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  #1  
Old 08-31-2006, 01:19 PM
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derherr65 derherr65 is offline
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Cheapest way to make 600 reliable horsepower?

I read the link in the read first post:
http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/te..._engine_build/

That's about what I'm going for. How do you make about 600 horsepower in a ford engine(FE, big block, small block, don't care), still have a reliable 93 octane burning engine, and do it the least expensive way? (No nitrous, I want all 600HP at any and all times.)

Some thoughts:
A junkyard V10 with cetrifugal supercharger?
A crate 460/514 with positive displacement and carburetor?
A crate 351W, stroked, supercharged, carb or FI?
A detuned NASCAR engine would be fun... but they run $13,500 or more.
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1977 F150 400 C6 2wd, 10.2 sec 1/8 mile with 2.75 gears.
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1965 Mustang. Mostly stock...
2001 Ram 2500, cummins, 5spd, 202k miles.(girlfriends)
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  #2  
Old 08-31-2006, 05:21 PM
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"Cheap 600 HP" is generally an oxymoron, just as saying "Cheap" in the same sentence as "520 crate" and "Supercharger":

520cid Crate + Blower:

Description......................Price...Qty..Exte nded
-------------------------------------------------------
M-6007-D514RT.520cid.Crate.Eng..$8100.....1......$8100
Dyer.Blower.6-71.w/intake.......$2500.....1......$2500
Edelbrock.600cfm................$.200.....2......$ .400
Incidentals.....................$.200.....1......$ .200
-------------------------------------------------------
.........................................Total:.$1 1200


Resourceful, cheap-monkey approach:

Description......................Price...Qty..Exte nded
-------------------------------------------------------
Junkyard.EFI.460.w/accessories...$350.....1......$.350
T4.Turbo.(Ebay)..................$250.....2......$ .500
T4/04.Turbo.Flange.(Ebay)........$.15.....2......$..3 0
Steel.-.19"x3.5"x0.50"...........$..9.....2......$..18
Black.Pipe.......................$.40.....1......$ ..40
87-93.Mustang.Engine.Harness.....$100.....1......$.10 0
A9P.or.A9L.EEC.(87-93.'stang)....$100.....1......$.100
60lb.EFI.H.I..Injectors.(ebay)...$350.....1......$ .350
Powerstroke.Intercooler.(ebay)...$120.....1......$ .120
Hoses,.Clamps,.etc...............$250.....1......$ .250
-------------------------------------------------------
.........................................Total:..$ 1858


Last edited by frederic; 08-31-2006 at 05:26 PM.
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  #3  
Old 08-31-2006, 05:37 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frederic
"Cheap 600 HP" is generally an oxymoron, just as saying "Cheap" in the same sentence as "520 crate" and "Supercharger":
Very true. But you have to get the idea across somehow. Though "most economical way to make 600HP" is a better description, "cheap power" draws more attention, and therefor more responses.

The junkyard route sounds interesting. Very time consuming, and you'll have to really screen the parts carefully, but DIY engines have a certain appeal over bought engines. Will the stock parts handle that power though? I suspect the block will, but I'm a little concerned about the rotating assembly.
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I suggest we solve high gas prices with environmentalists... unfortunately they don't burn well.
1977 F150 400 C6 2wd, 10.2 sec 1/8 mile with 2.75 gears.
1982 Mercedes 300CD, 220K miles
1965 Mustang. Mostly stock...
2001 Ram 2500, cummins, 5spd, 202k miles.(girlfriends)
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  #4  
Old 08-31-2006, 09:20 PM
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Hmm. I would have said gas, properly installed. I won't speak for longevity though.
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  #5  
Old 08-31-2006, 11:34 PM
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Summit, Ford Racing 460 C.I.D. Super Cobra Jet, 550 HP, $7100
Jegs, Ford Racing 514ci, 625hp, $8900
FORD RACING, M-6007-D514FT, 514 Cid, 625HP, $8100
sdpc2000.com, Ford racing 460cid Super Cobra Jet, 550HP, $6400
Jegs, Blueprint Engines 347ci SB-Ford, 425HP, RTR, $6800
Jegs, 427-ci SB-Ford Man O'War Street Engine, 450HP, RTR $8500
Jegs, SB-Ford Man O'War Street Engine 460cid, 575HP, RTR, $11,000

I'm thinking 550HP for $6400 looks like a decent deal. Like the man said earlier, carb, headers, wires $ plugs, pulleys, and incidentals... say another $1500. So probably $8000 running. If that's just not enough you add a supercharger for $3000 and hit 700HP.

So what's the likelyhood of matching the 550HP and beating the price in a junkyard?
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I suggest we solve high gas prices with environmentalists... unfortunately they don't burn well.
1977 F150 400 C6 2wd, 10.2 sec 1/8 mile with 2.75 gears.
1982 Mercedes 300CD, 220K miles
1965 Mustang. Mostly stock...
2001 Ram 2500, cummins, 5spd, 202k miles.(girlfriends)

Last edited by derherr65; 09-01-2006 at 12:09 AM.
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  #6  
Old 09-01-2006, 06:51 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by derherr65
The junkyard route sounds interesting. Very time consuming, and you'll have to really screen the parts carefully, but DIY engines have a certain appeal over bought engines. Will the stock parts handle that power though? I suspect the block will, but I'm a little concerned about the rotating assembly.
The first solution has a higher "wallet cost" and the second solution has a higher "manpower cost". If you were to pay yourself (virtually) an hourly wage of say, $50 an hour, both solutions would cost about the same, more or less.

So if you have $10K to put into this, crates of stuff might be a good solution for you - certainly it would be a faster solution in the sense that boxes of preassembled stuff shows up, and your "work" is simply making one assembly out of the stuff, and installing it into your truck.

My "cheap monkey" solution definately takes more work. Based on my available time, which is almost nil, my 500cid stroker is still unfinished. It's a tradeoff, a choice.

And not everyone has the interest (or aptitude) to put something as homemade as this together on their own, and that's fine, certainly no judgement passed. I have more aptitude than cash, so for me the "cheap monkey" solution is generally my first choice. I also enjoy doing this. I could have bought wiseco pistons for my 500cid stroker, but instead I got a set of free pistons in a trade with a friend for junk I didn't want, and I had to "skim" them a hair in the lathe so they have proper clearance. Free pistons with a nice dished top perfect for forced induction - zero cost - and I got rid of crap that my friend highly valued, that to me belonged at the curb on trash day. So everyone's happy. The rods I'm using are big block buick. Why? They're about the right length for this and are stout pieces. Also nearly free, again, trading stuff I don't want for stuff I do want. The only thing I am missing actually are the aluminum, EFI 460 bracketry. I unfortunately lost, or accidentally tossed that box so I have to recapture those parts. When the time comes to put on the accessories, if I don't have them, I'll simply take round stock and bore holes for the mounting bolts (making posts) and flat plate, weld it together, slot and drill for the accessories, and make the bracketry myself out of stuff sitting in my huge scrap bin. Again, zero wallet cost, but a huge investment in time to make sure everything is perfectly aligned so the serpentine belt doesn't rub incorrect and have a short lifespan.

As far as power goes, remember that the forces on the crank, rods, and wrist pins are squared for every 1000 RPM. So the higher the RPMs, the stronger the parts must be.

If you keep the rpms down, and make up the difference with boost, you can achieve the same power using ordinary, unloved, junkyard parts. My twin-turbo 500cid stroker I'm building, will never see 4500 RPM. But, based on the c/r and the turbo sizing, I'll have boost "just off" idle, and at 4250 RPM I should see about 30-35psi. And I'm buliding the engine specifically for this. Most machine shops hear that you want a 7:1 c/r and give you a really funny look .

But the end result should be around a grand in HP and torque, at a lower RPM than any racing engine. But also keep in mind what i'm building this for - a 7,000lb crewcab that essentially is a highway hauler. I do not race the truck. No quarter miles. No hill climbing. No offroading. "Off roading" for my 2wd crewcab is driving in the rain, snow and salt.

This is my second twin-turbo "cheap monkey" truck. The first one was a 1975 Dodge extended cab which I stroked a 400"B" block to 451 cid, and grafted GM EFI and a pair of turbos. If I popped the clutch, either the front tires would lift off the ground a little (more on one side than the other), or I'd litter the ground with metal scrap that flew out/off the transmission, driveshaft, differential, or real axle depending whether I had E rated tires or wider slicks.

Click the image to open in full size.

The key to using stock parts is to keep the RPMs down. One of the reasons why diesels last so many miles... they redline at what... 3000 RPM? There are other factors of course but where redline is makes a huge difference.

While RPM, C/R, gearing, and 200 other things all impact power levels and useful torque you can apply to the road surface, the bigger picture is how much air and fuel you can put into the engine over a period of time.
  • You can make the engine bigger (more air/fuel per hour)
    You can increase the RPMs (more air/fuel per hour)
    You can increase the boost above atmosphere (more air/fuel per hour)

If you race top fuel funny cars (or rails), you do all three. 500cid, 8000rpm redline, with wild amounts of boost from the blowers.

For street, you adjust all three to something more reasonable, therefore more reliable. I chose to go with bigger engine, lower RPMs down from stock, and go with more boost. Advantages and disadvantages of course but it's a set of tradeoffs, having done this once before, I'm perfectly okay with. The tradeoff being I'll need boost right off idle to have that big block feel, because the compression is deliberately lower than most would think is reasonable.

Right off idle (about 1200ish) I'll have boost so at that point, the 500cid will feel 500cid-ish. From 1500-4500, well, lets just say it will be more than a lot of fun to drive

Anyway, build or buy as you see fit, I've enjoyed this exchange and hope you have also. Like everything else, any particular approach or method has tradeoffs. Some you can live with, some you can't.
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Old 09-01-2006, 06:27 PM
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Smile I like this idea!

600 horsepower thats hilarious, and you can get that from junkyard parts. That number is really impressive, but honestly most people would be impressed with just a 20% increase in power and torque in the average truck on the average day. When I caught on to this idea of your back in Jan it caused me to sign on with you guys. I think mostly because I'm the kind of guy who swapped a 302 for a 429 cause it needed a new oil pump. Man what fun a prject like this must be. I dismissed that it would be something for me to consider on my truck until you said gas mileage. Now thats doubly intersting. One thing I like about my Fords is that in 25 years the gas mileage is still 10 even with EFI and one more gear. Now if I could get that up (17-20) and have only moderate power gains I'll be sendin you some pictures. Where can I get all the old info you posted and what not thru it's current state. My gun went off and I'm calling junkyard and starting calculations. Hot Dog!
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Old 09-01-2006, 08:57 PM
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I think 600hp (at the crank) can be quite streetable and reliable given the build-ups I've seen and read about. Mine is no trophy winner by any means, but the build is simple: stock longblock, bolt-ons and a power adder. Given the numbers my combo put down (on a load bearing chassis dyno that reads slightly lower than Mustang dyno) it's probably making just under 500hp at the crank. Street manners are great too; it idles and drives with stock-like characteristics, cold AC, power steering, windows, brakes locks and cruise control.
As far as reliability goes, that'll depending on tuning, no matter what type of build it is. One thing I can't calculate accurately is fuel mileage...i simply can't keep my foot out of the throttle.
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Old 09-11-2006, 10:52 PM
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I think a single turbo 6.8L V-10 modular would be sweet but I don't know how much fabrication you want to do. The parts aren't terribly expensive as far as forged rods and good pistons go. Crank is easily strong enough to support any power you can throw at it. Ford PCM's are easy to tune and you can have a high powered motor that will idle in traffic like a stocker. All the same things that work on the 4.6L and 5.4L engines as far as performance is concerned transfer over. You might be stuck on cam selection but the factory cams work very well with a turbo. I've been kicking around the idea of shoehorning a V-10 into my F-150 for sometime.
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Old 09-12-2006, 04:00 AM
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It would be easier to swap the V10 into the older, squarish body styles 96 and earlier, because of the shape of the hood and the large distance between the front of the engine and the radiator.

The 2K F150 that you have, slopes a bit, but eyeballing it I think it would still fit. You might have to use electric pusher fans on the radiator, and make minor changes like that.
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Old 09-12-2006, 11:27 AM
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I know they can stuff them into Mustangs and Crown Vics. Hood clearance isn't a problem and my puller e-fans would easily clear as they are.
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Old 09-12-2006, 11:27 AM
 
 
 
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