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  #1  
Old 01-05-2007, 11:15 PM
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Waste streams question

From the reading I've done it seems to me like making your own bio will produce at least five or six separate waste streams.

Crispies, plugged filter media, reaction fumes, glycerol, chemically contaminated water, and (if you're using it) magnesol.

My question is, what is the best method to dispose of each?.

The crispies, that's pretty easy, it's just bits of food, so throwing it in the garbage or composting it should be fine. The filter socks used to filter out the fine crispies, can they be cleaned, or do they need to be disposed of? Again, if they aren't cleanable, it should be OK to trash-can them, right?

Other filters though - ones that have lye, methanol, the bio in/on them? What do you do with those?

I gather that during the initial reaction stages the processor gives off some pretty nasty fumes - bad enough to need venting outside your workspace. What quantity of fumes are we talking about? Enough to qualify as a mild form of air pollution?

I know glycerol can be used for making soap, and as a fertilizer (or weed killer depending on which caustic you use), but nobody needs that much soap, and unless you live on a farm, the amount of fertilizer/weed killer you'll end up with will be way more than you can use. Besides, aren't there some chemical residues from the caustic and methanol in it? So what are people doing with it? Would soap manufacuturers want it? Anybody else who might want it?

What about the water - both what comes out of the oil in the reaction step and the wash water used to clean the finished bio? I'm sure it has caustic and methanol in it. What do you do with that?

And lastly, magnesol. I gather it is an absorbent used to remove water from the finished bio, but what form is it in? Powder? Pellets? Once it is water saturated, can it be baked or dried and re-used? Does it eventually reach a "spent" state where it can't be re-used?

I'm really enthused about the idea of setting up a processor and getting started making my own fuel. The concept of reducing our dependance on foreign oil is a great motivator. The economic benefits to me personally are pretty appealing too. I'm just a bit concerned about the possibility of generating a bunch of hazardous wastes that I have to figure out how to get rid of......
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Last edited by CheaperJeeper; 01-05-2007 at 11:17 PM.
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  #2  
Old 01-06-2007, 05:38 AM
leskwvo leskwvo is offline
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You can eliminate all but the top two used Filters and crispies if you just run the WVO in the truck.

Convert the truck not the oil.

Erick
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  #3  
Old 01-06-2007, 02:44 PM
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I would be interested in hearing responses to this as well. I currently keep bouncing between BioD and WVO. BioD has more effort involved, but the finished product is "universal" (can run in any diesel), and should have 0 engine damage concerns.

WVO is easier to go from "fryer to injector", but the potential for vehicle damage is a concern. Not to mention, the need for dual tanks (to start / stop on diesel), remembering to switch, and the fact that all those contaminants (see above) are still -in- the WVO. Rather than clean them out, you're just hoping to burn them.

Really, I -want- to go BioD. That way as I move through vehicles, I don't have to modify each one, etc. Also, I suspect once you get the hardware / system set up, it's not much more involved than simply straining / washing the WVO for use. Aside from the waste, which the original poster mentions...
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Old 01-06-2007, 05:25 PM
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It's not as bad as it sounds.........#1. crispies go in the garbage or compost.

#2.Bag filters can be washed, I wash mine in the dishwasher.
#3. The fumes are minor, I vent mine outside for safety reasons. 5' away from the outside exhaust and you can't smell it at all.
#4.Magnesol is a one time use, and can go into the garbage or on the compost pile. #5. Glycerol that has had the methanol removed can be composted, used for fertilizer, or used to heat your shop. I actually sell some of mine to locals as "organic" fertilizer.

I remove ALL the Methanol from my glycerol, and the Biodiesel, and DO NOT water wash. I have 0 water waste.

Both glycerol and Magnesol can be fed to livestock.

"convert the truck not the oil" is a little simplistic. I use my biodiesel in 9 different diesels. No way do I want or need to convert all of them over to burning WVO. In the time it takes to settle and filter WVO to the point where it is usable, I can convert it over into biodiesel, and use it in ANY diesel.
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Old 01-06-2007, 05:41 PM
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Fab,
How is the glycerol used to heat your shop? In an oil-burning furnace? I've currently got a wood stove to heat my shop, but if I can use the glycerol to heat the shop, that would be even better. No wood cutting, no critters in my heating fuel, and it's an efficient way to use an otherwise "waste" byproduct.
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Old 01-06-2007, 06:05 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bmonnig
Fab,
How is the glycerol used to heat your shop? In an oil-burning furnace? I've currently got a wood stove to heat my shop, but if I can use the glycerol to heat the shop, that would be even better. No wood cutting, no critters in my heating fuel, and it's an efficient way to use an otherwise "waste" byproduct.
I've been experimenting with 2 types of burners, A "turk" burner, and a modified "babington" burner.

Had a lot of problems with the turk style, but finally got it to work "most of the time". Scrapped that, to many problems.

The 1st babington was a single ball, worked, but was tricky to start and keep running. The one I'm working with now uses 2 "*****" and uses about 5 percent biodiesel and 95 percent glycerol. I'm currently burning about .5 gallons per hour, and producing about 60,000 BTU/hour. I've used my "old" shop wood stove as a test unit. I'm going to build an all "new" stove that will be half of the size of my wood stove, and should be much more efficient.
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  #7  
Old 01-07-2007, 01:56 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fabmandelux
It's not as bad as it sounds.........#1. crispies go in the garbage or compost.

#2.Bag filters can be washed, I wash mine in the dishwasher.
#3. The fumes are minor, I vent mine outside for safety reasons. 5' away from the outside exhaust and you can't smell it at all.
#4.Magnesol is a one time use, and can go into the garbage or on the compost pile.
#5. Glycerol that has had the methanol removed can be composted, used for fertilizer, or used to heat your shop. I actually sell some of mine to locals as "organic" fertilizer.

I remove ALL the Methanol from my glycerol, and the Biodiesel, and DO NOT water wash. I have 0 water waste.

Both glycerol and Magnesol can be fed to livestock.

"convert the truck not the oil" is a little simplistic. I use my biodiesel in 9 different diesels. No way do I want or need to convert all of them over to burning WVO. In the time it takes to settle and filter WVO to the point where it is usable, I can convert it over into biodiesel, and use it in ANY diesel.
I like the sound of most of that Fabman. Still a couple of questions though...

How much magnesol do you use? You say it can be used as feed? What exactly is this stuff, where do you get it, and how much does it cost? From the name I figured it was some kind of magnesium mineral compound. If you can feed it to livestock, that's obviously not the case.

How do you make sure there is no menthanol in the glycerol or the bio? Especially since you don't water wash? What about lye? How do you make sure there are no traces of that left in the wastes?

You own or work on a farm, right? That makes using the glycerol and magnesol as feed a no-brainer for you. I wonder how successful I would be at persuading one of the local dairy farmers that it would be safe to feed to his livestock? Is it good feed - say compared to grain or grass?

I don't have a diesel fleet like you're talking about. Only 2 diesel rigs and I plan on selling one of them. I'm still torn between modding the truck to run WVO vs. brewing bio. The BIG thing in favor of bio, is that if I can produce more than I can use I'd think it would be pretty easy to sell the excess for a buck or buck fifty a gallon and recoup most or all of my production costs...
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Old 01-07-2007, 03:11 AM
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You dont want to get involved in selling BioDiesel.
If you do you'll likely find yourself up to your keester in state and federal agents from multiple agencies.
You can get licenesed and permitted to sell it but you'll have to mortgage your first born to do so.
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Old 01-07-2007, 08:36 AM
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CJ, IMHO Erick gave you the best answere, IMHO Convert the truck not the oil.

I now have 20k on Veg oil,Started running WVO,6-7-06. With our IDI's we don't need the extra full pump that Erick has to use on his PowerStroke. I use the lift pump for both dino fuel and WVO. You will need (or should have)a dedicated WVO fuel tank on the truck that has a heated pickup to let the oil flow in our cold climates, heated fuel line, a heated veg fuel filter, (Vormax is a good choice} and a final heat sorce to ensure it is at 158*F, when it hits the IP. I use the Planet drive Mega Vegatherm for the last heater. I also have both Boost gauge and a temp gauge in my fuel line just befor my IP , that lets me monitor both fuel temp and pressure. Of Both types of fuel, (I can tell when my dino filter has some restriction before the dash gauge does)The bost gauge is nothing but a pressure gauge that will also read a vacume. (like on your turbo'd truck, the one over at your friends house) My collant/oil heaters are good enough that I only need the Vegatherm for inishall switch over and slow speed driving My Vegoil tank is a 100 gallon Take off tank from a Big rig, It has a very good "Artic Fox" Tank heater in it. And it was a gift! I have successfuly run at 3*F. that is the coldest we have seen here in the North East this winter.

Erick can help you with your needs fro WVO, He uses Planet Drive Goods and I believe they to be some of the very best!!!!!!!!!!!!

Take a look at there sight and at the simple kit for your trucks.

I average better millage than Erick, alot of my driving is 300+ days. in the last 8 days I have driven 1000 miles.

Today I will be going to Springfield Mass. 350 round trip, I will only use about 1/2 gallon of dino fuel total today. And on the way home I will get to watch my Odometer rollover to 200K Going to be a Great day!!!!!!!!!!!!

I use the Block heater on the motor to shorten my switch over time. I have it on a timer.

Ken Hall, Central NY
Mighty Pre-94 7.3 N/A 2wd, E4OD, ext cab,

PS: Thank you Erick for this site. KH
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Old 01-07-2007, 07:41 PM
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Thanks for the advice flyboyd8. I'm kinda leaning that way myself.

It may be kind of a pain to convert the truck, but its a one-time effort instead of the on-going additional effort required to make bio. And there's next to nothing in terms of wastes to dispose of.

Phydeaux88, you sure that is true of all states? Seems like I saw a post on eBay or Craigs List for a local guy selling bio for around $100 a 55 gallon drum. Maybe wrong, but I was sure I saw it somewhere....

Maybe one of you guys can answer one of my burning questions. I've read that WVO won't mix with diesel. Will it mix with the anti-gel addatives like Diesel Kleen or Howes? Will it keep WVO from gelling? I've read about people around here using WMO to thin WVO so it can be run unheated. Not interested in WMO, but I'm wondering what else, if anything, could be mixed with WVO to reduce the gelling and maybe reduce the need to heat it so much.....
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Old 01-07-2007, 08:49 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CheaperJeeper
It may be kind of a pain to convert the truck, but its a one-time effort instead of the on-going additional effort required to make bio. And there's next to nothing in terms of wastes to dispose of.
If you are going to run WVO be sure youy do it right dont cheap out on the truck conversion. Also remember it will limit your market when it comes time to sell.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CheaperJeeper
Phydeaux88, you sure that is true of all states? Seems like I saw a post on eBay or Craigs List for a local guy selling bio for around $100 a 55 gallon drum. Maybe wrong, but I was sure I saw it somewhere
Yes I am sure. see below
Quote:
Originally Posted by fabmandelux
I design these plants, and once you attempt to sell biodiesel you have major hurdles to consider. You MUST register with the NBB [at $2,500 + $.01 / gal/year]. You'll also have to register your product with the EPA.

Then building the plant....................You'll have to comply with 2007 building, plumbing, electrical codes. Then you'll have to apply for state AND federal waste-water AND air pollution permits. Ready to sell bio right? Wrong! Now you have to supply proper testing documentation FOR EACH BATCH! and the tests cost $1,200 EACH !!!!! FABMANDELUX.
Quote:
Originally Posted by CheaperJeeper
Maybe one of you guys can answer one of my burning questions. I've read that WVO won't mix with diesel. Will it mix with the anti-gel addatives like Diesel Kleen or Howes? Will it keep WVO from gelling? I've read about people around here using WMO to thin WVO so it can be run unheated. Not interested in WMO, but I'm wondering what else, if anything, could be mixed with WVO to reduce the gelling and maybe reduce the need to heat it so much.....
You are asking for trouble if you depend on mixing solvents of any kind with WVO to keep it from gelling. There are those that will tell you it will work and cite a few other people that are "doing fine" by mixing any of a number of petroleum products with WVO. WVO will mix with petroleum products better than it will mix with water, thats about all you can be sure of, but they will eventually seperate.
The question you have to ask yourself is "AM I WILLING TO BET MY ENGINE TO SAVE A FEW BUCKS ?"
Like I said earlier Dont cheap out on the truck conversion. It could cost you $$$$
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Old 01-07-2007, 09:07 PM
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Thanks for the reply again, Phydeaux88.

In terms of selling the bio, I wasn't planning on selling it commercially. Just a 55 gallon drum here and there to friends with diesel trucks. Cash sales.

You made one point that I hadn't considered. How the conversion would affect the resale on the truck. I presume it will lower the value.

SO, now you've made my decision harder by putting one more thing on the BIO side of the scales! Right now the BIO / WVO scales seem to be pretty equally balanced.....
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Old 01-07-2007, 09:26 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CheaperJeeper
Thanks for the reply again, Phydeaux88.
In terms of selling the bio, I wasn't planning on selling it commercially. Just a 55 gallon drum here and there to friends with diesel trucks. Cash sales.
I think that would be the plan most of us would have. Just keep in mind, word of a "good thing" like this gets around. Your friends might send a diesel owning buddy your way for some "cheap fuel', and he may send a buddy, etc.

I don't want this to sound overly dramatic...but if I were wanting to sell Bio (as you describe, not as a co-op or anything), I'd treat it as if I were dealing drugs from the house. Cause when the proper authorities find out, it's -NOT- paranoid to think there could be a sting at your house, complete with EPA agents, tax authorities, etc. It sounds dumb, but the feds take fuel (and fuel taxes) seriously.

Quote:
You made one point that I hadn't considered. How the conversion would affect the resale on the truck. I presume it will lower the value.
I would think so. Those who don't know of WVO conversions are going to be scared to death of the "hippy burning french fry grease in his truck". Those who -do- know are always going to be skeptical that -your- installation would be as good / safe / durable / perfect as -their- installation.

Wheras, with Bio...hey...you're just burning diesel, so there's nothing to disclose / create an issue.

Quote:
SO, now you've made my decision harder by putting one more thing on the BIO side of the scales! Right now the BIO / WVO scales seem to be pretty equally balanced.....
One thing I don't like about the WVO conversion: the loss of either fuel space or bed space. My friend who is running WVO (successfully) in his '92 F350 dually has a big-azz metal tank in the bed, with plumbing, pumps, heaters, etc. That's a lot of real estate to lose in the bed of a truck. At least for -me- in the bed of a truck. And it's semi-permanent, so it's not like you can just pull it out in 2 minutes if you need to use the full-size bed for something.

Of course, you can use the built-in 2nd tank for your WVO, and just keep the diesel in the 1st tank. But what happens when you're on a long trip, or hauling far enough that you can't refill your WVO at home? Can you just put diesel in the modified WVO tank, or do you now have 1/2 the mileage / range you had before?

One thing I like about Bio, is it doesn't "tether" me to home like WVO does. Bio is a great way to cut fuel expenses when near / around / within a certain radius of home (so you can fill from your own fuel supply). However, when you have to leave that radius (overnight trip, vacation, moving, hauling, etc), you're hauling around bunch of useless WVO stuff, and losing either bed space or fuel space.

That's an important consideration for me, as my trucks (currently) don't roll unless I'm hauling something. I've got a little 36mpg Japanese wondercar for around-town / errand / family running. If I had a Bio rig out back, and a couple hundred gallons in storage, I wouldn't think twice about firing up an F350 to visit the family, or pick up the GF's kids 2 hours away. As it is now, though, the trucks burn too much fuel for that kind of "no towing / hauling needed" use.
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Old 01-09-2007, 12:26 AM
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OK, so my education continues. Magnesol, according to the manufacturer is synthetic magnesium silicate. So it is a magnesium compound. Essentially magnesium chemically combined with sand.

I also now understand that amost all of the methanol is cooked out of the glycerine as well as out of the bio. The glycerine is the base material for making soap.

HOWEVER, methanol is so poisonous that even trace amounts of it are harmful if injested or absorbed through the skin. So I don't understand how soap and magnesium sand can be safely fed to livestock - especially if they contain even the slightest traces of methanol and/or lye. I'm hoping Fabman can answer that one for me 'cause right now it doesn't seem to make sense to me.

Right now, the concerns over the wastes are really the only thing standing in the way of my moving forward with setting up my own bio processor.

One other question. Is there any alternative to using methanol? Any other less-hazardous, kind of alcohol that can be substituted for the methanol?
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Old 01-09-2007, 09:18 AM
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You can use ethanol if it's pure enough then the cows would just get "HAPPY".
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