Which 3spd OD's w/223
#1
12-29-2002, 05:21 PM
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Which 3spd OD's w/223
Folks,
Which 3 speed overdrives will work behind a 223? I've seen references to T-85N's, T-86's, and T-89's. I'm looking for one that has the deepest 1st gear, is fully synchronized, and is durable.
I think that would be the T-85N, but will it work or can it be adapted to bolt up to my 223 3 speed bellhousing? How about input shaft length?
Thanks for any overdrive wisdom.
Brett
Which 3 speed overdrives will work behind a 223? I've seen references to T-85N's, T-86's, and T-89's. I'm looking for one that has the deepest 1st gear, is fully synchronized, and is durable.
I think that would be the T-85N, but will it work or can it be adapted to bolt up to my 223 3 speed bellhousing? How about input shaft length?
Thanks for any overdrive wisdom.
Brett
#2
01-02-2003, 11:54 PM
Which 3spd OD's w/223
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 03-Jan-03 AT 01:11 AM (EST)]AFAIK the T86 was the only stock o/d, and it was rated as a light-duty tranny. I acquired a T86 that supposedly came off a Studebaker; the only real difference seemed to be the input shaft diameter, which was a problem. Which I haven't solved yet.
Maybe there's an O/D tranny that'll fit onto the 4-speed 223 bellhousing? Or get a catalog from Trans-Dapt;
I've considered changing to a 3.00 diff and running a 4 speed, which should make 4th gear act like an overdrive.
Also check this thread:
https://www.ford-trucks.com/dcforum/DCForumID27/2584.html
"I've seen a Clark 250 (5sp) bolted up to a 223."
Maybe there's an O/D tranny that'll fit onto the 4-speed 223 bellhousing? Or get a catalog from Trans-Dapt;
I've considered changing to a 3.00 diff and running a 4 speed, which should make 4th gear act like an overdrive.
Also check this thread:
https://www.ford-trucks.com/dcforum/DCForumID27/2584.html
"I've seen a Clark 250 (5sp) bolted up to a 223."
#3
01-03-2003, 07:29 PM
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Which 3spd OD's w/223
Angus,
Thanks for the info. I've been digging and discovered that my 223 bellhousing has the old narrow ford tranny bolt pattern ('5-boltV8'), as opposed to the '65 up ('butterfly') pattern. Most trans built after '65 are drilled for both patterns. My current 3 speed input shaft is the large 1-3/8"x 10 spline with about a 7" stickout. As a side note, windsor trannies supposedly had the longer 7" stickout, while FE trannies had the shorter 6.5" stickout. A deeper pilot bushing can compensate for a shorter input shaft. Most trans '65 up have the 1-1/16"x10 spline input shaft. I found a T85N out of a Ford car. It has the narrow bolt pattern, but the smaller 1-1/16"x10 spline input shaft with a 6.5" stickout. This tranny also has the 'R10' lighter warner overdrive instead of the heavier 'R11' overdrive used in pickups.
These overdrive trannies are scarce as hen's teeth. I'm opening up to other options. One suggestion was to adapt a 70's-80's top loader. The gear ratios would be comparable. But I'm partial to having the shifter up on the column and don't want to cut a whole in the floor for a shifter. It's part of the character of the truck. Does anybody have any suggestions for dealing with the third shift arm? I suppose I could modify the column to accept a third shift arm. That would be 'unique' to have a 4 speed on the column.
Open to any suggestions,
Thanks,
Brett
Thanks for the info. I've been digging and discovered that my 223 bellhousing has the old narrow ford tranny bolt pattern ('5-boltV8'), as opposed to the '65 up ('butterfly') pattern. Most trans built after '65 are drilled for both patterns. My current 3 speed input shaft is the large 1-3/8"x 10 spline with about a 7" stickout. As a side note, windsor trannies supposedly had the longer 7" stickout, while FE trannies had the shorter 6.5" stickout. A deeper pilot bushing can compensate for a shorter input shaft. Most trans '65 up have the 1-1/16"x10 spline input shaft. I found a T85N out of a Ford car. It has the narrow bolt pattern, but the smaller 1-1/16"x10 spline input shaft with a 6.5" stickout. This tranny also has the 'R10' lighter warner overdrive instead of the heavier 'R11' overdrive used in pickups.
These overdrive trannies are scarce as hen's teeth. I'm opening up to other options. One suggestion was to adapt a 70's-80's top loader. The gear ratios would be comparable. But I'm partial to having the shifter up on the column and don't want to cut a whole in the floor for a shifter. It's part of the character of the truck. Does anybody have any suggestions for dealing with the third shift arm? I suppose I could modify the column to accept a third shift arm. That would be 'unique' to have a 4 speed on the column.
Open to any suggestions,
Thanks,
Brett
#5
01-10-2003, 12:17 PM
Which 3spd OD's w/223
An early 60's car o/d would bolt in, but you would have to fabricate a clutch arm bracket. They are a heavier duty unit with the inspection plate on top like a T & C ( toploader ) 4 speed. A plus with these trucks is that there is no rear tranny mount to deal with in a swap like that.
#6
01-10-2003, 12:40 PM
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Which 3spd OD's w/223
I've got a 3sp/OD transmission that was extra with the truck I bought (my truck has a standard 3sp transmission). My OD trans has the characters 'R10' so I'll assume that it's a light duty OD. How do I identify the transmission itself? Mostly I'm just curious because I now have two standard 3 speed transmissions and one OD transmission.
Also, what recommendations would people make about controls for the overdrive? In the stock application there were goveners involved but a Ford Truck restoration book I have says that the OD can be manually switched but you have to be careful not to back up with the OD engaged.
#7
01-11-2003, 11:32 AM
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Which 3spd OD's w/223
Paul,
I've been trying to come up with some ID chart myself. This is long, but bear with me because I've asked this question numerous times, and so have others. OK, use the divide and conquer method. Differentiate between Ford and Borg Warner trans using the casting numbers on the main case. Post-60 Fords will have the characteristic xxxx-xxxx type layout, like say 'C4AZ-7017' (1964, 'C'=6, '4'=4), or may have 'FoMoCo', or even 'Ford' cast into them. Borg Warner's are somewhat more cryptic. Some actually have the model number cast into them; T85, T86, T87, T89, T10, others have only a casting number that means the bare casting only, which could be used on more than one model of trans. This info I got off the web and have not 100% verified:
BORG-WARNER T85 1955-65 Cars, 1965-71 Trucks: Cast iron, side loaded case with curved bottom 9-bolt side cover. Non-synchronized 1st gear with 36 tooth brass synchro rings for 2nd/3rd with a four-step cluster gear. Mainshaft for 1st/reverse gear has a helical angle pitched to the left or right. No top cover.
BORG-WARNER T86 1956-67 Cars, 1957-64 Trucks: Cast iron, top loaded case with the shifter on the side. Non-synchronized 1st gear with 30 or 33 tooth brass synchro rings for 2nd/3rd with a four-step cluster gear. Mainshaft for 1st/Reverse gear has a helical angle pitched to the right or left. 6 bolt top cover, no side cover.
BORG-WARNER T87 1948-75 Trucks: Cast iron, top loaded case with 9-bolt side cover. Non-synchronized 1st gear with 27 tooth brass synchro rings for 2nd/ 3rd with a four-step cluster gear. Mainshaft for 1st/Reverse gear is straight cut.
BORG-WARNER T89 1956-71 Trucks: Cast iron, top loaded case with 9-bolt side cover. Non-synchronized 1st gear with 36 tooth brass synchro rings for 2nd/3rd with a four-step cluster gear. Mainshaft for 1st/Reverse gear is straight cut.
Ford built a wide variety of tranmissions.
FORD 277 HED 1960-66 Cars: Cast iron, top loaded case with 4-bolt tin top cover. The extension housing can be either cast iron or aluminum with the shifter on the side. Non-synchronized 1st gear with 24 tooth brass synchro rings for 2nd/3rd with a four-step cluster gear. Mainshaft for 1st/Reverse gear has a helical angle pitched to the left or right. Found only in 6 cylinder applications
TREMEC RAB/RAN/RAT: 1965-78 Cars, 1965-87 Trucks Cast iron, side loaded case with a 9-bolt cover on top and side shifter linkage. Mainshaft reverse gear is located on the outside of the 1st gear synchro sleeve. The cluster gear is a 3-step helical cut gear.
Note: T&C Top Loaders came in both 3 and 4 speed models. The give away on the 4 speed is the 10 bolt top cover, which necks in at the front to accomodate the narrow bolt pattern. 3 speeds have 2 shift arms sticking out the side, and 4 speeds have 3 shift arms. I have also seen 3 speeds with 4, 6, and 9 top bolts covers, and haven't ID'd them.
Think of the Warner Overdrive in the tailhousing as a separate product, sort of mix and match with various trannies. The casting numbers R-9, R10, R11 prefix determines what torque capacity rating; bigger is more. The suffix is what car manufacturer it went to; -F1 means Ford, etc. The T86 overdrive was used in the earlier Ford trucks, and the T85 based over drive was used in the later Ford trucks. As far as the best means to control one of these, I would say the it would not be that hard to set it up as original. You have to have the cable, no matter what. The electricals are not much more than a couple of switches, a relay and some wire. I can get you a schematic if you are interested.
That was too long and I hope I didn't put you to sleep. Also, I would appreciate any additions or corrections for my folder.
Thanks,
Brett
I've been trying to come up with some ID chart myself. This is long, but bear with me because I've asked this question numerous times, and so have others. OK, use the divide and conquer method. Differentiate between Ford and Borg Warner trans using the casting numbers on the main case. Post-60 Fords will have the characteristic xxxx-xxxx type layout, like say 'C4AZ-7017' (1964, 'C'=6, '4'=4), or may have 'FoMoCo', or even 'Ford' cast into them. Borg Warner's are somewhat more cryptic. Some actually have the model number cast into them; T85, T86, T87, T89, T10, others have only a casting number that means the bare casting only, which could be used on more than one model of trans. This info I got off the web and have not 100% verified:
BORG-WARNER T85 1955-65 Cars, 1965-71 Trucks: Cast iron, side loaded case with curved bottom 9-bolt side cover. Non-synchronized 1st gear with 36 tooth brass synchro rings for 2nd/3rd with a four-step cluster gear. Mainshaft for 1st/reverse gear has a helical angle pitched to the left or right. No top cover.
BORG-WARNER T86 1956-67 Cars, 1957-64 Trucks: Cast iron, top loaded case with the shifter on the side. Non-synchronized 1st gear with 30 or 33 tooth brass synchro rings for 2nd/3rd with a four-step cluster gear. Mainshaft for 1st/Reverse gear has a helical angle pitched to the right or left. 6 bolt top cover, no side cover.
BORG-WARNER T87 1948-75 Trucks: Cast iron, top loaded case with 9-bolt side cover. Non-synchronized 1st gear with 27 tooth brass synchro rings for 2nd/ 3rd with a four-step cluster gear. Mainshaft for 1st/Reverse gear is straight cut.
BORG-WARNER T89 1956-71 Trucks: Cast iron, top loaded case with 9-bolt side cover. Non-synchronized 1st gear with 36 tooth brass synchro rings for 2nd/3rd with a four-step cluster gear. Mainshaft for 1st/Reverse gear is straight cut.
Ford built a wide variety of tranmissions.
FORD 277 HED 1960-66 Cars: Cast iron, top loaded case with 4-bolt tin top cover. The extension housing can be either cast iron or aluminum with the shifter on the side. Non-synchronized 1st gear with 24 tooth brass synchro rings for 2nd/3rd with a four-step cluster gear. Mainshaft for 1st/Reverse gear has a helical angle pitched to the left or right. Found only in 6 cylinder applications
TREMEC RAB/RAN/RAT: 1965-78 Cars, 1965-87 Trucks Cast iron, side loaded case with a 9-bolt cover on top and side shifter linkage. Mainshaft reverse gear is located on the outside of the 1st gear synchro sleeve. The cluster gear is a 3-step helical cut gear.
Note: T&C Top Loaders came in both 3 and 4 speed models. The give away on the 4 speed is the 10 bolt top cover, which necks in at the front to accomodate the narrow bolt pattern. 3 speeds have 2 shift arms sticking out the side, and 4 speeds have 3 shift arms. I have also seen 3 speeds with 4, 6, and 9 top bolts covers, and haven't ID'd them.
Think of the Warner Overdrive in the tailhousing as a separate product, sort of mix and match with various trannies. The casting numbers R-9, R10, R11 prefix determines what torque capacity rating; bigger is more. The suffix is what car manufacturer it went to; -F1 means Ford, etc. The T86 overdrive was used in the earlier Ford trucks, and the T85 based over drive was used in the later Ford trucks. As far as the best means to control one of these, I would say the it would not be that hard to set it up as original. You have to have the cable, no matter what. The electricals are not much more than a couple of switches, a relay and some wire. I can get you a schematic if you are interested.
That was too long and I hope I didn't put you to sleep. Also, I would appreciate any additions or corrections for my folder.
Thanks,
Brett
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#9
01-11-2003, 09:31 PM
Which 3spd OD's w/223
The overdrive electrics are pretty simple: there's a kickdown switch under the accelerator pedal and a relay which help disengage O/D when passing (it briefly shorts the points to take the load off while the solenoid operates). There's a solenoid and (I think...) a speed-sensing switch on the transmission. And a pull-handle for manually locking out the O/D.
I found an original Ford service booklet about the O/D tranny; if I were a better person I'd scan it and share it. Is there a website for stuff like that?
According to the 1960 Ford truck shop manual there was an O/D version of the Clark 250. (it's a 253 or something like that)
I found an original Ford service booklet about the O/D tranny; if I were a better person I'd scan it and share it. Is there a website for stuff like that?
According to the 1960 Ford truck shop manual there was an O/D version of the Clark 250. (it's a 253 or something like that)
#10
01-12-2003, 08:14 AM
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#11
01-12-2003, 11:33 AM
Which 3spd OD's w/223
>BORG-WARNER T87 1948-75 Trucks: Cast iron, top loaded case
>with 9-bolt side cover. Non-synchronized 1st gear with 27
>tooth brass synchro rings for 2nd/ 3rd with a four-step
>cluster gear. Mainshaft for 1st/Reverse gear is straight
>cut.
Brett,
Great info! I've got a T87D and everything matches your description except the "9-bolt side cover". The only side covers on mine are the front and rear bearing retainers. The front has four bolts and the rear has 5. Does "9-bolt side cover" come from adding these up?
https://www.ford-trucks.com/user_gallery/sizeimage.php?&photoid=12605&.jpg
https://www.ford-trucks.com/user_gallery/sizeimage.php?&photoid=12606&.jpg
George
Truck restoration - does the fun ever start?
See my 1956 F-250 in progress at www.clubfte.com/users/earl/index.html
>with 9-bolt side cover. Non-synchronized 1st gear with 27
>tooth brass synchro rings for 2nd/ 3rd with a four-step
>cluster gear. Mainshaft for 1st/Reverse gear is straight
>cut.
Brett,
Great info! I've got a T87D and everything matches your description except the "9-bolt side cover". The only side covers on mine are the front and rear bearing retainers. The front has four bolts and the rear has 5. Does "9-bolt side cover" come from adding these up?
https://www.ford-trucks.com/user_gallery/sizeimage.php?&photoid=12605&.jpg
https://www.ford-trucks.com/user_gallery/sizeimage.php?&photoid=12606&.jpg
George
Truck restoration - does the fun ever start?
See my 1956 F-250 in progress at www.clubfte.com/users/earl/index.html
#12
01-12-2003, 06:30 PM
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Which 3spd OD's w/223
George,
Your tranny sure doesn't have a side cover. I wonder if the internals are as described and if the rest of the descriptions are accurate. I went web cruising again. It looks more like the T-86 in this drawing:
[http://home.sprintmail.com/~bhabben/_uimages/t86id.jpg]
Another reference calls the T-85 basically the same tranny as T-89. T-85/89 had a 4th gear added and became T-10. In this drawing you can see what they are referring to as a curved 9 bolt side cover:
[http://home.sprintmail.com/~bhabben/_uimages/t85id.jpg]
OK, maybe the T-85 and T-89 are similar and the T-86 and T-87 are similiar.
More confusion....(and why I started the thread in the first place)
Brett
Your tranny sure doesn't have a side cover. I wonder if the internals are as described and if the rest of the descriptions are accurate. I went web cruising again. It looks more like the T-86 in this drawing:
[http://home.sprintmail.com/~bhabben/_uimages/t86id.jpg]
Another reference calls the T-85 basically the same tranny as T-89. T-85/89 had a 4th gear added and became T-10. In this drawing you can see what they are referring to as a curved 9 bolt side cover:
[http://home.sprintmail.com/~bhabben/_uimages/t85id.jpg]
OK, maybe the T-85 and T-89 are similar and the T-86 and T-87 are similiar.
More confusion....(and why I started the thread in the first place)
Brett
#13
01-12-2003, 07:13 PM
Which 3spd OD's w/223
[updated:LAST EDITED ON 01-12-03 AT 08:20 PM (EST)]Hmmm. I'm pretty sure it's a T87D and that code is cast into the housing. You can almost make it out in the first picture below.
https://www.ford-trucks.com/user_gallery/sizeimage.php?&photoid=12653&.jpg
https://www.ford-trucks.com/user_gallery/sizeimage.php?&photoid=12654&.jpg
https://www.ford-trucks.com/user_gallery/sizeimage.php?&photoid=12655&.jpg
The tranny also matches the pics and illustrations in the '56 shop manual for the T87D. If you'd like any more info just e-mail me and I'll be glad to provide anything I can.
One other thing I'm wondering is if a fairly large "WGD" cast in the housing stands for Warner Gear Division? When did they merge with Borg or was the company always Borg-Warner?
I really like it when folks take the time to put together accurate info on a whole line of engines, transmissions, body panels, or whatever. Gives us all a guru to ask and we know we'll get the right answer! Thanks again for all the effort to gather and check all the tranny info.
George
Truck restoration - does the fun ever start?
See my 1956 F-250 in progress at www.clubfte.com/users/earl/index.html
https://www.ford-trucks.com/user_gallery/sizeimage.php?&photoid=12653&.jpg
https://www.ford-trucks.com/user_gallery/sizeimage.php?&photoid=12654&.jpg
https://www.ford-trucks.com/user_gallery/sizeimage.php?&photoid=12655&.jpg
The tranny also matches the pics and illustrations in the '56 shop manual for the T87D. If you'd like any more info just e-mail me and I'll be glad to provide anything I can.
One other thing I'm wondering is if a fairly large "WGD" cast in the housing stands for Warner Gear Division? When did they merge with Borg or was the company always Borg-Warner?
I really like it when folks take the time to put together accurate info on a whole line of engines, transmissions, body panels, or whatever. Gives us all a guru to ask and we know we'll get the right answer! Thanks again for all the effort to gather and check all the tranny info.
George
Truck restoration - does the fun ever start?
See my 1956 F-250 in progress at www.clubfte.com/users/earl/index.html
#14
01-12-2003, 08:19 PM
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Which 3spd OD's w/223
George,
I believe you, as I've seen that trans before. Warner Gear Division sounds right, too. When they merged, etc. is something else to research.
Thanks,
Brett
PS. Over 20 years ago I drove a '56 F250 for a summer. Like an idiot let it slip away because it 'wasn't an F100'
DDOOOOOooooohhh!
I believe you, as I've seen that trans before. Warner Gear Division sounds right, too. When they merged, etc. is something else to research.
Thanks,
Brett
PS. Over 20 years ago I drove a '56 F250 for a summer. Like an idiot let it slip away because it 'wasn't an F100'
DDOOOOOooooohhh!
#15
01-12-2003, 08:31 PM
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Which 3spd OD's w/223
George,
One other thing, does that use the same bellhousing as the T98? Is the front bearing retainer/bellhousing index hole diameter 5.125"? Also, is the trans face bolt pattern 8.5" across the top, 4.62" down one side, and 2.75" down the other?
Jus' curious...
Thanks again,
Brett
One other thing, does that use the same bellhousing as the T98? Is the front bearing retainer/bellhousing index hole diameter 5.125"? Also, is the trans face bolt pattern 8.5" across the top, 4.62" down one side, and 2.75" down the other?
Jus' curious...
Thanks again,
Brett