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Old 10-27-2006, 05:39 PM
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Question for Phydeaux88

Need your expert opinion please. Some of the other boards I belong to have been discussing this: http://www.survivalunlimited.com//biodiesel.htm

To me it looks like another "snake-oil" scam. I haven't been able to find any other referance in any scientific journals, and none of my contacts in the Biodiesel industry have heard anything about it.

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Old 10-28-2006, 07:58 PM
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I haven't studied this reaction enough to know for sure what is going on but I will look at it closely; although, with out percentages and the "proprietary" components it will be guess work at best.

I will say one thing, the following statement from the survival unlimited web page is more than a little troubling:

Caution! (GCC) can cause burns to skin and eyes! Irritant - Rinse eyes and skin immediately in case of accidental contact. Note: GCC is only very slightly flammable BUT once ignited cannot be put out by any type of fire extinguisher!Store in cool place away from light and at least 100 feet away from all dwelling structures and adjacent buildings! GCC is a highly reactive substance, best stored in a concrete bunker, fire proof safe or other fire proof storage building. Keep away from children! Once mixed into fuel GCC no longer presents any of its fire or irritation hazards. Makes environmentally safe oil fuels guaranteed!
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Last edited by Phydeaux88; 10-28-2006 at 08:01 PM.
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Old 10-28-2006, 09:10 PM
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Here are some more thoughts on the same subject:

From what I gather this is an attempt to improve the usability of VO by converting what free glycerin is present into alcohol thereby improving the viscosity of the VO. The alcohol is supposed to burn along with the "purified" VO.

There are some problems with this concept:

First understand that an equation for a chemical reaction can be read both ways. Using a very simplified equation one can say 3FFA + Glycerol = VO
the equation can be restated as VO = 3FFA + Glycerol.
What this all means is that in any bottle of VO all 3 molecules will be present the ratio will depend on several environmental factors such as temperature and the presence of contaminants which may catalyze the reaction.

Second the equation will try to stay balanced so if you attempt to remove one of the components, in this case converting glycerol to propanol, you will drive the reaction in the direction that produces the deficient component even if other components on that side of the equation become excessive. In this case it means you may well end up with a high concentration of FFAs.
By the way this is why the two phase base/base system works as well as it does. Glycerol is removed driving the reaction in the direction that produces glycerol, which also happens to produce that stuff we all love BD.

Third Propanol exists in two forms propan-1-ol and propan-2-ol. Both forms are quite volatile and have flash points in the neighborhood of 15 degrees C. I cannot help but believe this will effect the way the fuel burns.
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Last edited by Phydeaux88; 10-28-2006 at 09:14 PM.
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Old 10-29-2006, 01:53 PM
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Thank you Phydeaux for taking the time to look into this. I did get A's in chemistry, but that was 40 years ago My work is mainly mechanical so I can use all the help I can get with chemistry!

I received an email from a Prof friend at the University of Idaho last night and he said just about the same thing you did. He also said that nobody he's talked to knows anything about this either, and he has 25 years working with Biodiesel!

I guess the "scam-artists" are out in force now...............
Thanks again,

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Old 10-29-2006, 06:42 PM
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You are quite welcome glad to scrape a little mud off for ya.

You are right about scam artists I think the higher the price of fuel the more of thes guys will come out of the woodwork.
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Old 10-30-2006, 08:20 PM
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Originally Posted by Phydeaux88
You are quite welcome glad to scrape a little mud off for ya.

You are right about scam artists I think the higher the price of fuel the more of thes guys will come out of the woodwork.

I have another question for ya........I've had this idea running around my head [ ya Troy, I'm at it again!] If glycerol is basicly a sugar, could it be fermented into an alcohol? It seems to me we could take the glycerol with the methanol removed and convert it to an alcohol, which could be used as a replacement for the Methanol? Would this be possible? [ like I need another project......]


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Old 10-30-2006, 08:48 PM
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Glycerol is already an alcohol. It's in a a family of carbohydrates with multiple hydroxyl (OH) groups that are known as sugar alcohols, because of their sweet taste.

for example propanol exists as propan-1-ol the formula is CH3-CH2-CH2(OH) another version of propanol is propan-2-ol formula is CH3-CH(OH)-CH3 its also called isopropyl alcohol - thats the stuff you buy at the drugstore to use as a disinfectant.

Glycerol is more acurately propan-1,2,3-triol formula CH2(OH)-CH(OH)-CH2(OH).
the real trick would be to split it into 3 CH3(OH) (methanol)
I suspect this would be an energy negative process.

In case you haven't guessed by now organic compounds that end in "ol" are all alcohols

Now here is a project for you to pursue - refine the glycerol to pharmaceutical grade and sell it.
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Last edited by Phydeaux88; 10-30-2006 at 09:03 PM.
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Old 10-30-2006, 09:11 PM
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Now you've done it! You really have my interest now. Let's just say for now that energy is not a problem[ I have a burner that burns raw glycerol very well ] and can create temps in excess of 1,600 deg F. I also have 3 biodiesel companys that are willing to PAY me to take their glycerol, and even pay for shipping! I have also been offered a "no-cost" contract to haul 10 MILLION gallons/ year of raw glycerol. What would it take as far as production equipment to do this? My experimental work so far has been to use it as a binder for pelletizing waste straw. I do have a reflux-still, would this do the conversion?

I looked into refining the glycerol about 18 months ago. I've done it on a lab sized scale, but scaling up seems to be way to expensive. Besides, the world refined glycern market is glutted, and prices have fallen by 40 percent!


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Last edited by fabmandelux; 10-30-2006 at 09:34 PM.
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Old 10-30-2006, 09:24 PM
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HMM a reflux still might work at least for part of the process.
When you get that chromatograph fired up check a sample and find out what impurities are present. I am sure you will have a ton of Potassium.
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Old 10-30-2006, 09:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phydeaux88
HMM a reflux still might work at least for part of the process.
When you get that chromatograph fired up check a sample and find out what impurities are present. I am sure you will have a ton of Potassium.

The U of I did test some of my glycerol, and it mainly contained KOH, a small amount of NaOH, and water. What would it take to remove the NaOH and KOH?


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Old 10-31-2006, 12:01 AM
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Check this site out.
http://www.eetcorp.com/heepm/glycerine.htm
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Last edited by Phydeaux88; 10-31-2006 at 12:36 AM.
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Old 10-31-2006, 09:20 PM
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[QUOTE=Phydeaux88]Check this site out.
http://www.eetcorp.com/heepm/glycerine.htm[/QUOTE]

Very, very interesting! I think I'll call them, they have a "lab" size unit I may want to order! This looks better and better the more I look in to it............Thanks for the help, I'm sure I'll be asking more questions as I proceed!


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Old 10-31-2006, 09:24 PM
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Any time I can help!
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Old 10-31-2006, 11:01 PM
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Burning glycerol

http://www.ethanolproducer.com/artic...rticle_id=2070

Could you burn glycerol in a fliud bed reactor?
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Old 11-01-2006, 06:35 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by willbd
http://www.ethanolproducer.com/article.jsp?article_id=2070

Could you burn glycerol in a fliud bed reactor?
In a word, YES! But it's not really nesessary, It can be burned directly in a "babington" burner.


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