAKE biodiesel. Why would I give misinformation out? Stupid statement.

And if you knew anything about the history of Bio you would know its popularity originated by envirornmentalist. Tree huggers use to tritrate down in order not to waste the Naoh. Thats sodium, of which the by-product kills green plant life and you are unable to easily recoup your methanol from. It turns solid.

Hmm Murphy? Why is it you keep sending people to other websites in every freaking post? Why dont you actually post something that contributes to the forum? Why dont you put your money where your mouth is? Post pics of your homemade bio plant. Ive already done mine and posted pics with instructions. And no I dont use the appleseed processor. Its a pain in the ****.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 03-21-2007, 11:28 PM
kennedyford's Avatar
kennedyford kennedyford is offline
Posting Guru
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Phoenix Arizona
Posts: 1,538
kennedyford is starting off with a positive reputation.
If you want to make biodiesel correctly, do your homework. Read around. Find the largest biodiesel dedicated educational sites on the internet and read more.

***********MAKE UP YOUR OWN MIND AFTER YOU'VE EDUCATED YOURSELF*****

You can start off here: www.biodiesel.infopop.cc This is a non-profit totally free website. It has accurate information and frequent visits from some of the leaders in the biodiesel industry. You can also visit www.biodiesel.org where you will find more accurate information.

Now, let me pick apart your silly post below and show you all the misleading information.

WRONG 1: Many people use NaOH and more use KOH. Some folks can't get their hands on KOH because it is not as common. I can get both but I use KOH because:
1. It creates less soap.
2. I can turn it into fertilizer
3. Glycerin stays liquid


WRONG 2: Why arent biod-plants producing? What are you osama living under a rock? Where the heck have you been? Biodiesel plants are going up so fast they can't keep up. BIG plants..

WRONG 3: Heat 1 hour at 150? That's to hot. While it would work fine, testing has shown optimal temperature to be 130 degF. One hour is good, 90 minutes even better if you have a weak pump.

WRONG 4: Recovery of methanol is not affected by the type of catalyst you use.

So basically, your entire post was full of WRONG.

With respect, you are not talking to some ding dong amateur who thinks his fool-meister is so cool. I've been an industrial process engineer for 20 years so it might benefit you to show a bit more respect.

[/QUOTE]
You contridicted yourself Wrong 1 sub 1...Glycerine stays liquid..Yes it does that is why Wrong 4 contridicts it. You can retrieve methanol out of the liquid state of glycerine through A -heated still or B -vacuum.

Wrong number 2. Look up the financial position and reports of the bio-plants in production and scheduled. Over sized for the American economy and inporting veggy oil. Google your own info, get your own opinion. How about the record number of trucks and the halt of bio sales in the midwest and northeast because of glycerine and soap ruining 18 wheelers...cause insufficient research and processing of bio in cold weather temps.

Wrong number 3....Heating oil to 150 degrees before adding the methaloxide prevents the addition of the colder methaloxide to bring down the overall temperature and slowing the transversification process.

Again wrong number 4. How do you re-coup the methanol from an almost solid state of sodium glycerin without large expenses in heat energy? So working with Koh glycerin in liquid form is a factor in re-couping methanol.

So basically, your entire post proved my point

With respect, you are not picking up on any clues that I have no fuel-meister nor did I ever hint that I did. I've been working with a bio-plant engineer, mechanical engineers, chemical engineer, an automotive engineer, a farm manager, and independent research for a number of years so it might benefit you to show a bit more respect. Dont be a ding dong. There chocolate with cream on the inside and wrapped in aluminum foil.

Oh by the way, the Berkley professor did not invent the appleseed processor. And you did not discredit that the tree-huggers created the fame of self made fuel. My family has been making fuel for over 100 years.
__________________
585,000+ miles on original engine. Goldie 00 F-350
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 03-21-2007, 11:52 PM
Murphy2000 Murphy2000 is offline
Senior User
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 153
Murphy2000 is starting off with a positive reputation.
Yup.. Never argue with an idiot.

They'll drag you down to their level and beat you with stupidity..
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 03-22-2007, 07:16 AM
kennedyford's Avatar
kennedyford kennedyford is offline
Posting Guru
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Phoenix Arizona
Posts: 1,538
kennedyford is starting off with a positive reputation.
Are you finally done? Youve turned this into an Infopop resemblence of a posting war. If your memory serves you I did not insult you nor did I post anything that is not untrue. In fact I detailed and explained myself point by point with substantial information for anyone to research. I did even agree with you on one account. Im sorry you feel that way. I would want to pull you down off your pedistal.
__________________
585,000+ miles on original engine. Goldie 00 F-350
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 03-22-2007, 07:45 AM
kmccune's Avatar
kmccune kmccune is offline
Freshman User
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: NW Wisconsin
Posts: 49
kmccune is starting off with a positive reputation.
Murphy2000

Where did you get those tanks?
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 03-22-2007, 10:25 AM
Murphy2000 Murphy2000 is offline
Senior User
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 153
Murphy2000 is starting off with a positive reputation.
Do you realize this is the only forum on the internet, that I could find, that pushes this strange way to make fuel?

The only other place that has a formula similar to what you suggest is Journey To Forever. It is also well known in biodiesel circles that the information on that site is way outdated. It is also known that following the directions to make biodiesel from the JTF site can damage an engine. (Think common rail engines)
The reason? He doesnt use enough catalyst.

Your forumula is the same. 3lbs of catalyst in a 25 gallon batch may not be enough.
3lbs of catalyst is 1360 Grams
25 Gallon is 94 Liters

Using commonly accepted forumulas requiring 7 grams of KOH (adjusted for poplular purity of 90%) you need 7.8 grams per liter of oil. (rounded out to 8grams)

So, an average titration falls between 3 and 15. Much of mine is around 8 or 10.

So, with 8 titration + 8 Base i need 16 grams per liter of catalyst to just BARELY scrape into ASMT standards.

You are using 12 or 13.. You are 3 or 4 grams per liter short.

Bad fuel.




Quote:
Originally Posted by kennedyford
Are you finally done? Youve turned this into an Infopop resemblence of a posting war. If your memory serves you I did not insult you nor did I post anything that is not untrue. In fact I detailed and explained myself point by point with substantial information for anyone to research. I did even agree with you on one account. Im sorry you feel that way. I would want to pull you down off your pedistal.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 03-22-2007, 10:25 AM
Murphy2000 Murphy2000 is offline
Senior User
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 153
Murphy2000 is starting off with a positive reputation.
Which tanks? The processor and settling tanks are just 55 gallon drums.

The big cone bottom tank is from US Plastics (a bit pricey)

Quote:
Originally Posted by kmccune
Murphy2000

Where did you get those tanks?
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 03-22-2007, 10:37 AM
kmccune's Avatar
kmccune kmccune is offline
Freshman User
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: NW Wisconsin
Posts: 49
kmccune is starting off with a positive reputation.
It was the cone on the bottom that I was interested in. I guess I've seen them if they are from US Plastics.
Reply With Quote
Old 03-22-2007, 10:37 AM
 
 
 
Reply

Go Back   Ford Truck Enthusiasts Forums > Diesel > Bio-diesel, Propane & Alternative Diesel Engine Fuels

Tags
bio, biodiesel, biodisel, biofuel, diesel, easy, formula, forums, fuel, girlmark, instruction, instructions, set, tiration, titration, truck

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Biodiesel problem AndysFords Bio-diesel, Propane & Alternative Diesel Engine Fuels 4 09-25-2008 12:30 PM
bio diesel dfw area or beaumont Str8Ugly Texas Chapter 0 08-19-2008 10:41 AM
Titration question. Rushmore X Bio-diesel, Propane & Alternative Diesel Engine Fuels 3 06-08-2008 02:01 PM
Titration Test blieux1 Bio-diesel, Propane & Alternative Diesel Engine Fuels 11 08-17-2006 09:14 PM
Va Beach, Need help using 210 gallons WVO weekly 93-331-29PSI Bio-diesel, Propane & Alternative Diesel Engine Fuels 4 11-04-2005 07:53 AM



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:20 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7 AC1
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Advertising - Terms of Use - Privacy Statement - Jobs
This forum is owned and operated by Internet Brands, Inc., a Delaware corporation. It is not authorized or endorsed by the Ford Motor Company and is not affiliated with the Ford Motor Company or its related companies in any way. FordŽ is a registered trademark of the Ford Motor Company.

vbulletin Admin Backup