Go Back   Ford Truck Enthusiasts Forums > Diesel > Bio-diesel, Propane & Alternative Diesel Engine Fuels
Sign in using an external account
Register Forgot Password?


Welcome to Ford-Trucks Forums!
Welcome to Ford-Trucks.com.

You are currently viewing our forums as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join the Ford-Trucks Forums community today!





 
Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread
  #1  
Old 11-25-2006, 06:05 PM
cpe41 cpe41 is offline
Senior User
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: north central Indiana
Posts: 339
cpe41 is starting off with a positive reputation.
Biodiesel Concerns

Just recently I received an e-mail from our IR/Bobcat regional service rep stressing the importance of a new Service Letter sent to all dealers. The SL discussed problems being encountered in the field from the use of biodiesel fuels and blends. Much of the information in the SL seemed relevant to any diesel engine, regardless of the usage, and may be of interest to some readers. Following are excerpts from that SL:

Effects of Biodiesel on the Fuel System

The unique qualities of biodiesel should be considered before it is used in any diesel engine. Biodiesel compared to petroleum diesel is unstable by nature and can cause unfavorable results. However, blends containing less than 5% biodiesel should have limited adverse effects. Concentrations of biodiesel greater than 5% could have harmful effects on engine performance, accelerate engine oil degradation and reduce fuel system durability. The effects, outlined below, become more serious as the concentration of biodiesel increases.

Compounds contained in biodiesel attack composite materials such as copper, brass, lead, tin, zinc, certain rubbers and plastics. High concentrations of biodiesel may reduce engine service life by corroding internal components of the fuel injection pump, fuel lines, and degrading seals.

Biodiesel works as an effective solvent which can loosen deposits where petroleum diesel fuel was previously used. Once these deposits are loosened in storage tanks or the machine fuel system they may prematurely plug fuel filters. If biodiesel is spilled on painted surfaces the paint can be damaged.

Under normal engine operation, a small amount of any fuel will seep past the piston rings and into the oil pan due to incomplete combustion of the fuel. Biodiesel has a higher viscosity than petroleum diesel which results in greater incomplete combustion and more contamination of engine oil compared to petroleum diesel. This reduces engine oil service life and requires engine oil change intervals to be shortened.

Typically biodiesel has a higher cloud point or will form wax at a higher temperature than petroleum diesel. As the concentration of biodiesel in a blend increases, the cloud point also increases. This condition can result in plugged fuel systems, hard starting and reduced engine performance during cold weather.

Storage of biodiesel for extended periods of time may be challenging because biodiesel is hygroscopic, or absorbs water. The increased water content provides an excellent medium for microbial growth and contamination. Water and microbial contamination can corrode fuel system components and prematurely plug fuel filters.

Pure biodiesel does not have the same energy content when compared to the same quantity of petroleum diesel. Biodiesel provides lower engine power and fuel economy compared to petroleum diesel.

Fuel Standards

The American Society for Testing and Materials (ASTM) is the premier standard setting organization for fuels worldwide. ASTM standard D975 specifies the required properties for petroleum based diesel fuel and ASTM standard D6751 outlines the required biodiesel properties.

Usage

Diesel engines are engineered with great precision and are sensitive to the fuel they use. A significant amount of biodiesel on the market today does not meet ASTM and EN590 standards. Never use any fuel that does not meet specifications or fuel in which the contents cannot be determined.

Biodiesel does not have long term stability. DO NOT use biodiesel if a machine will not be operated for periods of time exceeding three months. When preparing a machine for storage, the fuel system should be flushed. Flush the fuel system by draining the machine fuel tank, refill the tank with pure petrolem diesel then operate the engine at least 30 minutes before storage.


Those are the major points of the Service Letter. A number of dealers are apparently seeing some major problems stemming from the use of biodiesel, hence the SL. Take it for what you will.
__________________
"Thinking is the hardest work there is, which is probably why so few engage in it"....Henry Ford
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 11-26-2006, 11:10 AM
kennedyford's Avatar
kennedyford kennedyford is offline
Posting Guru
 
Join Date: May 2005
Location: Phoenix Arizona
Posts: 1,538
kennedyford is starting off with a positive reputation.
Exclamation

Well it is appearing as if the " Conspiracy theorist" have shifted to attacking biodiesel. Here is some facts

Biodiesel has an insanely large amount of vitamin E and will not grow bacteria unless the quality of fuel is sub par

Bio does not absorb water or moisture in pure form

Many major producers are not completing the transverification (spelling) process leaving the bio in semi state of bio and glycerin mass

Yes it will clog fuel filters if such areas are dirty and built up

Yes it will clog if not fully transformed into bio

The oil life is extended, we have users here on home brew that check oil and it still is in the honey colored new state. ( Home brew is higher quality)

Bio is rated 4 cetane points higher then petroleum.

There is plenty of articles on these topics from univerisities and private industry
__________________
585,000+ miles on original engine. Goldie 00 F-350
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 11-26-2006, 04:14 PM
fabmandelux's Avatar
fabmandelux fabmandelux is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Paradise Found!
Posts: 21,697
fabmandelux has a superb reputationfabmandelux has a superb reputationfabmandelux has a superb reputationfabmandelux has a superb reputationfabmandelux has a superb reputationfabmandelux has a superb reputationfabmandelux has a superb reputationfabmandelux has a superb reputationfabmandelux has a superb reputationfabmandelux has a superb reputationfabmandelux has a superb reputation
I have a PDF document from Professer VonGerpin [ one of the leading biodiesel researchers in the world] that shows that B-100 causes LESS wear on diesels than dino-diesel. I cannot post it here, but if anyone wants a copy I'll gladly send it to you if you PM me your email address!



FABMANDELUX.
__________________
Oregon Chapter Leader My friends call me Don.
"I always keep a supply of stimulants handy in case I see a snake, which I also keep handy" WC Fields

RIP Steve Price. A true friend and a tireless supporter of FTE
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 11-26-2006, 08:29 PM
member33094 member33094 is offline
Freshman User
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 31
member33094 is starting off with a positive reputation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fabmandelux
I have a PDF document from Professer VonGerpin [ one of the leading biodiesel researchers in the world] that shows that B-100 causes LESS wear on diesels than dino-diesel. I cannot post it here, but if anyone wants a copy I'll gladly send it to you if you PM me your email address!



FABMANDELUX.
That maybe very true but, the above problems with bio diesel do not say anything about bio diesel causing wear on the engine its self.

Last edited by member33094; 11-26-2006 at 08:32 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 11-26-2006, 08:46 PM
fabmandelux's Avatar
fabmandelux fabmandelux is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Paradise Found!
Posts: 21,697
fabmandelux has a superb reputationfabmandelux has a superb reputationfabmandelux has a superb reputationfabmandelux has a superb reputationfabmandelux has a superb reputationfabmandelux has a superb reputationfabmandelux has a superb reputationfabmandelux has a superb reputationfabmandelux has a superb reputationfabmandelux has a superb reputationfabmandelux has a superb reputation
Quote:
Originally Posted by member33094
That maybe very true but, the above problems with bio diesel do not say anything about bio diesel causing wear on the engine its self.

"Compounds contained in biodiesel attack composite materials such as copper, brass, lead, tin, zinc, certain rubbers and plastics. High concentrations of biodiesel may reduce engine service life by corroding internal components of the fuel injection pump, fuel lines, and degrading seals."


This was the "dis-information" I was refuting.....................


FABMANDELUX.
__________________
Oregon Chapter Leader My friends call me Don.
"I always keep a supply of stimulants handy in case I see a snake, which I also keep handy" WC Fields

RIP Steve Price. A true friend and a tireless supporter of FTE
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 11-26-2006, 08:50 PM
member33094 member33094 is offline
Freshman User
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 31
member33094 is starting off with a positive reputation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fabmandelux
"Compounds contained in biodiesel attack composite materials such as copper, brass, lead, tin, zinc, certain rubbers and plastics. High concentrations of biodiesel may reduce engine service life by corroding internal components of the fuel injection pump, fuel lines, and degrading seals."


This was the "dis-information" I was refuting.....................


FABMANDELUX.
So this document that you have says that bio diesel extends the life of materals such as copper, brass, lead, tin, zinc, certain rubbers and plastics
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 11-26-2006, 08:54 PM
member33094 member33094 is offline
Freshman User
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 31
member33094 is starting off with a positive reputation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fabmandelux
"Compounds contained in biodiesel attack composite materials such as copper, brass, lead, tin, zinc, certain rubbers and plastics. High concentrations of biodiesel may reduce engine service life by corroding internal components of the fuel injection pump, fuel lines, and degrading seals."


This was the "dis-information" I was refuting.....................


FABMANDELUX.
and extends the life of internal components like the fuel injection pump, fuel lines, and seals
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 11-26-2006, 09:45 PM
fabmandelux's Avatar
fabmandelux fabmandelux is offline
Moderator
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Paradise Found!
Posts: 21,697
fabmandelux has a superb reputationfabmandelux has a superb reputationfabmandelux has a superb reputationfabmandelux has a superb reputationfabmandelux has a superb reputationfabmandelux has a superb reputationfabmandelux has a superb reputationfabmandelux has a superb reputationfabmandelux has a superb reputationfabmandelux has a superb reputationfabmandelux has a superb reputation
Quote:
Originally Posted by member33094
So this document that you have says that bio diesel extends the life of materals such as copper, brass, lead, tin, zinc, certain rubbers and plastics


Exactly.......Want a copy?


FABMANDELUX.
__________________
Oregon Chapter Leader My friends call me Don.
"I always keep a supply of stimulants handy in case I see a snake, which I also keep handy" WC Fields

RIP Steve Price. A true friend and a tireless supporter of FTE

Last edited by fabmandelux; 11-26-2006 at 09:47 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 11-26-2006, 10:07 PM
member33094 member33094 is offline
Freshman User
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 31
member33094 is starting off with a positive reputation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by fabmandelux
Exactly.......Want a copy?


FABMANDELUX.
No, but thanks anyway. Gotta go with who pays for warrenty work.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 11-27-2006, 06:28 AM
cpe41 cpe41 is offline
Senior User
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: north central Indiana
Posts: 339
cpe41 is starting off with a positive reputation.
As I see it, scientists and researchers can write whatever they choose to in their theoretical papers. What the Service Letter and the e-mail from the Service Rep are based on is real world, in-the-field events. Problems and failures are occuring that are related to the use of biodiesel fuel or biodiesel blends. That is a fact, not conjecture. Real technicians in real dealerships are seeing real failures. Enough problems have occured to prompt this communication to all dealerships.

Although I'm not privy to the precise details of each problem/failure, I do know that if I/R Bobcat takes this seriously, so should I. As stated before, gotta go with who pays for warranty work.
__________________
"Thinking is the hardest work there is, which is probably why so few engage in it"....Henry Ford
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 11-27-2006, 11:31 AM
Wheatina's Avatar
Wheatina Wheatina is offline
Senior User
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Eastern Washington State
Posts: 200
Wheatina is starting off with a positive reputation.
Apparently, there can be problems with older diesels built before 1995...you have to know what your fuel system has in the way of hoses and seals. Maybe IR/Bobcat is seeing problems with older models, or are still using the older type of hoses and seals.

The benefits WAY out weigh the "potential or speculated" problems for me...I'll still use it and replace parts if and when necessary. It think manufacturers and dealers will try real hard to cover their butts by throwing out speculative info...show me the real data. I've heard way more positives than negatives, and people actually using biodiesel are the ones I want to talk to first.

This was taken from the BioWillie web site...(http://www.wnbiodiesel.com/products.html)
*********Are there any problems using Biodiesel?
Click the image to open in full size.Biodiesel, over time, will soften and degrade certain types of elastomers and natural rubber compounds used in older fuel hoses and pump seal systems. Precautions are needed when using high percent blends to ensure that the existing fueling system on older engines do not contain elastomer compounds incompatible with Biodiesel. Manufacturers recommend that natural or butyl rubbers not be allowed to come in contact with neat Biodiesel otherwise they turn sticky and fall apart. Most vehicles made after 1994 will have fully synthetic fuel lines and seals so will not suffer from this problem, but older vehicles need to be monitored.

Biodiesel will clean your injectors and fuel lines extremely well as it is such an excellent solvent. If you have an old diesel vehicle, there is a chance that your first tank or two of Biodiesel could free up all the accumulated crud and clog your fuel lines. First time bunkering you need to be aware that Biodiesel has a solvent effect which may release deposits accumulated on tank walls and pipes from previous fuel storage. The release of deposits may clog filters initially and precautions should be taken as the tanks are cleaned out by the Biodiesel.
*******************
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 11-27-2006, 11:49 AM
bigredtruckmi's Avatar
bigredtruckmi bigredtruckmi is offline
Postmaster
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Grand Ledge, Michigan
Posts: 4,617
bigredtruckmi has a good reputation on FTE.bigredtruckmi has a good reputation on FTE.bigredtruckmi has a good reputation on FTE.
For information from OEM about biodiesel which meets specs www.biodiesel.org is the authority on this subject. All major engine manufacturers warranty B5 and some will warranty B20 fuels. Another source for info www.crystalflash.com which is my fuel supplier look under warranties they have compiled a list.
__________________
red 04 F250 build date 04/04 6.0 PSD
2013 gulfstream canyon trail fifth wheel Aztec edition 40 ft
Vietnam Vet/ OS1 USN/USNR retired 26 years
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 11-27-2006, 03:03 PM
Phydeaux88's Avatar
Phydeaux88 Phydeaux88 is offline
Posting Guru
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: South Texas Coast
Posts: 1,569
Phydeaux88 is gaining momentum as a positive member of FTE.Phydeaux88 is gaining momentum as a positive member of FTE.
cpe41
What you received as a warning, from Bobcat, is right out of the Engine Manufacturer Associations (EMA) position paper on Biodiesel.

They are rightly concerned that people using inadequately cleaned BD will damage engines. Commercially available BD should meet ASTM standards and if it doesn't you would have a very strong case for the fuel suppliere buying your new engine.

The truth is that good clean BD is every bit as safe as petro Diesel and has better lubricity. The advent of ULSD makes the latter very important because the inherent lubricating properties of petro diesel are due to the sulfer content.

Notice I said clean BD is as safe as petro. If the company doing the conversion does not ensure complete removal or neutralization of the acidic and/or basic chemicals used to convert VO to BD it is possible that metalic engine parts containing copper, brass, lead, tin, and zinc could be damaged. The secret is a good cleaning process and monitoring the product for residual contaminants.

The deterioration of natural rubber seals and O-rings is a known problem but not much of one since most engine makers replaced rubber parts with Vitron (I think thats how its spelled) over 10 years ago.

Cloudpoint is an issue that can easily be handled by blending with petro. The cleaning effect of BD is also a known, easily handled by inspecting filters regularly and changing when needed for the first few tanks of BD.

As to the instability problem that is largely addressed by clean BD - remove the contimanants and stability improves - and the conversion process - water was and air dry increases instability: Methanol recovery, allow to settle, then magnesol cleansing increases stability.
__________________
2006 F350 4X4 Crew Cab King Ranch edition strictly factory, for now.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 11-27-2006, 09:22 PM
willbd willbd is offline
Senior User
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Woodburn, OR
Posts: 448
willbd is starting off with a positive reputation.
Check out a real world test by the park service

In 1995 Yellowstone National Park began a test project running a Dodge pickup on 100% biodiesel. To date this truck has travled over 185,000 miles while using no petroleum fuels. In 1999 the Green Energy Parks program initated the use biodiesel in 18 National Park Service areas. Currently there are 23 areas using biodiesel and biodiesel blend fuels with an additional six areas that are implementing programs in the spring of 2005. The listing of parks and a link to a spreadsheet listing over 675 pieces of equipment running biodiesel and biodiesel blends in the National Parks is avaliable at the NPS Biodiesel Webpage.

http://www.nps.gov/renew/yellbio.htm
__________________
95 F350 SC PSD Auto 4.10 Pro-Tech Aluminum Flatbed with side boxes AutoMeter Transmission and Boost gauges 6637 Filter mod 160K miles B&M 24K Transmission cooler Diamond Eye stainless steel exhaust 2 tank WVO

Bryan Will
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 12-01-2006, 09:47 AM
Wheatina's Avatar
Wheatina Wheatina is offline
Senior User
 
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Eastern Washington State
Posts: 200
Wheatina is starting off with a positive reputation.
Willbd...this was really interesting. Sure would like to see the service logs to see if there are any indications of BD related problems. Noticed there were some Bobcats in the big list.

Do you know if there is any more recent info on how this is going?? Or, any info about BD related problems??
Reply With Quote
Old 12-01-2006, 09:47 AM
Reply

Go Back   Ford Truck Enthusiasts Forums > Diesel > Bio-diesel, Propane & Alternative Diesel Engine Fuels

Tags
biodiesel, bobcat, diesel, ford, incompatible, tanks

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On
Forum Jump



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:58 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Advertising - Terms of Use - Privacy Statement - Jobs
This forum is owned and operated by Internet Brands, Inc., a Delaware corporation. It is not authorized or endorsed by the Ford Motor Company and is not affiliated with the Ford Motor Company or its related companies in any way. FordŽ is a registered trademark of the Ford Motor Company.

vbulletin Admin Backup