There is virtually no pick-up (no pun intended) after it is warm. It is "ok" at best when cold.
If I park, go in a store, come back out and start up, it will start fine, then 10-30 sec later it will start to stumble/sputter.
TPS is believed to be bad from old codes that were pulled.
Idle is VERY rhythmic once it is fully warmed up. Kind of like what a sound wave looks like. When it dips down in RPM it almost dies.
Idle is normal at "morning"/cold start-up, and as I said the power is better, but still not normal.
Timing at idle (didn't touch "spout" connector or anything else) was 10 deg BTDC, and didn't get more than 20 deg BTDC when I rev'ed the engine.
"Total timing" never got above 20 deg BTDC. (Don't know if this is a problem since I can't find a listing for "total timing".
Had to use the throttle stop screw to bring the idle down from 1000-1200 to around 800-1000. This is when I noticed the poor idle.
Filling the tank seemed to improve the idle quality.
Compression tests were 190-195 across all 4 cyl.
No new codes were pulled yet (lack of time to do it).
Fuel pressure read ~30-35 psi while running +leaking, and I couldn't get a reading with the engine off due to the little o-ring that fell apart (reason for the leak). New o-rings coming from the gauge manufacturer.
Codes pulled a few months ago -
1) 23 - TPS
2) 31 - EVP
3) 67 - NPS - Not important since it isn't on my trans anmore.
4) 11 - System ok
Other useful (or useless) info:
I can stand on the pedal while it is in gear on a flat with no knocking or pinging, and barely accelerate. Getting it up to speed is also a chore, not to mention any inclines or hills and I loose speed. It is almost like when I was a kid I had a 1 cyl moped that would do the same thing. Of course it is normal for the moped with only 1 cyl to do that.
Also - Can someone tell me, show me, pics would be great, the exact location of this spout connector on an 88' 2.3L EFI? Apparently what I thought was it was not. I think I found it but not sure.
Sensors/parts replaced during the "overhaul" with OEM Ford parts:
EVPS (sp? acronym) - EGR position sensor
Cap, rotor, plugs, wires, coil
Non Ford parts:
TPS - Ford part on order, but I don't have it yet.
Fuel filter - I have an OEM one but this one should still be good.
Timing belt - I have the OEM one now, but didn't at the time.
Last edited by G2IC_Wraith; 03-07-2007 at 01:14 PM.
Thanks for the reply, it is getting hard to figure out what this could be.
1) This model doesn't have a MAF. The only sensors from the air box to the TB are a IACV mounted in the air box, and the TPS on the side of the TB. A couple notes on this subject; I have not tried to clean the IACV since the overhaul, but I did spray it down with cleaner when everything was apart. Also I don't understand this POS TPS I got from the parts store. When I installed it I tried to pull the codes and it still read bad. So just for S&G I pulled the sensor off the TB but left it plugged into the harness, clear codes and then read them again. It will not throw a code when it isn't installed on the TB, but as soon as you put it on it says it is bad again. I ordered an OEM Ford sensor but they sent me the wrong one, so I have to wait for them to process the RMA to get another one.
2) I did initially have a timing problem when I put it back together. There are 3 gears the belt rides on, (cam, crank, aux/distributor) and I could only find marks on the crank & cam gears. So I just made sure the aux gear had the distributor pointed to where the #1 terminal would be on the cap. If this is wrong, I will have to tear it back down. As far as I know this 3rd gear only drives the oil pump and distributor gear, so I don't think it matters where it is as long as #1 lines up with the rotor.
Now I go to set the timing and I thought I had found this mysterious "spout" connector based on the vague description in the Haynes manual. As luck would have it, the lead for my timing light dropped down and melted on the header, so setting the exact timing at that point was impossible. I did the best I could and used the calibrated ear technique where it would idle ok and rev ok. I then plugged what I thought was the spout connector back in and took it to be inspected. Skip past failing emissions a few times and then having a Ford station check the timing for me while they inspected it. Sure enough it was around 20 deg BTDC for base timing. It finally makes it through emissions inspection, but it still didn't have the proper amount of power like before it blew the HG. When I last checked the timing over the weekend the timing at idle was 10 deg BTDC, and if I rev'ed it up it would stumble for a sec and drop down around 10-15 deg ATDC, then climb up to 20 deg BTDC at the most.
So I still don't know exactly where the spout connector is since every where I look has a different description.
3) I am fairly certain the belt has the proper tension, but I will recheck it if I have to pull it all apart again. It isn't too easy to get to on these 2.3L engines.
There is also a slight smell of gas, so IDK if this is just because it is not burning everything when it stumbles at idle.
If we had good luck, who would get the bad? NOT WITH US!
I'm glad your being honest and detailed in your replys cause this will all eventually come to a resolve.
Didn't realize..No MAF..OK.
As far as you've gone and in my past experiences, like this one you're now experiencing, I would end up playing "The Process Of Elimination Game"
On my 90 Ranger XLT 2.3 EFI my IACV is mounted on/in the intake plenum along w/ my TPS.
(Refering back to the "The Process Of Elimination Game" above) I removed both of these devices about 4 years ago and Manually Cleaned (taking great care cause these new electronic type gadgets are delicate+sensative) them Inspected them afterwards to see if they had any more carbon on them.
And I too am am not familar..yet..w/ the POS TPS.
As for Timing Issue it is not just only that the Rotor be @ #1 but the Cam+Crank Shafts must also be totally in Sync, in line and in Harmony.
Also the "Timing" that is refered to is Crankshaft.
The Cam Shaft Timing can still be an issue.
ALL 3 GEARS MUST LINE UP OR YOUR SITUATION WILL HAPPEN!
(I still feel that the Timing is an unresolved issue here)
Be honest now...is this you 1st time doing this? Because if it is you accomplished far more than most people that I know...YOU MADE YOUR BABY RUN AGAIN!! Now it's just a matter of "Fine Tuning" Her. I have people that just run a vehicle and then a problem comes up they mostly say "I had to add oil to the motor, antifreeze to....blah..blah..you get the idea...I'm sure!
Once I racked my brains out for a week wondering why my late 87 Horizon 2.2 wouldn't run...stupid timing gear sheered and after finally finding that the rotor was immoble...after working on all the electrical aspects...I was majorly PO'd!!!
Yea, I would like to eliminate as much as possible so I can stop chasing my tail. To give you an idea of where things are located check out these: Engine bay, Air box, Gears The first 2 pics are pre-overhaul, and as you can see, the IACV on the side of the box is supposed to control the air going through that smaller air hose to the TB. The 3rd pic is just to see if your gears and TB are setup the same way.
Oh yea, the POS TPS = Piece of S___ Throttle Position Sensor that I bought from Advance Auto since I couldn't get an OEM part at the time.
You may have a point about the crank & aux gear lining up, but the cam gear being off. I had to line them up several times to get it back together so anything is possible. I say this because I can't be 100% certain that all 3 are where I meant to put them. Over the weekend I will pull that little plug and set it to TDC to see if it still lines up, plus pull the codes if I have the time.
The funny thing is, yesterday driving around, it idled fine yet still lacked some power. I didn't notice any stumbling any of the times I came to a stop. Weird. And it still had the smell of fuel in the air when you get out. I really believe it has 2 (or more), minor problems that are causing all these headaches.
I have no problem being honest about what I did. If I screwed it up, I may not be the first to realize it, but I will admit it if someone points it out. No, this is not the first engine I have tore into. I am certainly no mechanic, but I have been working on cars for the last 20+ years. On the other hand I am 10x more familiar with Chevy, and Pontiac V8 engines and Honda 4 bangers. This is the first time I have gone so far into a Ford 2.3L. I find it to be a simple design, but lacks the amount of power I believe it should have for such a large 4 cyl. And yes, I am very happy I was able to get it running again. I don't know how much of the infamous head gasket thread you looked through, but you have to laugh at the amount of trouble this engine gave me just trying to get the head off.
Thanks for your help. Any help I can get is better than nothing.
Check the MAP sensor for the loping idle. It *knows* how much load there is on the engine based on intake manifold vacuum. If you have high vacuum, you *must* be at idle with the throttle closed, or cruising down the road... Of course if the MAP is broken, it will send some whacky signals to the ECM and perhaps send too little fuel to make the engine run properly.
I replied about the spout connector in the other thread, I think. Did that help to find it?
crazypaw - It's always a PITA trying to find the things that are in different places on all the different years. Actually, my air box is plastic too.
As for the cam gear you asked about - I pulled the plug to look at the gear position, but you can't see squat with the upper radiator hose in the way. IIRC I had to use a small mirror to look through the hole after it was all together. It was a lot easier when it was on the engine stand. Gotta find that mirror as the wife won't let me use any of her mirrors.
tomw - I "think" I know where the MAP sensor is on this truck. I believe it is over on the passenger side mounted upside down on a bracket from the firewall. If you look close, near the AC on the firewall here in this old pic. If it isn't throwing a code, could there still be a problem with it? Is there a test for it? Stupid manual just tells you how to replace it, like that is real difficult. Oh yea, and I haven't got the pic yet, but I think I can see the "spout" connector buried under the EGR and behind the manifold. Great place for it Ford.
Over the past few days, it has been running "ok" it has only gone into it's loping idle once or twice. I did notice when it is idling "pretty good" it is steady at ~1000 rpm, when it is supposed to be ~800 rpm. The power is still lacking, but was a little better for some reason. The recent codes pulled from the computer were the same as before:
23 = TPS - Throttle position sensor
31 = EVP - EGR valve position sensor, or PFE - pressure feedback EGR, or EVR - EGR vacuum regulator solenoid, or EGR not closed
67 = NPS - Neutral position switch
(same as above)
I have explained the issues I noticed with the TPS and no one seems too concerned about it. It will be replaced (again) with an OEM unit when I get it. The second code (31) I don't know what it could be. I have replaced the EGR valve, and the EVP however I have not replaced the solenoid since it is expensive and I don't want to waste $$$ if I don't need it. The 3rd code (67) is nothing. I replaced the trans with a newer rebuilt model a few years ago, and it didn't have a place for the the NPS. There were originally 2 on the truck, one on the pedal, and one in the trans.
Last edited by G2IC_Wraith; 03-12-2007 at 11:37 AM.
Since you have replaced the EGR, I'd be checking the wires... after all they are 20+ years old. Test continuity and look at the 5v reference voltage and good ground at the EGR. Same thing at the TPS. You might find that the connectors have migrated inside the plastic and are not making good contact with their matching parts on the TPS or EGR itselfr. Just a thought.
I don't have the codes memorized, nothing near, and wonder what they actually mean. If I remember, the EGR code means that it is not sending back the volts the ECM expects when the EGR is closed (or full open...). I think somewhere on this site there was talk of the volts not quite getting down to .2 or whatever, the the ECM expected for a closed EGR. I don't remember the fix....
I checked the position of the cam gear relative to the crank sitting at TDC, and everything is good there. I tried again to locate the spout connector, but it was not what I thought it was. From your description I thought it might be this plug.
Nope, it won't even start with that one unplugged.
I also tried to make some observations on how it starts up & the changes in idle + timing. When I first start it up it idles for ~30 sec at TDC, then jumps to 10 deg BTDC. This is where it will idle cold or warm. Idle RPM when cold is 1200-1400, and 800-1000 when warm.
I even swapped out the computer to see if it had any effect on anything. Not really. Still lopes at idle when warm, smells like gas, and lacks the proper amount of power.
I also unplugged the IACV, EGR, and Map sensor to see what changes there were in the idle. IACV cause it to drop in RPM (this is normal from what I have read). The EGR vacuum had no effect (as it shouldn't since there shouldn't be any EGR function at idle). Unplugging the vacuum to the map sensor seemed to improve the idle for a few sec, but it still loped pretty badly to the point it would die if the IACV wasn't plugged back in. Then it would still lope and almost die, but not quite.
FWIW, you can use a VOM with a Hz counter to check the MAP. The Hz should be ... oops, I don't remember. It relates to the vacuum inside the intake manifold. 110 comes to mind at idle, but.
If you disconnect the MAP electric, it should idle ok. If you disconnect the MAP vacuum, and plug it, it should idle ok. If the idle is lopey, and exhaust gas burns your eyes, you are probably running too rich. What was the final fuel pressure result? .. after you replaced the O-ring?
Funny you should ask..... I am on the phone right now with Sunpro/Actron. They were supposed to send me some o-rings, but I don't even know what they sent me. Looks like the insides of a valve or something??? Anyway, I STILL don't have the parts.
Are you thinking that the the fuel pressure is somehow causing the loping idle? If it is I would be surprised since it is VERY rhythmic and not erratic like you might expect.
I will try to disconnect the electric plug when I get home to see what happens. I think I saw somewhere, a test for the MAP sensor so I will see if I can find that too. I know the cheap Haynes just says "Replace it". And I am fairly certain I can't plug the manifold port and expect it to still run. It died with in seconds of me putting my finger over the port.
So I get home last night and park, of course the engine is loping as bad as ever. I pop the hood and pull the plug to the MAP sensor, and ..... WTH!!!!!!! The idle smooths right out and stops loping. I snap the plug back in, and it immediately starts loping again. I do this ~3 times and it does the same thing each time.
Is this a conclusive test that at least my idle problem is due to the MAP sensor even though it doesn't throw any codes? I will bust out the multimeter to test it if I can find the test procedure, but if this is conclusive, I won't waste my time. Or is my "out of range" TPS fooling my MAP?
Last edited by G2IC_Wraith; 03-22-2007 at 09:14 AM.