Go Back   Ford Truck Enthusiasts Forums > Diesel > Bio-diesel, Propane & Alternative Diesel Engine Fuels
Sign in using an external account
Register Forgot Password?


Welcome to Ford-Trucks Forums!
Welcome to Ford-Trucks.com.

You are currently viewing our forums as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join the Ford-Trucks Forums community today!





 
Reply
 
 
 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread
  #1  
Old 01-25-2007, 05:20 AM
vwbuge vwbuge is offline
Junior User
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Johnstown, PA
Posts: 52
vwbuge is starting off with a positive reputation.
More WVO questions

Hello,
I am new to the board and don't even own a Ford yet. (wife drives an expedition) I have owned a MB diesel for a few years now and have had great success running a blend of diesel and WVO. The car loves it and I am very careful of my filtering process. I run this blend WITHOUT any kind of second tank or heater. Then again, I only run this car in the summer.
I am now thinking of buying and Excursion for my everyday vehicle. I was wondering how well these diesel enigines take to running a WVO blend.
Any insight on what I'd be getting into? Also, any issues with reliability? Is one diesel motor better than another?

Thanks,
Paul
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 01-25-2007, 08:38 AM
ToddT ToddT is offline
New User
 
Join Date: Jul 2002
Location: South Arkansas
Posts: 19
ToddT is starting off with a positive reputation.
Mercedes are well known for being able to run thicker fuels than most. Those engines are built for the long haul.

The 7.3 PSD loves grease... but warm grease. During the summer months some folks will run up to 75% WVO to 25% diesel. I used to but am backing off of that approach. I don't think the engine is the problem as much as the stock fuel pump.

The frame-mounted factory fuel pump just isn't robust enough to handle thicker fuels. I used to run both diesel and heated WVO through the stock pump but after going through a couple of pumps in short order I decided to go with a dual fuel pump arrangement.

You may get away with blending, particularly if you add a touch of gasoline and follow the methods of regular blenders.... but first buy a spare fuel pump and keep it on board. Oh, and don't forget the special scissor-type fuel line removal tool.

Todd
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 01-25-2007, 09:36 AM
Phydeaux88's Avatar
Phydeaux88 Phydeaux88 is offline
Posting Guru
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: South Texas Coast
Posts: 1,569
Phydeaux88 is gaining momentum as a positive member of FTE.Phydeaux88 is gaining momentum as a positive member of FTE.
vwbuge

You may have had good luck with the MB bit realize that the T444e is a different animal all together and it is not as forgiving.

There are those that will tell you of their success running VO Diesel blends or unheated VO.
You must understand that the two liquids are not physicaly or chemically similar enough to stay mixed. There will be seperation so the "blend" doesnt stay blended, at least it will begin to seperate into layers that have greater and lesser ratios of VO to #2. The net result will eventually be high concentrations of unheated VO in your fuel system.

Most folks touting their apparent initial success with a blend or unheated VO don't really have enough data to absolutely claim success, that will take 200K or so miles.

The link below points to a study that you should read carefully.

http://www.electricitybook.com/bio0...o-wvo-study.pdf

Having read it you will be in a better position to make an informed decision. The gamble is your engine vs the savings realized by running unheated VO or a blend of VO and #2.

My best advice:
if you want to run VO spend the $$ to modify vehicle so you can do it right.
__________________
2006 F350 4X4 Crew Cab King Ranch edition strictly factory, for now.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 01-25-2007, 12:30 PM
vwbuge vwbuge is offline
Junior User
 
Join Date: Jan 2007
Location: Johnstown, PA
Posts: 52
vwbuge is starting off with a positive reputation.
I am coming up with "page not found" on the link. I am not sure if it is my settings or not.

Before blending with my MB I set up a little experiment. I took three glass jars and mixed various blends. Number one had pure WO, the second had 50/50, and the third had 70%WO/30%diesel. I initially had these jars in the fridge. That is until the wife came home. I let them sit for a while inside and then after about a month put them outside and waited. They were there for almost three months and the coldest drop was down to about 35 degrees. The pure WO looked scary and would never attempt to run it. The 70/30 mix looked a little cloudy and had very little separation. The third with 50/50 didn't look bad at all. No discoloration and no separatioin.
During the summer months here I have ran the 70WO/30diesel mix with success. The temp didn't really get below 45 degrees here. I have ran this for several thousand miles and still haven't changed fuel filters. (extras in the trunk)
I know the MB 5 cylinder is stout and not very picky. I realize that with anything like this there are risks. I was just wondering if anyone tried something similar with a newer engine. (ford diesel)

Thanks,
Paul
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 01-25-2007, 06:56 PM
leskwvo leskwvo is offline
Senior User
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 214
leskwvo is starting off with a positive reputation.
Well in reality I’ve been blending for over 30K miles. I have 34K on the truck now.

Let me explain. I have a two tank system but every switch over is a chance to mix WVO into the diesel tank and vise versa.

I have no idea how much return goes back to the diesel tank when I switch back to diesel but it some amount.

In the summer I get well over 1500 miles out of a tank of diesel before I have to refill it. In the winter about 600-800. Takes longer to heat things up in the winter.

Anyway over Christmas I had not driven the truck for sometime, 5-6 days. Went to start the truck and never ever have I had it not start after seeing the glow plug light go out. This time it took 4 cycles. I chocked it up to not driving it for a few days. The temps were in the 40F range.

Well the next day same thing 4 cycles and then it started. Then I looked at the fuel gauge and notice I was at about 1/8 of a tank. Down that low the WVO must have been pretty concentrated.

I filled up and all was fine again. I routinely run the tank down till the idiot light comes on in the center display. I have a 28 gallon tank and normally get 25 gallons.

What does this all mean? Not sure. Where is the pickup on the tank the bottom or the top? If it's on the bottom then I would think I would be running WVO all the time since I think everyone says the WVO settles to the bottom and the diesel floats on top.

Or maybe it's mixing and staying mixed but I had a really high concentration of WVO and diesel the day I tried to start it after Christmas.

Not sure just thought I'd share my experiences with my 05 PSD running WVO everyday


Erick
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 01-25-2007, 08:17 PM
Phydeaux88's Avatar
Phydeaux88 Phydeaux88 is offline
Posting Guru
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: South Texas Coast
Posts: 1,569
Phydeaux88 is gaining momentum as a positive member of FTE.Phydeaux88 is gaining momentum as a positive member of FTE.
Quote:
Originally Posted by vwbuge
I am coming up with "page not found" on the link. I am not sure if it is my settings or not.
Sorry link was erroneous here is correct one
http://www.electricitybook.com/bio01...-wvo-study.pdf
__________________
2006 F350 4X4 Crew Cab King Ranch edition strictly factory, for now.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 01-26-2007, 07:32 AM
flyboyd8 flyboyd8 is offline
Senior User
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 105
flyboyd8 is starting off with a positive reputation.
Phydeaux88,

That is very good link, It goes over the attempts to run cold oil very well.

One of the best points of interest that I see in it is I believe on page 5, "Van der Walt and Hugo (1981)" They ran IDI engines for 2000 hrs in that test with "NO adverse effects". but the DI didn't make 400 hrs without coking.

I run a heated system as Erick does, yesterday it was a high of 4* here and I was able to maintain 175* fuel temp when I was out with my truck. Now I know I have only driven 22k on WVO and that is only the equivalent to 440 hrs. of run time. But when I replaced my glow plugs in Nov. (16K on WVO 320 hrs. at that time) and they all came out with no buildup or resistance. ( I Had 3 that had gone bad, so I replaced all 8 of them, 4 were original still, I believe) Because our Navstars are IDI's And there are so many good Kits to convert them to heated systems I believe they will run forever on WVO/SVO.

I totally Agree with you that you have to spend some money to convert the truck to successfully run WVO or SVO.

IMHO I also believe that to successfully run Bio, in any % in my climate I would need the heated system anyway to run successful.

Erick,

When you converted your truck, did you install return lines to the Diesel tank? It was my understanding that the Powerstrokes didn't have return to tank lines.
I use 2 solenoids valves to switch fuels that way I do not return any veg to my diesel tank .

vwbuge:

If your MB is one of the older cars then it has a Inline Boush IP that will handle almost any consentration of VO with no ill effects, those pumps were built like tanks.


Long live the IDI

Ken Hall
__________________
Ken, Central NY
Mighty Pre-94, (93) F250, 2wd, 7.3 N/A, E4OD, 3.55, ext. cab, 363K 5-14, hit 333,333.33 on 6-12-11 @ 2:14PM EST, Last 193k on WVO.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 01-26-2007, 03:26 PM
leskwvo leskwvo is offline
Senior User
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 214
leskwvo is starting off with a positive reputation.
The 6.0 has a diesel return. I could get around this with two three way valves and time the switch over by some amount to allow what ever is in the lines to return to the tank it came from. I'm just not to woried about it. Just brought it up for conversation.


Erick
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 01-27-2007, 04:56 PM
Phydeaux88's Avatar
Phydeaux88 Phydeaux88 is offline
Posting Guru
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: South Texas Coast
Posts: 1,569
Phydeaux88 is gaining momentum as a positive member of FTE.Phydeaux88 is gaining momentum as a positive member of FTE.
Quote:
Originally Posted by flyboyd8
Because our Navstars are IDI's And there are so many good Kits to convert them to heated systems I believe they will run forever on WVO/SVO.
I totally Agree with you that you have to spend some money to convert the truck to successfully run WVO or SVO.
Your Navstar is IDI but the PSDs are not. You have an advantage that you should take advantage of.

If you look at any of my past posts on this topic you will see that I do not advise against VO. I simply advise folks that want to use VO to do it right, spend the bucks and do the conversion. Thats because most of them have PSDs. I do strongly advise against using any of the blend formulas that are occasionally touted. You can always make anecdotal arguments in favor of any "miracle blend" but the science does not support them and most of those guys are heading for disaster.I also advise against using old motor oil mostly because of the contaminants it contains but also because of its viscosity, try pouring some 30 wt oil at 0 degrees then imagine your fuel pump trying to pump it.
__________________
2006 F350 4X4 Crew Cab King Ranch edition strictly factory, for now.

Last edited by Phydeaux88; 01-27-2007 at 04:58 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 01-27-2007, 05:14 PM
willbd willbd is offline
Senior User
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Woodburn, OR
Posts: 448
willbd is starting off with a positive reputation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by leskwvo
The 6.0 has a diesel return. I could get around this with two three way valves and time the switch over by some amount to allow what ever is in the lines to return to the tank it came from. I'm just not to woried about it. Just brought it up for conversation.


Erick
On my truck I have a 3-way valve on the return that loops the fuel back to the intake of the fuel pump. When I am running on WVO I have the fuel returning to the tank when I switch to Diesel for shutdown I send the fuel back to the fuel pump. Most of the fuel will return to the engine and not the fuel tank when you loop the return.

My thinking on this is...
1)If you run a looped system and when you get air in the fuel lines it will cause rough running of the engine. After working on the fuel system you have the fuel system set to return the fuel to the tank and all the air will purge out of the fuel lines.

2) The return fuel line on Ford trucks don't have a check valve in the return. If you loop you fuel lines you will pull fuel out of you WVO tank into the inlet of you fuel pump skipping your WVO fuel filter. I think this is why some people have fuel filter plugging. I have about 9K on WVO and have not replaced my stock fuel filter yet. Most 2 tank system run a looped system.
__________________
95 F350 SC PSD Auto 4.10 Pro-Tech Aluminum Flatbed with side boxes AutoMeter Transmission and Boost gauges 6637 Filter mod 160K miles B&M 24K Transmission cooler Diamond Eye stainless steel exhaust 2 tank WVO

Bryan Will
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 01-28-2007, 07:35 AM
leskwvo leskwvo is offline
Senior User
 
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 214
leskwvo is starting off with a positive reputation.
[QUOTE=willbd]On my truck I have a 3-way valve on the return that loops the fuel back to the intake of the fuel pump. When I am running on WVO I have the fuel returning to the tank when I switch to Diesel for shutdown I send the fuel back to the fuel pump. Most of the fuel will return to the engine and not the fuel tank when you loop the return.


I like this idea it would be simple for me to switch to this also. Well if it wasn't 28F out it would be simple. I've had a Fyrbrid 3-way valve sitting on my desk for almost a year waiting for my Pollak valve to fail.

I already have check valves on both my WVO and diesel supply’s. Not sure what you mean by having a check valve on the returns. My WVO return just goes back to the top of the tank. No real way for it to draw fuel up unless the tank was completely full.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 01-28-2007, 08:30 AM
willbd willbd is offline
Senior User
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Woodburn, OR
Posts: 448
willbd is starting off with a positive reputation.
[QUOTE=leskwvo]
Quote:
Originally Posted by willbd

I already have check valves on both my WVO and diesel supply’s. Not sure what you mean by having a check valve on the returns. My WVO return just goes back to the top of the tank. No real way for it to draw fuel up unless the tank was completely full.
On Diesel return lines the fuel goes to the bottom of the tank. If you were to judt drop the Diesel fuel back in the tank it would cause foaming and when you were low on fuel you could draw air into you fuel system. The only diferance between the return line and pickup life is the size(for a stock tank). You WVO is not in a stock Ford fuel tank like mine. I am running WVO in my front stock tank.

If you are not using a dip tube on you return line in your WVO tank and wanted to run a looped fuel system you will need ot install a check vale in you WVO retun near the tank.
__________________
95 F350 SC PSD Auto 4.10 Pro-Tech Aluminum Flatbed with side boxes AutoMeter Transmission and Boost gauges 6637 Filter mod 160K miles B&M 24K Transmission cooler Diamond Eye stainless steel exhaust 2 tank WVO

Bryan Will
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 01-28-2007, 09:39 AM
flyboyd8 flyboyd8 is offline
Senior User
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 105
flyboyd8 is starting off with a positive reputation.
Quote:
Your Navstar is IDI but the PSDs are not.
Phydeaux88:
I didn't realize that the PSD's weren't Indirect Injected (IDI), I have never seen Direct Injected (DI) motors with Glow plugs before. It was my understanding that DI injected motors do not have precombustion chambers and glow plugs in the heads rather inject fuel directly to a chamber cast into the top of the pistons, the Motors that I am familiar with that were DI had a peak in the piston chamber that was centered under the injector. The IDI injector has a single injection orifice and a DI injector has a multi spray pattern. Do the glow plugs actually stick out of the heads of the PSD's into the Piston chambers? I wish I could see a photo of a PSD head so I could see how they do it.


I agree, No WMO for me, Thats a loaded gun.

I do run a Heated WVO system, I monitor both fuel temp and Pressure at the IP. Even at -0* I can maintain 175* WVO temp at the IP. I have both coolant and elect. heat exchangers / heaters in my system. I have gone threw 2 Pollack 6 way valves (I don't believe they could take the heated fuel). I now use 2, 3 way solenoid valves, I no longer return any WVO to the diesel tanks. Yes, I run with 3 tanks, both original Tanks are still for Diesel, and I have a Heated tank for VO in the front corner of the bed of the truck.

I see no need for check valves in my vo return line, it to just dumps into the heated tank. and I used to run a looped VO return.


Ken
__________________
Ken, Central NY
Mighty Pre-94, (93) F250, 2wd, 7.3 N/A, E4OD, 3.55, ext. cab, 363K 5-14, hit 333,333.33 on 6-12-11 @ 2:14PM EST, Last 193k on WVO.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 01-28-2007, 10:06 AM
flyboyd8 flyboyd8 is offline
Senior User
 
Join Date: May 2006
Posts: 105
flyboyd8 is starting off with a positive reputation.
I just found some photos of 7.3 PSD pistons on WOP. they do have the chamber and peaks, Still looking for how the Glowplugs are used.
__________________
Ken, Central NY
Mighty Pre-94, (93) F250, 2wd, 7.3 N/A, E4OD, 3.55, ext. cab, 363K 5-14, hit 333,333.33 on 6-12-11 @ 2:14PM EST, Last 193k on WVO.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 01-28-2007, 04:12 PM
Phydeaux88's Avatar
Phydeaux88 Phydeaux88 is offline
Posting Guru
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: South Texas Coast
Posts: 1,569
Phydeaux88 is gaining momentum as a positive member of FTE.Phydeaux88 is gaining momentum as a positive member of FTE.
the PSD is Direct Injection

The Injectors are controlled electronically and powered by high pressure oil that injects fuel under very high preassure. The high preassure oil is routed thru rails in the cylinder heads.

The earlier (pre 1994.5) diesels (turbo or nonturbo) are Indirect Injection, the injectors are mechanically operated and Injection preassure is accomplished by preassurizing the fuel with a rotary pump.

Check out this thread these guys know a lot more about it than I do.

http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/51...?highlight=idi
__________________
2006 F350 4X4 Crew Cab King Ranch edition strictly factory, for now.
Reply With Quote
Old 01-28-2007, 04:12 PM
 
 
 
Reply

Go Back   Ford Truck Enthusiasts Forums > Diesel > Bio-diesel, Propane & Alternative Diesel Engine Fuels

Tags
center, current, f250, fuel, glow, handle, kencentral, navstar, plug, plugs, pump, success, thick, truck, wvo

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 02:40 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7 AC1
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Advertising - Terms of Use - Privacy Statement - Jobs
This forum is owned and operated by Internet Brands, Inc., a Delaware corporation. It is not authorized or endorsed by the Ford Motor Company and is not affiliated with the Ford Motor Company or its related companies in any way. Ford® is a registered trademark of the Ford Motor Company.

vbulletin Admin Backup