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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 12-09-2006, 03:43 PM
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Have there been cases of fuel gelling? Yes.
Have there been cases of fuel gelling in Dec. Yes
Have there been cases of fuel gelling in Dec. when temps were at or above 30 deg? None that I know of.
What are the chances of gelling being his problem?
VERY slim.
MY truck started with NO gelling today and the temps have been below freezing for 4 FULL days here in MI with lows in the single digits.Last time truck was fueled was 7/14/06. I put in 23.655 Gals, that cost $70.00 from Pilot in Ottaw Lake, MI. I had 368665.8 miles on it then and got 18.33 MPG that tankfull. Then I retired the truck, and started useing my Expedition for work. Truck is loaded with firewood now.Sittin at my back door.

P.S. I never use ANY additives.
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Old 12-09-2006, 04:40 PM
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How lame.....

Guys... diesel fuel gels at different temps for different reasons.

1) The grade or type of diesel #1D or #2D?

2) How well does the station or refiner blend (50/50 mix of 1D & 2D)?

3) How well does the station add (if any) of an anti-gel treatment?

4) Here in KC, they do not start selling winterized fuel until the end of November or mid-December (and this depends on the size and volume of the station).

5) Gas in the lower states is not blended or winterized and no need too. The driver adds his own additives depending on where he is driving. Just to say that all diesel is "winterized" in every state is just an assumption... becuase my local station was not until the end of November!!!

6) Some trucks have recirculating fuel pumps/filters that help keep the fuel filter warm (as it does on at least my '03). I know that Ford got away from the "fuel heater" function at some point on these motors... but I still have it on my '03... but if I get a new HFCM housing... I loose it under the revised part and TSB.

7) Also depends on the water/moisture content that may be present in the fuel
-----------------------

Due to the above, no two drivers experience the same issues at the same temps due to different motors, fuels, additives, blending and the rate at which it was blended.
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Old 12-09-2006, 05:07 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leader
Have there been cases of fuel gelling in Dec. when temps were at or above 30 deg? None that I know of.
What are the chances of gelling being his problem?
VERY slim.
Fuel will not gel at that high of temp, that much is obvious... it is closer to 0 that it becomes an issue. I don't recall what temp #2 starts to give trouble at, but nowhere close to 30 degrees F.
He didn't state he had a PROBLEM, was simply asking what would happen IF it gelled... and what exactly it meant. I don't generally add antigel either, but don't run my truck every day either. Have I ever had an issue with gelling on my truck? No. The stations in my area are usually on top of it for a service to the customers. Have I had a diesel engine gel? Damn right, farm tractors, with the fuel lines exposed, running straight #2. Payloader, running straight #2, bosses doing, gelled up BAD in Feb in South Dakota. He had the bright idea of running #2 since we had a nice warm week. It turned way cold the next week, with the #2 still in it, about 3/4 of a tank, talk about a mess to deal with when you don't have a heated shop. My tractor had #1 in it, because I was smarter than that, and I had the only running tractor on the place as a result... Had he even simply put in antigel to be sure, it would have been ok, but he didn't.
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Old 12-09-2006, 05:33 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Beachbumcook
How lame.....

Yup really lame

Guys... diesel fuel gels at different temps for different reasons.

1) The grade or type of diesel #1D or #2D?

It was #2. Very few stations give you a choice anymore.

2) How well does the station or refiner blend (50/50 mix of 1D & 2D)?

3) How well does the station add (if any) of an anti-gel treatment?

None of the stations that I know of treat thier own fuel.

4) Here in KC, they do not start selling winterized fuel until the end of November or mid-December (and this depends on the size and volume of the station).

The fuel I bought in KC was treated in Oct.

5) Gas in the lower states is not blended or winterized and no need too. The driver adds his own additives depending on where he is driving. Just to say that all diesel is "winterized" in every state is just an assumption... becuase my local station was not until the end of November!!!

The refiners start tereating it long before that to service the trucks that run the entire country. It's not an aswsumption.

6) Some trucks have recirculating fuel pumps/filters that help keep the fuel filter warm (as it does on at least my '03). I know that Ford got away from the "fuel heater" function at some point on these motors... but I still have it on my '03... but if I get a new HFCM housing... I loose it under the revised part and TSB.

7) Also depends on the water/moisture content that may be present in the fuel

-----------------------

Due to the above, no two drivers experience the same issues at the same temps due to different motors, fuels, additives, blending and the rate at which it was blended.
When was the last time YOU bought fuel in FL, MN, CA, GA, NJ, PA, MO ? I buy fuel all over the US all year long. It's treated long before it's needed.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old 12-09-2006, 06:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leader
When was the last time YOU bought fuel in FL, MN, CA, GA, NJ, PA, MO ? I buy fuel all over the US all year long. It's treated long before it's needed.
LEADER,

Lets start over... not all diesel fuel is winterized accross the USA. It depends on the market. Due to the extra cost of adding #1D or additives to #2D, why would they do it in the Southern states... they don't!!

Here is a link:

http://www.exxon.com/USA-English/GFM..._Fuels_FAQ.asp

What should I do in the winter to adjust for the cold temperatures?
We recommend that you purchase a diesel fuel that has been winterized for your area by mixing it with Diesel Fuel No. 1 or low-temperature fluidity improver additives. Non-winterized diesel fuel will not generally cause problems as long as temperatures are at or above 10°F. The addition of about 15% to 20% Diesel Fuel No. 1 to Diesel Fuel No. 2 will reduce the cloud point of the fuel by about 5°F.

We offer winterized product in a majority of markets that experience severe weather conditions. If temperatures fall well below norms for the local area or you will be driving much farther north, additional Diesel Fuel No. 1 blending is recommended.



http://www.tdiclub.com/TDIFAQ/TDiFAQ-3.html
Winterized -Diesel fuel number 2 loses its ability to flow at temperatures below 20F (-7C.). This is caused by wax separation, and is commonly termed "gelling". The thicker wax component of the fuel may be blocked by the fuel filter although it can flow through the larger diameter fuel lines. Most fuel companies "winterize" the fuel sold during winter months in cold climates. This winterized fuel resists gelling at low temperatures. The winterized fuel does not provide the same level of performance as the summer fuel, so your mileage will likely drop while using it. Be aware that the refueling range may permit travel from a warm climate to an extremely cold one on one tank of fuel. It is recommended to fill up with winterized fuel before stopping the engine for a long time in a cold environment.

Under warm conditions diesel behaves much like gasoline, i.e. it appears as a liquid, stinks, but is heavier and less volatile. As its temperature drops some of its less desirable properties become apparent. Diesel fuel consists of many different hydrocarbon molecules of varying characteristics, and of special interest is the temperature some solidify and become wax. The appearance of wax crystals is called "clouding", and the temperature at which this happens in a particular blend is referred to as "the cloud point".

Oil companies adjust the cloud point to suit the various climatic conditions in different locations and the time of the year. The same brand name may be different in Maine from the product sold in New York and in Florida. Lowering of the cloud point is generally done by addition of heavier (higher boiling range) components (Napthalenes and aromatics) and other additives, but this also reduces fuel energy and consequently mileage suffers. Winter fuel is less economical and lighter than heavier summer fuel. As the temperature drops further, some hydrocarbons continue to remain liquid, but others form wax. The net result of very low temperatures (-50F?) is that what was liquid fuel at +50F can resemble a thick gel.


http://www.citgo.com/Products/FuelGasoline/Diesel.jsp
Even CITGO states... "Winterized Diesel" in certain areas (does not state all areas).

As you can see... winterized diesel is not the same everywhere or even sold everywhere. There is no need for it in Southern States and no need for the extra money of #1D or additives if the cold temps are not seen in that region. The retailer does not know or care if a driver is going Northbound or SOuthbound... just as long as their pumps do not gell-up.

And yes... I do drive to many different states and do fill up with winterized and non-winterized diesel. Instead of making assumptions, post articles and links that prove YOUR point... as in "all diesel sold from mid-October to whenever" is winterized... even in FL, CA,TX and the like". Good luck, you won't because it isn't... but I am all for you proving your point/assumption.
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  #21 (permalink)  
Old 12-10-2006, 11:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Leader
If most of your fuel is less then 2 Mo's old, you have winter fuel & don't need to worry about it. As stated, if it does gel up, just wait till temps get back above 0 and you'll be fine.
Just filled up today here in Kansas City at the local Quick-Trip truck stop. They operate at least 4 truck-stops that I know of and at least have 6 - 8 diesel lanes (so they are high volume and know their stuff).

More to the point.... their diesel is NOT winterized. They buy good ol' #2D and only add additves to the tank when the temps start getting around 0F and below for extended periods of time. They no longer have a "winterized fuel lane" and do not pay for "all winterized".

For the record.. this was from the Quick-Trip truck stop in Platte City, MO and she confirmed that all of them here in KC operatew the same way.

So.... the assumption that all fuel as of mid-October or so is winterized... is just foolish, is an assumption and can cause problems for some... hence the reason some of add anti-gel to every tank so we do not have to worry about it... or if the right amount of additives was put in by the station.

I love a good post where people post "assumptions as a fact" that can be so easily rebuked and proven wrong... so I guess it is not how many miles you drive or what states you drive in (as you posted in one of your posts above)... but doing some research, asking questions and just using good ol' common sense.

Not trying to flame you in any way or call you out... but you were the one that called me out by posting all the states you drive in and that even the "warm weather states" use winterized fuel.
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  #22 (permalink)  
Old 12-11-2006, 12:03 AM
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I have been working on diesel equipment for 20 years and I have never seen anybody or fuel company that, according to their propaganda, agree on a cloudpoint for diesel fuel. Winterized or not. The closest thing that I was ever told was that the crude oil that the fuel came from will determine the cloudpoint. That can vary from what part of the world it came from. It's not all the same.

The other night it was 6 degrees here,windchill was 0. I was working late and I started a tractor and jumped a truck that I was bringing in the shop to strip the frame down. Funny thing was that the truck hadn't had fuel put in it since July, the tractor hadn't had fuel put in it since Aug. when I finished bush hogging with it for the year. By what most "things" say I should have had jello. I didn't. It is rare that you have a waxing problem unless you are in a very cold climate. I don't use additives because I haven't ever had a problem with waxing and I don't know what the suppliers have used because I don't think they know. It's been proven in test cells at Cat and Cummins that to much of any additive can be damaging to an engine. I have been to failure analysis seminars and have seen evidence and I see it every winter. It's simple economics. The additives companies tell you to use as much as they know you can use without risking the liability of a person sueing them for siezed injectors. If they knew there wouldn't be a problem with having every dose increased by one ounce they would. They want to sell their product. I don't mined additive in my fuel but I don't fuel in my additive.
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Old 12-19-2006, 06:52 PM
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My fuel supplier for the farm told me they ALWAYS put in antigell and winterizer year round to eliminate problems for their customers. Which I appreciate when I use a combine in very cold weather and the fuel I received was in the early fall.

For cloud point from chevron specs go to : http://www.chevron.com/products/prod..._Exchange.shtm
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Old 01-15-2007, 02:03 PM
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New Ford Gelled up

I have a 2006 Ford F250 SuperDuty. It was running fine, plugged in everynight, has antigel added in, but still gelled up. How can I ungel the truck so that I may drive it. Other than taking it to the ford dealer and paying for it to be ungelled? My husband is taking my vehicle to work and I cannot get around right now. It has been -20 to 0 all week. Just broke 5 today.
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Old 01-15-2007, 02:26 PM
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Keep it plugged in and get a bottle of a product called Diesel-911. It comes in a red bottle, and it's the best product for gelled fuel I have found.
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Old 01-15-2007, 02:33 PM
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so even if it is already gelled this will ungel it?
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Old 01-15-2007, 02:35 PM
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Getting the truck in a warm garage will also ungell the fuel as well. It will take time and the filters may/will have to be replaced as they "clogged up" with the gelled fuel.

The Powerservice "911" formula in the red bottle, has alcohol and other "stuff" in it which is not to be used on a continous basis, but is designed for gelled motors/fuel that need to be ungelled!!!

1) Get truck into garage

2) Use space heater to warm garage

3) Replace fuel filters (some will free up after being warmed up.

4) Add fuel additives to try and liquify the fuel and prevent more gelling.

5) Fill up tank to reduce condensation in tank
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Old 01-15-2007, 02:39 PM
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how would you go about it if there is no garage available...
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Old 01-15-2007, 02:50 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fordnightcrawler
how would you go about it if there is no garage available...
1) You may have too tow to a garage or dealer (or someone that has on).

2) The tank may have gelled up and/or just the fuel filters (2 of them) and these may have to be replaced... but it is very cold to be laying on the ground to work on it!!!

3) Adding "anti-gel" will not liquify already gelled fuel... but only products designed and labled as such will work and must be added to the fuel filters and tank and let to sit for a bit to work its magic... and even them... getting the truck warm in a garage makes it quicker and easier.


You may be looking at a tow to a service garage or dealer to see if it will 'ungell" on its own. Maybe they will just let it sit in a corner for 1/2 day and not charge you... or they could change the filters for you?

What brand of fuel additives were you using (as you stated above) and how much of it in your tank? Fuel additives only work down to a certain temp and sometimes more has to be added to get better (lower) coverage/protection.
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Old 01-15-2007, 03:06 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fordnightcrawler
how would you go about it if there is no garage available...
If it's completely gelled and will not run at all, get a clean fuel filter, that may be where it is gelled, put a bit of 911 in the filter housing with the new filter, put the rest of the bottle in the tank, and cycle the ignition key a few times to pump some fuel. That should get you going.

When it gets that cold, it's a good idea to keep a bottle of 911 with you, you can add some as soon as the gel symptoms start and save a lot of headaches.
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Old 01-15-2007, 03:06 PM
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