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Old 08-16-2006, 10:28 PM
FL450 FL450 is offline
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Bio-diesel


This thread is not meant as a flame but merely to pass on information on a conversation that I had with the service manager at one of our local Ford Truck dealers.


In the course of getting a lube job and an oil change, I overheard the subject of Bio-Diesel being discussed hot and heavy among the service writers and the truck shop manager.

After several phone calls to Ford Hdqrts in Dearborn and a lot of faxes back and forth, things seemed to settle down after about thirty minutes.

After the dust settled I spoke with the service manager and it all boiled down to running Bio-Diesel in the PSD 6.0 engine.
They had two trucks in the shop where both engines where trashed.
Ford refused to honor warranty on both and both had less than 75k on the engines.

The svc mgr didn't say what percent of Bio these guys were using or whether it was straight Bio only that the found a lot of evidence in the fuel filters. He didn't elaborate on what kind.

The service manager basically said, "Let your conscious be your guide, if you're running Bio, Ford will not warranty any damage that's caused by Bio - period".

When I asked why and what could possible caused damage to the engine, the reply was detergents or lack of and lubricants. apparently the Bio is causing premature injector failure.
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Old 08-16-2006, 10:36 PM
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Thanks, thats good to know. I've got a 7.3 and was thinking of going between a 5 and 20% blend. I've heard the owners manual says you can use up to a 5%. If they have changed this they should have to send everyone a notice covering what you just stated otherwise I woulld think some lawer will have them in court on a good case.
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Old 08-16-2006, 10:37 PM
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that is the biggest load of BS i think i've heard today. the Biodiesel has several times more lubricity than low-sulfur diesel. im not an expert on it, so i dont know about the detergents, but it does clean up the areas where fuel touches very well. there is less BTU's per gallon in a gallon of Biodiesel, opposed to #2. this means the mileage will suffer a tiny bit if any. i just filled up my truck with biodiesel and it came out to a mixture of b73.

in all truth biodiesel is alot better for the engines and injectors, it is just that ford doesnt want to hear this because they know it is better for the engines and that means less service work for them.

the engines were trashed due to something else. they found biodiesel and pointed their finger at that right away because ford only warrantied b5 or less.

i would be screaming "magnusson-moss" to my dealer if that was my truck. Click the image to open in full size.
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Old 08-16-2006, 10:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by strokin_it7.3
that is the biggest load of BS i think i've heard today. the Biodiesel has several times more lubricity than low-sulfur diesel. im not an expert on it, so i dont know about the detergents, but it does clean up the areas where fuel touches very well. there is less BTU's per gallon in a gallon of Biodiesel, opposed to #2. this means the mileage will suffer a tiny bit if any. i just filled up my truck with biodiesel and it came out to a mixture of b73.
Actually, we had to ground our fleet for 3 months because our fuel provider started using the Bio-diesel without telling us and ended up destroying 4 injection pumps. Ford wouldn't even honor the warranties because of it. It's a hit and miss deal with how certain companies mix the diesel. It was eventually fixed by going with another provider for the fuel, and haven't had a problem since. Don't know the names of the provider as that isn't handled by my shop.
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Old 08-16-2006, 10:58 PM
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what types of engines were affected by this?
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Old 08-17-2006, 08:18 AM
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6.0L Powerstrokes, I can tell you our first thought wasn't the fuel. It wasn't until the other 2 trucks came in 1 week after the first 2 that we began to think there was a problem beyond defect. 4 more trucks were called in to inspect, and found they had signs of abnormal wear already. We had the diesel anaylzed, and compared to another local source. Don't know the results, but it was enough the policy was changed, and all vehicles ended up being fueled downtown.

We even had problems with our GM vehicles when the diesel was swapped. Bad batch? Hard to say since the trucks ran on it for 3 months.
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Old 08-20-2006, 07:26 AM
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I'm with Strokin' on this one. Seems Ford will grab any excuse it can to get out of paying for ANOTHER 6.0L injector problem. Ford and International will definitely try to sleeze out of their responsibity for this problematic motor.
Once you start running bio it will blacken up the oil and change it's viscosity. B100 of course will excelerate the process. If the 6.0L's had effective bypass filtration to help clean the oil or it was changed shortly after a few tanks of B100 i'm willing to bet there would have been no problems other than the somewhat common 6.0 injector problems. Pitiful dealer BS here. There are many
users of bio diesel with no problems. I just did a poll on bio diesel usage and no one reported a problem with it.
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Old 08-20-2006, 10:48 AM
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The case/ih stand on their website basicly is this: B20 is OK for the IDI fuel systems. Other fuel systems only B5. This is a article from case highlights.

Check this site www.biodiesel.org look for buying the go to distributers. Look to see if your fuel supplier is listed. If not I would question where they got their biodiesel ( whether it has passed testing).
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Old 04-30-2008, 09:28 PM
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Talked to a diesel mechanic about 6.0 running on bio. He said one problem was the fuel tank will de-laminate. Any one ever hear this before?
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Old 05-01-2008, 01:12 AM
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I was very disappointed to hear this, as I have been just starting to read about the process of making biodiesel. What was said here so far is at least enough to make me sit up and take notice. I did a "Google" search of "International diesel biodiesel fuel" and came up with the following, a statement, undated, from International concerning the use of "biodiesel" in it's engines. I'm a little new here so if I do this right here is the address: http://www.internationaldelivers.com...df/dyk300i.pdf
And, again, if I do this right, here is it's contents:
DID YOU KNOW
. . . how to use bio-diesel fuel in International® engines? A new position paper issued by
International Engine Corporation Engineering describes what fuel blends are appropriate, emissions
benefits, operating guidelines, potential problems, etc. A copy of this paper is attached for you to share
with your customer who may be interested in using bio-diesel fuel.
Background
International Engine previously suggested a maximum blend of 5% Biodiesel blend stock to 95% diesel
fuel. Our position caused some concern from customers who had been using a 20% blend prior to that
letter. In order to qualify for DOE Energy Policy Act (or EPACT) alternative energy credits, a B20 (20%
blend stock, 80% diesel fuel) is typically required. Use of B20 Biodiesel can earn fleet energy credits,
in which one energy credit can be substituted for one light duty alternative fuel vehicle. The main
purpose of EPACT is to reduce foreign dependence on crude oil and to develop renewable sources of
energy. The ASTM has approved a provisional specification (PS 121-99), for 100% Biodiesel and the
full standard is expected to be finalized in the Spring 2001. Biodiesel has been registered with the
USEPA as a fuel and a fuel additive under section 211(b) of the Clean Air Act.
Position Statement
Many customers are concerned as to whether the International Engine warranty is voided by the use of
Biodiesel. International Truck and Engine Corporation neither approves nor disapproves of the use of
Biodiesel fuel in its engines. However, its warranty covers only problems resulting from defects in
engine material and/or workmanship and is not affected simply by the use of Biodiesel fuel.
Nonetheless, the warranty may be voided if an engine problem is attributable to the use of Biodiesel.
International engines have undergone rigorous testing under a variety of conditions with diesel fuels
conforming to USEPA guidelines. Biodiesel is not one of the fuels International has tested. Accordingly
any statement by International Truck and Engine Corporation about Biodiesel would be purely
speculative. In sum, the use of such fuel is totally at the customer’s discretion.
Biodiesel fuel knowns
The Biodiesel neat (100%) blend stock typically is a vegetable-based methyl ester (VOME), however
tallow methyl esters from animal fats have been suggested for use as well. Blend stocks conforming to
PS 121-99 appear to have good lubricity and cetane numbers. Several International customers are
currently using B20 biodiesel, reportedly with good success to date. Year round operation using B20 in
climates such as New Jersey and Florida have been reported as well. Biodiesel can be blended with 1D
fuel for winter operation. Published literature suggests most regulated emissions such as hydrocarbons,
carbon monoxide, and particulate mass tend to be reduced with the use of B20 Biodiesel fuel, while
NOx emissions may slightly increase. This may be due to higher oxygen levels in the B100 blend stock.
Diesel oxidation catalysts (DOC’s) may exhibit improved conversion efficiency with the use of Biodiesel,
however, the long term effect of Biodiesel with DOC’s is not yet understood. Potential problems with
the use of Biodiesel Fuel Based upon some of the published literature, stability of Biodiesel fuel is
questionable, thus it may have a propensity to degrade over time. B20 Biodiesel fuel degrades at a rate
twice as fast as 100% petroleum based diesel fuel. The degradation is accelerated by the presence of
oxygen, water, heat, and impurities. The degradation of the Biodiesel may form corrosive products like
acids, which may have a negative effect on fuel injection equipment. Of main concern are applications
which are not used regularly, such as stand-by generators or seasonally used equipment like
agricultural implements. Fuel degradation can also result in microbial growth (algae and bacteria) in fuel
storage tanks, and can then sludge up fuel injection equipment. Filter plugging and sediment in the fuel
injection equipment can also occur.
Other potential problems include:
• Chemical reaction of methyl ester with some elastomers, which can cause fuel leaks at o-rings and seals.
• Coking and blocking of fuel injector orifices, causing poor atomization of fuel.
• Increased viscosity, causing poor cold temperature fuel flow characteristics, and poor fuel spray
atomization. Rotary fuel injection pumps could potentially seize if fuel viscosity was exceptionally high
(B100). Cloud point temperature tends to be higher. B20 flow properties will increase approximately 5° F
as compared to 100% petroleum based fuel.
• Abrasive solids from processing can cause fuel system wear.
• Potential for slight reduction in power and fuel economy due to lower energy content per mass unit of
B100. This would probably be invisible to the user of B20.
Suggested Guidelines
For increased chances of success, customers who wish to use Biodiesel in International
Engines should: Use high quality Biodiesel blend stock which conforms to ASTM PS 121-99
Use high quality diesel fuel that meets ASTM guidelines (D975) at minimum. The Engine Manufacturers
Association has a premium diesel fuel specification (FQP-1A) which is designed for improved winter
performance and lubricity. The minimum cetane number should be 45.
Maximum blend guidelines: 20% B100 blend stock to 80% petroleum based diesel fuel by volume.
Ensure complete mixing.
Avoid long term storage of Biodiesel fuel to prevent degradation. Treat storage tanks for water regularly,
and for microbial growth as well. B100 in water degrades 85-88% in 28 days, approximately the same
rate as for Dextrose (a test sugar used as the positive control when testing biodegradability).
Avoid prolonged periods of engine idling whenever possible. This not only wastes fuel, but also could
promote engine deposits due to low engine operating temperatures.
When operating in winter climates, use winter blended diesel fuel. If Biodiesel is still to be used in
winter months, make sure that the cloud point is adequate. Fuel heaters may improve performance.
Perform regularly scheduled maintenance as dictated by the engine operation and maintenance manual.
At this point in time, there is no evidence to suggest decreased maintenance intervals when using a
good quality B20.
These recommendations on use of Biodiesel in International Engines are not provided to extend or
supplant warranty limitation noted earlier. Again, use of Biodiesel in International engines is noted solely
at the discretion and risk of the customer.
Scott Peterson – Application Engineer, Engine Group scott.peterson@nav-international.com
References
1) SAE Off-Highway Engineering Dec 2000 pp 14-17 The Biodiesel Choice.
2) ASTM PS 121-99 Provisional specification for Biodiesel Fuel (B100) Blend Stock for Distillate fuels
3) SAE 95-0054 Emissions and Performance Characteristics of a 4 stroke Direct injected diesel
engine fueled with blends of Biodiesel and low sulfur diesel fuel.
M.L. Poulton 1994 Alternative Fuels for Road Vehicles
Joint FIE Manufacturers Statement, June 2000, Fatty Acid Methyl Ester Fuels as a Replacement or
Extender for Diesel fuels.

Sorry for the long post, but I thought it important that those of us contemplating making and/or using our own diesel fuel at this difficult time be as informed as possible. Nobody would like this to be "doable' more than I!
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Old 05-01-2008, 01:18 AM
2003 EXCURSION 2003 EXCURSION is offline
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Last thought: Sadly, many of us who are most enthusiastically looking into using and/or making biodiesel fuel are doing so because we are so affected by the current market price. But we are also exactly the ones who cannot afford to ruin a $10,000.00 engine. We must be careful! Don't give up, just more research is needed. Thanks all!
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Old 05-01-2008, 11:49 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2003 EXCURSION View Post
Last thought: Sadly, many of us who are most enthusiastically looking into using and/or making biodiesel fuel are doing so because we are so affected by the current market price. But we are also exactly the ones who cannot afford to ruin a $10,000.00 engine. We must be careful! Don't give up, just more research is needed. Thanks all!
Looks like your looking for an excuse to do nothing...
what if your option was to make your own or not drive!
Certainly the establishment does not want you to change...
it obviosly makes more sence practiseing on an older
vehicle ( old mercedes or a IDI) . You might find a local
individual or group that is already in production if all you
want to do is kibbetz..
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Old 05-01-2008, 02:31 PM
2003 EXCURSION 2003 EXCURSION is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lowell75 View Post
Looks like your looking for an excuse to do nothing...
what if your option was to make your own or not drive!
Certainly the establishment does not want you to change...
it obviosly makes more sence practiseing on an older
vehicle ( old mercedes or a IDI) . You might find a local
individual or group that is already in production if all you
want to do is kibbetz..
Geez, you're not skeptical, are you! Actually, my intent was quite the opposite. I actually have a total of 25 sights saved on my computer that have to do with either making, using, or buying biodiesel. I have been quite actively, and enthusiastically, reading up on the the methodology of making it, using it, and storing it. I even know where to get the used oil within 5 minutes of me to make it. I don't have a lot of extra money though, and the Excursion that I drive has a lot of payments left on it and is intended to be our family vacation vehicle for many years to come, so I can't take a lot of chances with it. It is also the only (and first) diesel vehicle that I own, in other words I don't have an "older vehicle" to experiment with. Even if I did, and the stuff was fine in the "old Mercedes", does that mean it will be just as fine in my 6.0? And how many miles would I have to have driven it to know that there is no damage occurring? On the other hand, maybe we are to discover that the problems with biodiesel (if there are any!) only occur when it is more than 30 days old, or that perhaps we will discover that we can use some additive in it that reduces the acidity of it, and that with this it is always safe.
I haven't given up on starting to "make my own" and nothing would bring me more joy than to lift the ol middle finger to both the oil company's and the tax men, but I can't afford major damage to my engine, so forgive me if I'm a bit cautious. On the other hand, and a bit closer to my true intent here, is the fact that this website has some great minds that follow it and are well read and experienced on subjects such as this, and I've found that sometimes the best way to get to the truth in a dilemma such as this, is to "put it out there" and see what others thoughts are, after all I know from my reading here that there are some on here that have gone 40,000 miles and more on b100. And I was hoping more for either solutions, or debunking of myths than someone to jump on me and accuse me in essence of "giving up". We are after the same end result, so could we keep it positive and not personal! Thanks!
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Old 05-01-2008, 04:10 PM
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You don't have to search very far on these diesel forums to
see what some of the bites the PSD owners have had! My
87'E350 6.9 has been in the stable for 15 years and is
pretty cheap to keep ...so I will. Technical info is available
here and cheap parts at the jy for one to play around with.
I've got two old mercedes 300ds with new engines for
daily drivers: about 30mpg on not too finiky diet. They are
all candidates for non dino juice!!

Being long on guzzlers at this point in time is probably
less painful now than it will become!!
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Old 05-04-2008, 09:16 PM
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I'm not sure what to do but we just got a load in of b20 , we run everything from cat to cummins , talked to different people and the supplier about it and have'nt heard of any problems. Have been running everything low on fuel so as not to dilute the mix . Then got to thinking about my 6.0 ???? It's an 03 and the only thing I could kick myself about is taking it in on a recall to reflash for the best thing ford could come up with , went from 17.5 miles to the gallon to 13.5 , plus lost the downshift in tow mode in 2nd to low , plus loss of power , so someone tell me how you can use more fuel and less power is better for the enviroment !!! Now after reading what you guys have to say about bio fuel , I don't know whether to chance it or not , crystal flash is our supplier , don't know if you guys know any thing about these guys but they say they've got a special way they blend it - what ever that means, any imput would be appreciated.
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