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  #1  
Old 07-14-2006, 12:40 PM
pullonthis21 pullonthis21 is offline
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MEK instead of methanol

Can I use Methyl Ethyl Ketone instead of methanol just brainstorming thanks
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Old 07-14-2006, 02:01 PM
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No the chemistry is not right
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Old 07-14-2006, 10:03 PM
pullonthis21 pullonthis21 is offline
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thanks Phydeaux88 i just thought they may be something there to think about. I have a sourse for MEK and thought that maybe there was someway that it would work. i think i will try to mix VO with MEK just to see what happens.
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  #4  
Old 07-15-2006, 08:43 PM
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Prolly not a good idea.
MEK is a solvent and has no lubricity, not good for a diesel.
MEK is very volatle it has a flash point of -9 C you would be better off putting gasoline in your diesel. We all know what that will do.
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Old 07-15-2006, 09:09 PM
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Not only that MEK makes methonal look like koolaid when it comes to it's toxicity that is some dangerous stuff to play with.
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Old 07-16-2006, 09:25 PM
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I haven't even seen any real MEK since the Air Force quit using it 15 or so years ago.
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Old 07-16-2006, 11:07 PM
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Nah we had mek a few years ago, but havent bought any since...that is bad nasty stuff.
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Old 07-17-2006, 08:59 PM
pullonthis21 pullonthis21 is offline
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thanks for the scare guys i work with this junk everyday. well i did mix 4 parts VO with 1 part MEK at room temp let set 24 hours notice no separation washed it with 2 parts water notice that that it got most of the MEK out of the VO. somebody tell me why this wont work. i don't have the time or equipment to make a test batch. flash point of Methanol is 11 deg C 20 deg difference. seems to me you could make Bio with alot less MEK than it takes with Methanol and cutting the cost.
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Old 07-18-2006, 02:39 AM
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OK Pullonthis You asked for it here is some basic Organic Chemistry

I would have to be able to draw pictures here to show you what I am talking about but I cant so words will have to suffice

First some definitions

1. carbon - a basic element, each carbon atom is capable of bonding to other atoms at four different sites and so may bond to four other atoms.

2. Hydrocarbon - a carbon hydrogen molecule, the simplest is a single carbon atom with all four bond sites occupuied with hydrogen atoms the chemical formula is CH4 it is called methane. Carbon atoms also bond to other carbon atoms, if you stick 2 carbons together then fill the remaining bond sites with hydrogen you have C2H6 called ethane. These carbon chains can get quite long for example gasoline is a mixture of molecules having 5 to 12 carbon atoms and diesel is a mix of 10 to 15 carbon atoms. For simplicity a hydrocarbon chain is often represented as R in a formula where it appears R indicates a hydrocarbon chain of non specific length

3. Alcohol - a hydrocarbon in which on or more hydrogens has been replaced with a hydroxyl group (an oxygen hydrogen combination represented as OH. The simplest alcohol is a single carbon bonded to 3 hydrogens and a hydroxyl chemical formula is CH3OH called methanol. A two carbon alcohol is CH3-CH2OH called ethanol. An alcohol of non specific length may be represented as ROH.

4. Glycerol - a 3 carbon chain with a hydroxyl replacing one of the hydrogens on each carbon so uit is a triple alcohol chemical formula CH2OH-CHOH-CH2OH

OOOOPs didnt mean to dooze off there lets press on

5. Carboxylic Acid - a hydrocarbon in which the carbon on one end has had all of the usual 3 hydrogens replaced two of the hydrogens are replaced by a single oxygen (called double bonding) and the last hydrogen is replaced by a hydroxyl group. This carbon with a double bonded oxygen and a hydroxyl group is called a carboxyl group and is represented as C(O)OH, the O in parens is the double bonded oxygen. A carboxylic acid of non specific length is represented as R-C(O)OH.

6. Ester - the result of reacting an alcohol ROH with a Carboxylic acid R'-C(O)OH **note the ' mark is simply used to help identify second hydrocarbon chain involved in this reaction. In the reaction the hydroxyl in the alcohol is split off and the H from the hydroxyl in the carboxylic acid is split off. The split off H and OH unite to form H2O (water) and the R from the alcohol is attached to the carboxyl group where the H was split off giving the ester R'-C(O)O-R.

7. Ketone - a hydrocarbon chain in which one of the carbons in the middle of the chain has had the usual two hydrogens replaced by a double bonded oxygen.
the carbon with double bonded oxygen is called a carbonyl group. the chemical formula for a ketone with unspecified length carbon chain sections on either side of the carbonyl group is R-C(O)-R'. Ketones are named by naming the carbon chain sections on either side of the carbonyl. Thus Methy Ethyl Ketone is a carbonyl with a one carbon lon chain on one side and a two carbon long chain on the other or CH3-C(O)-C2H5

Almost done if you are not asleep read on

Veg Oil is a triple ester, remember the triple alcohol glycerol, well each of the hydroxyl groups has reacted with a carboxylic acid to produce the molecule
CH2C(O)OR-CHC(O)OR'-CH2C(O)OR".

The process of converting Veg Oil to BioDiesel is called transesterification methanol CH3OH is used to replace the glycerol at each of the ester bonds yielding the original triple alcohol glycerol CH2OH-CHOH-CH2OH and the single esters CH3-C(O)-R, CH3-C(O)-R', and CH3-C(O)-R". Glycerol is a waste product and the single esters are BioDiesel.

Since MEK is a Ketone and has a carbonyl group not a carboxyl group it cannot participate in the formation of an ester thus it cannot be used to replace methanol in transesterification reactions.

Thats the best I can do under the circumstances.
Unless you want to get into Quantum Mechanics, not recommended cause it will take several pages on this forum, you're gonna have to trust me the chemistry is not right.
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Last edited by Phydeaux88; 07-18-2006 at 03:01 AM.
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Old 07-18-2006, 07:19 AM
94_turbo 94_turbo is offline
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and you think meth is dangerous--when i worked at a certain factory--the safety rep said they were going to stop using mek for certain paint cleaning operations--said why--he said mek in its pure from would penetrate 6 inchs of concrete in 2 minutes--and absorbs faster in your skin, then the tetraethyl lead in gasoline would--they also used this to strip red loctite off the axle housings when needing repair!!!!!!
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Old 07-18-2006, 12:21 PM
pullonthis21 pullonthis21 is offline
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thanks phydeaux88 know thats an answer!

Quote.
Since MEK is a Ketone and has a carbonyl group not a carboxyl group it cannot participate in the formation of an ester thus it cannot be used to replace methanol in transesterification reactions.


so are you saying it WILLNOT participate in the formation of an ester or are you saying it cannot participate in the formation of an ester and achieve the product biodiesel. or both?
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  #12  
Old 07-18-2006, 01:26 PM
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It cannot form an ester bond because the second R chain must bond to a single bonded oxygen. The only oxygen available in a ketone is the double bonded carbonyl oxygen.

Oxygen is only capable of forming two bonds, unlike carbon which can form four.

I really wish I could draw you a picture it would be much easier
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Last edited by Phydeaux88; 07-18-2006 at 01:31 PM.
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  #13  
Old 07-18-2006, 08:02 PM
pullonthis21 pullonthis21 is offline
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ok MEK cannot work because of double bonded carbonyl oxygen. case closed.


maybe someday i can take course on chemistry this stuff is pretty cool.

thank you
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Old 07-18-2006, 08:02 PM
 
 
 
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