Go Back   Ford Truck Enthusiasts Forums > Misc. > Alternative Fuels, Hybrids & Mileage
Sign in using an external account
Register Forgot Password?


Welcome to Ford-Trucks Forums!
Welcome to Ford-Trucks.com.

You are currently viewing our forums as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join the Ford-Trucks Forums community today!





 
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 01-27-2007, 08:11 PM
rusty70f100 rusty70f100 is offline
Post Fiend
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Iowa
Posts: 8,600
rusty70f100 is gaining momentum as a positive member of FTE.rusty70f100 is gaining momentum as a positive member of FTE.
Methane to ethanol: The closed loop ethanol plant

See the link:

http://www.roanoke.com/business/wb/wb/xp-101303

This is precisely the kind of innovation we need...
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 01-28-2007, 11:46 AM
76supercab2's Avatar
76supercab2 76supercab2 is offline
Postmaster
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Posts: 4,043
76supercab2 has a good reputation on FTE.76supercab2 has a good reputation on FTE.76supercab2 has a good reputation on FTE.
Ok. First of all, sounds like a good idea on paper. Ethanol plant produces food for cattle, cattle produce fuel for plant, sell beef for burgers, sell ethanol for fuel, sell leftover manure (turning manure to methane still leaves a big part of the solids behind) for fertilizer. Could be a good business venture.


One question:
"Burning the methane will cut the amount of the greenhouse gas -- which could contribute to global warming -- released into the environment."

Ok, what's the byproduct of burning methane? Any chance that byproduct would be a greenhouse gas??????

I've no problem with the idea in general. Just don't try to blow smoke at me about reducing greenhouse gasses.
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 01-28-2007, 12:11 PM
fellro86's Avatar
fellro86 fellro86 is offline
Iowa Benevolent Dictator
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Marengo, Iowa
Posts: 11,512
fellro86 has much to be proud offellro86 has much to be proud offellro86 has much to be proud offellro86 has much to be proud offellro86 has much to be proud offellro86 has much to be proud offellro86 has much to be proud offellro86 has much to be proud of
Well, they complain about the methane the cows produce, so it at least gets used instead of just released...
__________________
the workhorse:86 F250 4x4 6.9 Diesel 4-spd, 4.10 axles
the other workhorse 92 F350 2wd crew cab,3.55 rear axle, 92 6bt Cummins, NV4500
the project: 78 F150 4x4 shortbed 351 auto
Iowa Chapter leader, ASE certified parts specialist
Come on down and join us in the Iowa chapter, or your own local chapter!! Thanks, Roger
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 01-28-2007, 01:22 PM
aurgathor aurgathor is offline
Postmaster
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Bothell, WA
Posts: 2,884
aurgathor is gaining momentum as a positive member of FTE.
Of course, when CH4 is burned, one of the product is CO2, a major greenhouse gas. However. according to wiki ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenhouse_gases ) methane is the worse of two (higher GWP = Global Warming Potetial) so we're better off by burning methane.

What I don't like about alcohol and E85 is the following:
Quote:
On average, it takes one unit of fossil-fuel-based energy to produce ethanol containing between two and 2.5 units of energy, according to Langley.

A spokesman for the Renewable Fuels Association, a national trade association for ethanol, says the ratio is even lower, closer to one unit producing 1.67 units of ethanol energy.
IMHO, this is the Achilles' heel of E85, and need to be improved to be a viable fuel in the long term.
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 01-28-2007, 01:31 PM
fellro86's Avatar
fellro86 fellro86 is offline
Iowa Benevolent Dictator
 
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Marengo, Iowa
Posts: 11,512
fellro86 has much to be proud offellro86 has much to be proud offellro86 has much to be proud offellro86 has much to be proud offellro86 has much to be proud offellro86 has much to be proud offellro86 has much to be proud offellro86 has much to be proud of
The fossil base is the heating aspect, and maybe if they are including it, is the fuels used on the farms. If they use the methane for heating, then that lowers the petroleum usage. Natural gas is what is used typically, as it is readily available Last I knew, natural gas isn't at much risk of running out, but that still is no excuse, if they can get the heat from natural sources, other than petroleum, it would be better. There are some as well that are taking the stalks and such for burning. Initially, ethanol is using natural gass, but in time, they likely will move away from it.
The one thing about ANY alternative fuel is that it takes time to figure out how to produce it, as well as use it. If we are truly going to move away from petrofuels, the engines will also have to as well, or however the power source. We simply will not be able to just keep using the exact same engine, and expect all the fuels to work in them. It takes time and money to build the infrastructure, and if we all just wait for it to be there, it won't happen.
__________________
the workhorse:86 F250 4x4 6.9 Diesel 4-spd, 4.10 axles
the other workhorse 92 F350 2wd crew cab,3.55 rear axle, 92 6bt Cummins, NV4500
the project: 78 F150 4x4 shortbed 351 auto
Iowa Chapter leader, ASE certified parts specialist
Come on down and join us in the Iowa chapter, or your own local chapter!! Thanks, Roger
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 01-28-2007, 04:35 PM
rusty70f100 rusty70f100 is offline
Post Fiend
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Iowa
Posts: 8,600
rusty70f100 is gaining momentum as a positive member of FTE.rusty70f100 is gaining momentum as a positive member of FTE.
Interestingly, if you keep reading a little bit:

Quote:
One unit of energy at his plant, he says, will turn out more than 46 energy units from ethanol.
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 01-28-2007, 05:11 PM
aurgathor aurgathor is offline
Postmaster
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Bothell, WA
Posts: 2,884
aurgathor is gaining momentum as a positive member of FTE.
Good point -- I missed that one. Now, my question is how do they do it? Using roughly 1/20th of the energy is no small feat, if that's the case.
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 01-28-2007, 05:21 PM
rusty70f100 rusty70f100 is offline
Post Fiend
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Iowa
Posts: 8,600
rusty70f100 is gaining momentum as a positive member of FTE.rusty70f100 is gaining momentum as a positive member of FTE.
Methane! That's the whole point. Burn the methane from the bovine poo.

Here's how it works:
Corn in.
Corn gets brewed into ethanol, with distillers grain as a waste product.
Cows eat distillers grain.
Cows output poo.
Poo outputs methane.
Methane is burned to heat the mash to distill the ethanol, closing the loop.
Anhydrous ethanol out, cows out.

So it's basically corn in, ethanol and cows out. So now you have your food and your fuel...

If you keep reading even further, they were also talking about using methane from landfills.

Edit:
Also, for the "grennhouse gas" thing, note that the CO2 released from the methanol ultimately came from the corn. Since the corn plants will intake a similar amount of CO2 next year when the corn plant grows, the net amount of CO2 added to the atmosphere is zero.

Last edited by rusty70f100; 01-28-2007 at 05:31 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 01-28-2007, 09:53 PM
aurgathor aurgathor is offline
Postmaster
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Bothell, WA
Posts: 2,884
aurgathor is gaining momentum as a positive member of FTE.
I'm not asking about the complete process -- I want to know how can they use a single unit of energy when producing 46 energy units of ethanol. One possibility is that they simply don't count methane, other is that they somehow made the distillation process so much more efficient than elsewhere. Or there might be some other trickery somewhere.
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 01-28-2007, 10:23 PM
rusty70f100 rusty70f100 is offline
Post Fiend
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Iowa
Posts: 8,600
rusty70f100 is gaining momentum as a positive member of FTE.rusty70f100 is gaining momentum as a positive member of FTE.
Yes, they dont count the methane, since that is produced at the plant.
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old 01-28-2007, 11:32 PM
aurgathor aurgathor is offline
Postmaster
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Bothell, WA
Posts: 2,884
aurgathor is gaining momentum as a positive member of FTE.
Then it's just some "creativity" with the numbers ....
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old 01-29-2007, 11:04 AM
rusty70f100 rusty70f100 is offline
Post Fiend
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Iowa
Posts: 8,600
rusty70f100 is gaining momentum as a positive member of FTE.rusty70f100 is gaining momentum as a positive member of FTE.
How so? It's not like they have to buy it. All they're doing is figuring the ethanol plant as a whole. Energy out over energy in. And in the end, isn't that what counts?

Last edited by rusty70f100; 01-29-2007 at 11:08 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old 01-29-2007, 11:34 AM
aladin sane aladin sane is offline
Senior User
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Posts: 157
aladin sane is starting off with a positive reputation.
How about this?

Wouldn't it be more efficient to just burn the DDG in a boiler? No need to fool with cows and methane production or collection.

I don't buy the 46:1 ratio they put out there. No way, no how.

Last edited by aladin sane; 01-29-2007 at 11:38 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old 01-29-2007, 12:28 PM
aurgathor aurgathor is offline
Postmaster
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Bothell, WA
Posts: 2,884
aurgathor is gaining momentum as a positive member of FTE.
Energy for distillation should be counted in the same way, whether the methane is a cow byproduct, or comes from a natural gas company.

Now, if they've used something like a heat pump or heat exchanger to scavange some heat from somewhere else in the process, thereby lessening the external energy requirement for distillation, that would be different, and they could rightly claim a higher number.
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old 01-29-2007, 01:05 PM
rusty70f100 rusty70f100 is offline
Post Fiend
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: Iowa
Posts: 8,600
rusty70f100 is gaining momentum as a positive member of FTE.rusty70f100 is gaining momentum as a positive member of FTE.
Go read about it yourself:

http://www.e3biofuels.com/
Reply With Quote
Old 01-29-2007, 01:05 PM
Reply

Go Back   Ford Truck Enthusiasts Forums > Misc. > Alternative Fuels, Hybrids & Mileage

Tags
escape, etanol, ethanol, ford, metan, methane, turning, unit

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On
Forum Jump



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:44 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Advertising - Terms of Use - Privacy Statement - Jobs
This forum is owned and operated by Internet Brands, Inc., a Delaware corporation. It is not authorized or endorsed by the Ford Motor Company and is not affiliated with the Ford Motor Company or its related companies in any way. FordŽ is a registered trademark of the Ford Motor Company.

vbulletin Admin Backup