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  #1  
Old 07-19-2006, 10:00 PM
RDC F250 7.3 RDC F250 7.3 is offline
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BioDiesel 101 - I need Help!!

Whats the largest size I can ( should) mix at one time? I would like to mix 100 gallons at a time. And is there a true kit that I can buy or Plans that I can follow to make my own bioplant?

Bobby
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  #2  
Old 07-19-2006, 10:51 PM
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Originally Posted by RDC F250 7.3
Whats the largest size I can ( should) mix at one time? I would like to mix 100 gallons at a time. And is there a true kit that I can buy or Plans that I can follow to make my own bioplant?

Bobby
I make 50 gal at a time. The plant we're building in Idaho will produce 500 gal batches.

For info on kits and plans try here: http://biodieselcommunity.org

FABMANDELUX.
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Old 07-21-2006, 10:05 PM
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I'm building a plant to do 25 gallon batches of vegetable oil. 30 gallon drum to store up the oil, 55 gallon drum to mix 25 gallons oil with 5 gallons methanol. After mixing and draining the glycerin, I'll pump to a another 55 gallon for washing. Prior to washing I plan on heating up the reactor to about 140 and driving off the methanol. The point being the less free alcohol the better for rubber elements in the fuel system. So methanol recovery and washing is a good idea for Fords. Then use blended up to 50% with petro diesel, making B50. Ford only recommends B5, but B20 to B50 is ok. Also if you have a two tank system run B50 in one tank and petro diesel in the other. Switch to the petro diesel before shut down on the home stretch. This will flush out your pump and injectors so they don't bathe in the biodiesel which can be hard on rubber seals.

Big Blue
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  #4  
Old 07-22-2006, 07:05 AM
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Originally Posted by BigBlue2
I'm building a plant to do 25 gallon batches of vegetable oil. 30 gallon drum to store up the oil, 55 gallon drum to mix 25 gallons oil with 5 gallons methanol. After mixing and draining the glycerin, I'll pump to a another 55 gallon for washing. Prior to washing I plan on heating up the reactor to about 140 and driving off the methanol. The point being the less free alcohol the better for rubber elements in the fuel system. So methanol recovery and washing is a good idea for Fords. Then use blended up to 50% with petro diesel, making B50. Ford only recommends B5, but B20 to B50 is ok. Also if you have a two tank system run B50 in one tank and petro diesel in the other. Switch to the petro diesel before shut down on the home stretch. This will flush out your pump and injectors so they don't bathe in the biodiesel which can be hard on rubber seals.

Big Blue
140 deg is not high enough to evaporate Methanol. Methanol STARTS to evap at 149.5 deg F. I've been recovering Methanol from my glycerol for almost 3 years now, and I have to raise the temp to 190 deg to get it all out.

The plant we're building in Idaho will use a tank heated to 150 deg with 10" of vacuume and will remove the Methanol from 1,500 gal of biodiesel in under 30 min.

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Old 07-22-2006, 12:58 PM
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Yes...sorry...closer to 150 degrees is needed.

1500 gallons! Holy cow...that's a huge processor, I'm impressed! You must be making B100 for sale? I'm just trying to be a home brewer in the garage. I'm almost ready to build a batch. I have a few more things to put together.

I was thinking of recovering methanol directly from the reactor. After the reaction is completed, say after an hour of mixing, I'm thinking of raising the temperature at the end to say 150 to drive off the excess methanol. This would be done with the mixing pump still running and before the settling of the glycerin. What do you think?

BB2
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Old 07-22-2006, 04:38 PM
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Originally Posted by BigBlue2
Yes...sorry...closer to 150 degrees is needed.

1500 gallons! Holy cow...that's a huge processor, I'm impressed! You must be making B100 for sale? I'm just trying to be a home brewer in the garage. I'm almost ready to build a batch. I have a few more things to put together.

I was thinking of recovering methanol directly from the reactor. After the reaction is completed, say after an hour of mixing, I'm thinking of raising the temperature at the end to say 150 to drive off the excess methanol. This would be done with the mixing pump still running and before the settling of the glycerin. What do you think?

BB2

In a word.....no! If you try and recover the Methanol BEFORE you drain the glycerol you will REVERSE THE REACTION!

By removing the methanol first the glycerin will recombine with the esters and turn back to oil, not a good thing. You MUST make sure you have as much of the glycerol removed as you can before removing the Methanol.

FABMANDELUX.
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Old 07-23-2006, 01:13 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fabmandelux
In a word.....no! If you try and recover the Methanol BEFORE you drain the glycerol you will REVERSE THE REACTION!

By removing the methanol first the glycerin will recombine with the esters and turn back to oil, not a good thing. You MUST make sure you have as much of the glycerol removed as you can before removing the Methanol.

FABMANDELUX.
Check! I will drain off the glycerin first, then drive off excess methanol through my condensor to the methanol recovery vessel. I was hoping the esters would be stable under additional heat after combining with the alcohol. But if the reaction is reversible then I better drain first. Too bad, cause I will have to use extra energy to heat up the batch after settling lets it cool down.

After that I'm planning on washing my biodiesel by the pump mixing method. What method do you use and why?

Sorry for so many questions, but I'm really close to making my first batch and I do not have any mentors. Just a few books and the internet.

Thanks
BB2
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  #8  
Old 07-23-2006, 03:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBlue2
I'm building a plant to do 25 gallon batches of vegetable oil. 30 gallon drum to store up the oil, 55 gallon drum to mix 25 gallons oil with 5 gallons methanol. After mixing and draining the glycerin, I'll pump to a another 55 gallon for washing. Prior to washing I plan on heating up the reactor to about 140 and driving off the methanol. The point being the less free alcohol the better for rubber elements in the fuel system. So methanol recovery and washing is a good idea for Fords. Then use blended up to 50% with petro diesel, making B50. Ford only recommends B5, but B20 to B50 is ok. Also if you have a two tank system run B50 in one tank and petro diesel in the other. Switch to the petro diesel before shut down on the home stretch. This will flush out your pump and injectors so they don't bathe in the biodiesel which can be hard on rubber seals.

Big Blue

Your preaching to the Choir. You dont have to switch for bio..your mistaking veggie oil use.
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Old 07-23-2006, 08:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBlue2
Check! I will drain off the glycerin first, then drive off excess methanol through my condensor to the methanol recovery vessel. I was hoping the esters would be stable under additional heat after combining with the alcohol. But if the reaction is reversible then I better drain first. Too bad, cause I will have to use extra energy to heat up the batch after settling lets it cool down.

After that I'm planning on washing my biodiesel by the pump mixing method. What method do you use and why?

Sorry for so many questions, but I'm really close to making my first batch and I do not have any mentors. Just a few books and the internet.

Thanks
BB2
I do not water-wash my bio, I know, I know.........EVERYBODY washes their bio. I let mine settle for 30 days, which lets any soap,Lye, etc, settle out. The Methanol will evaporate out in about 30 days also.

I just don't belive adding water to any diesel is a good idea. The plant I'm building in Idaho will use Magnesol, and I'm switching over to Magnesol in my operation also.

If you use water-wash you should use 30 percent water a min of 3 times, plus you have to heat it up to drive off the excess water. So for every 100 gallons of Biodiesel you make you will produce 90 gallons of waste water.........what do you do with that? Pour it down the drain? Dump it on the ground? Not something I want to do.................

If you want more info on Magnesol try here:

http://www.fryerpower.com/store/page1.html

FABMANDELUX.
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  #10  
Old 07-23-2006, 12:13 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kennedyford

Your preaching to the Choir. You dont have to switch for bio..your mistaking veggie oil use.
Yes, that is the method for veggie oil, SVO, too. In this case we're talking about the damage that bio can do to rubber o-rings in your injectors and injector pump. Switching back to petrol diesel eliminates the bathing over night in the bio.
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Old 07-23-2006, 05:35 PM
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Your refering to older vehicles and such and a few dollars on modern replacements will take care of that need. As for a mentor, Fabman is mine as well as Phxudullwhatever he spells it for chemical info. Read on and enjoy, I drive a newer truck without having to worry about the oring and rubber.
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Old 07-23-2006, 06:46 PM
BigBlue2 BigBlue2 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kennedyford
Your refering to older vehicles and such and a few dollars on modern replacements will take care of that need. As for a mentor, Fabman is mine as well as Phxudullwhatever he spells it for chemical info. Read on and enjoy, I drive a newer truck without having to worry about the oring and rubber.
I'm talking about 6.9 and 7.3l Ford diesels made by International. Do a search on Ford and biodiesel and you'll find Ford's oficial position on Biodiesel says no more than 5% bio. They say the rubber orings in the injectors and the injector pump could be damaged. Now that doesn't mean that one could find all the equivalent orings made from Viton and build an injector pump and replace the rubber Orings in the injectors with Viton ones too. I don't know of anyone providing an injector pump made especially for biodiesel for the 6.9 or 7.3, but If I'm wrong about that I'm sure you'll correct me. I had this same discussion with my mechanic and he says it might be hard to find the right sizes of orings to replace them. If you know of a biodiesel compatible fuel system components for Ford 6.9l let me know. I'm running a 6.9 in my 86 Ford SC 4WD F-250.

Thanks,
BB2
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Old 07-24-2006, 03:15 PM
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Im glad I read the whole posting before I passed any judgement. I understand what you mean as far as the Viton replacements. I recall someone running into that same problem on this forum and listing what they did to upgrade and keep parts from dissenegrating. I will do a lil research here and there and see if we cant get you answer and part numbers for replacements. As far as I can recall its just a replacement upgrades for the fuel system lines and any orings that may come in contact. Now this next statement is rhetorical , are the orings today regardless of application made of the newer material? Next, I dont care what ford says, they are just protecting themselves from liabilities with the 5 percent statement. Do you have any of the manuals on your year engine? If not pm Monsterbaby and maybe he can get you schematics of the fuel system lines and orings that come in contact. Fords exploded view of those areas show the correct dimensions of all orings and hoses. Then its just a mater of calling the aircompressor and ac shops and anyone else dealing with oring so you can just pop a injector and put on a few orings.
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Old 07-24-2006, 04:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BigBlue2
I was thinking of recovering methanol directly from the reactor. After the reaction is completed, say after an hour of mixing, I'm thinking of raising the temperature at the end to say 150 to drive off the excess methanol. This would be done with the mixing pump still running and before the settling of the glycerin. What do you think? BB2
Absolutely not a good idea. Like Fab said you will drive the reaction backward.


Here is an interesting point that takes advantage of a similar concept.

If you draw glycerol off during the reacion process and add more methoxide you will actually drive the reaction in a favorable direction and increase yield plus reduce the probability of making soap
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Old 07-28-2006, 08:31 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fabmandelux
I do not water-wash my bio, I know, I know.........EVERYBODY washes their bio. I let mine settle for 30 days, which lets any soap,Lye, etc, settle out. The Methanol will evaporate out in about 30 days also.

I just don't belive adding water to any diesel is a good idea. The plant I'm building in Idaho will use Magnesol, and I'm switching over to Magnesol in my operation also.

If you use water-wash you should use 30 percent water a min of 3 times, plus you have to heat it up to drive off the excess water. So for every 100 gallons of Biodiesel you make you will produce 90 gallons of waste water.........what do you do with that? Pour it down the drain? Dump it on the ground? Not something I want to do.................

If you want more info on Magnesol try here:

http://www.fryerpower.com/store/page1.html

FABMANDELUX.

FabMan, i see the hassle of washing and the subsequent waste water.
If you are gravity settling your fuel for 30 days how are you disposing of the settled part?
Do i need a special vented holding tank for that 30 days?

TIA
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Old 07-28-2006, 08:31 AM
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