I don't think its that simple, look at it this way, Navistar spent mega bucks engineering, developing, including a Ford only dual turbocharger induction system, procurring, retooling, EPA certification, etc. The only way the investment can recovered is by the economy of scale by selling large quantities of engines to Ford. Now we don't know the details about who paid for what and the agreements but this could definately hurt both Ford and Navistar big time.

 

I'm sure that a good portion of the 3k is not so much profit as it is all the electronic bs included to meet emmission standards imposed by the feds, and hi-po performance do-hickies demanded by the consumer.

 

Hi Tim...

 

But consider in that $6000.00 Diesel option, there is a bunch of other items that are included with the diesel that are not on a gasser - and not included with the engine, that cost Ford as well - Both Ford and Navi will suffer from this, and I think that there may be a bad apple or two, as there is anywhere, but the majority of employees at Nav or Ford or anywhere, take pride in their jobs and what they do, and I don't believe for a minute that they would partake in purposeful sabotage for a perceived wrong, at the possible expense of their jobs or their future ability to put food on the table.

 

I am sure Ford didnt make 3000 profit on an engine, there are cost on Fords end to put in a navisar engine, sure they made money though. Navistar shut a entire engine plant down because of this ford issue, you have to believe corporate on both ends will resolve this issue. Ford can not afford to blow a diesel option on a heavy duty truck.

 

Looks like my original build date of 3-12 for the my 450 might only be delayed a few days I hope. Good news for everyone at this point.

Ford Super Duty production cut in wake of Power Stroke dispute
Posted Mar 1st 2007 7:36AM by Sam Abuelsamid
Filed under: Plants/Manufacturing, Ford


Amid all the other problems facing Ford, now they're having to cut production of
one of their most in-demand and profitable vehicles just weeks after launching
it. Three quarters of the 200,000 Super-Duty pickup trucks that Ford sells
annually are equipped with the Power Stroke diesel V-8 made by International
Truck. In the previous generation of the trucks, the 6.0L version had an
unusually high number of warranty problems. This caused Ford to sue
International in January to try and recover some of those repair costs.

Subsequently, when production of the new 6.4L engine began for the new trucks,
Ford held back money from their payments to International to cover those
warranty costs. In response, International suspended engine production this
week. Now Ford has started cutting production of the trucks, starting March 1,
with daily shifts going from three to one on March 5. Ford has 50,000 dealer
orders for the new Super Duty and they desperately need to get this issue
resolved. The diesels are popular because they have higher towing capacity than
either of the two available gas engines and also get much better fuel economy.

Update: Late on Wednesday an Oakland County judge issued a court oder requiring
International to resume production and shipments of the 6.4L engines to Ford
while the dispute is settled. Because they stopped ordering engine parts it's
not clear when production would actually resume but Ford expects full production
to resume sometime next week.

Update 2: International has said they will comply with the court order and
resume shipments of engines to Ford. Part of the order was that Ford will pay
for the engines without withholding any money from their warranty cost dispute.

 

Sounds like Ford lost this round.. They get stuck having to fund all the warrenty cost and have to pay for the new engines. Thats got to hurt.

 

I don't see it that way at all. The judge is making Ford pay for the engines it gets and is letting Ford and Navistar duke it out in court rather than distroy BOTH companies finances.

 

That's the way I read it, too

 

Yea,I see it that this court order is just that both companies seen that neither was budging and so both were losing the new 6.4 profits!..The order legally records a time and date going forward not backwards its under court oath orders set forth and mandated by the judge but pushed that way from both the companies and this then sets in stone that the 6.0 finances be soley seperate from the 6.4 numbers and legal paperwork.
Ford $ (bullyish blackmailing if you will)not paying and NAVS ^ not sending out 6.4 engines are just not getting either company no where like I said before it was a stalemate between both companies and so they both just did the obvious and that is to get a judge somewhere that has the pen to seperate the two engines into two contracts instead .Ford and NAV both thought they could bully one another into a pressure moment of just accepting responsibility for the 6.0 loss and lookit neither would budge and so they just figure now its a no brainer both companies behind doors on a phone or not agreed to proceed with production after the judge orders and so they will fight the 6.0 liability later after this contract is up I presume unless someone files or goes belly up.From this point forward atleast they can take a breather and not loss more money and face.
I think both should inncure 50-50 responsibility for the 6.0

are u smarter than a fifth grader ford and nav?? JUST KIDDIN just suck it up and both take on 50-50 responsibility and then report the losses on your taxes and make the government suck it up which then is essentially our tax dollars going back into these companies pockets anyway..So the sooner the better cause I getting FED up with this baby bullcrap!

 

can you imagine how complex the issue of warranty costs really is? I mean, think about the trucks that had rear main seals replaced only to discover that the lube residue on the bell housing was excess throw-bearing lube and / or assembly lube? Who should pay for the cost of that? Not IH! And then what about modded engines repaired under warranty when the mod was the actual and proximate cause of the (head) failure? Not IH! And then what about the bad flashes and dealer errors? Again, not IH. Of course, I suspect there are issues out there that IH should be on the hook for. My point is that I suspect it is going to be difficult to sort out who is responsible for what with out a lot of accounting and legal wrangling.

Bigger picture- with bad blood continuing between IH and Ford, I bet both would like to find new partners to contract with. There seems to be bad blood here and that can not bode well.

I think the first signs of the future will be revealed by which light truck manufacturer is the first to adopt the V-6 powerstroke (already in use in the medium-duty truck market). Will it be Nissian? Toyota? Or the F-150? No one?

It will be interesting to see what happens. In either case, Ford sure seems to be heading downhill. The new truck is an ugly dog wrapped up in marketing puff and the competition is getting better.

-Mike

 

I couldnt agree with you more jaybird.

 

I've read several times on this board about gung-ho Ford techs trying to talk 6.0 owners into rear main seal replacement becuase of some oiliness appearing at back of engine. My experiance with International on a possible warranty issue such as this would be the truck owner having to talk the dealer into action, proper diagnostics performed and documented on diagnostic flow chart forms filled out to the letter and approval from International Area service manager before work was performed.
Also I would be quite sure that the VT365/6.0 as its installed in an International truck allows much more repair access than when its installed in a Ford E-Series or F-Series truck. So even if the International VT-365 & Ford 6.0 Powerstroke had the same rate of repairs needed, Ford is going to rack up more warranty hours per job just gaining access to the engine from removing it or lifting the cab off the truck.
So maybe Ford has some "Mod Friendly" dealers too eagerly approving warranty repairs on engines that were installed in trucks Ford designed?
At any rate its likely a complex issue and at least one of the parties involved wouldn't be satisfied with 50-50 responsibility.

 

In addition to my previous post.......... in my observation, at least in my area, International Truck Dealers do as much or more nonwarranty work on trucks as they do warranty work. They generally charge a competive labor rate to service the local trucking industry, in my area about $75 per hour.
Ford new car and light truck dealers on the other hand tend to do far more warranty work in their shops than nonwarranty work. They bemown the fact that Ford "squeezes" them on the hours allowed for various warranty repairs, since Ford will only pay the same labor rate as the shop customer, the dealer counters by raising their shop labor rate to seemingly ridiculous levels in comparison to other local outlets where one might get their car repaired, in my area about $100 per hour. Then the dealer creates thier own little "Jiffy Lube" called "Quick Lane" or some such thing for cheap oil changes and to do things that aren't covered under warranty.
Just another thought on how warranty costs can get out of hand and might cause Navistar International to be crying foul.

 

What I am wondering is why anyone would believe the 6.4 will be any better then the 6.0, especially if you were one of the people that got a 6.0 and ford didnt make it right. I for one will not continue to be loyal to a company that has not been fair to me. The bad thing is just wait till the problems start poping up on the 6.4, the tech will not be trained and the owners will suffer for fords inability to build a good product, and to remember how they got to be the nations number one truck builder. YOU can see they are now the 4th largest auto maker and when the toyota diesel comes out it will be over for the american auto makers, cause they just dont stand behind ther products.