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Old 07-12-2006, 11:46 AM
MILLHOUSEB MILLHOUSEB is offline
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e85 flex fuel??

Would I damage my engine if I were to use e85 flex fuel in a stock '79 351m? With unleaded gas over $3.00 a gallon & e85 over .50 cents cheaper it would be worth some hassel. Is it possible?
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Old 07-12-2006, 12:14 PM
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The carb is the issue here, as it would need to be rejetted to run right. The lower compression also is an issue, as it won't be as effective to run on E85, as it likes higher compression to capitalize on it's higher octane. To run it on a low compression motor like that, you would loose fuel efficiency, so it wouldn't be as beneficial to run, as you would need more of it. It is possible, but you need to do some work and homework before trying it. Anything natural rubber would also have to be replaced.
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Old 07-12-2006, 01:44 PM
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More info:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E85
http://www.answers.com/topic/e85
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Old 07-12-2006, 02:53 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MILLHOUSEB
With unleaded gas over $3.00 a gallon & e85 over .50 cents cheaper it would be worth some hassel. Is it possible?
You won't get the same MPG out of the E85, so that $0.50 differential isn't a very big one if at all. Although gas prices may rise more making ethanol more viable, it's just another factor to consider before making a switch on your car for monetary reasons.

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Old 07-12-2006, 04:53 PM
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I have a 03 Explorer which is E85 compatible and it runs about the same but the gas mileage is horrible. I had taken an 8 hour trip just recently and checked my gas mileage and found out to be 11-12 MPG with E85 and 18-20 with unleaded Gasoline. I had to fill out an extra time. I really didn't save hardly anything on money when I did the math. The short run, 50 cents can save you quite a bit of money, but with longer trips, it don't save you much at all. More of a Pain, trying to find stations that sell E85.
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Old 07-17-2006, 06:28 AM
Dave Severson Dave Severson is offline
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I'm not so much concerned about the little bit of savings on E-85 as much as I'm concerned about seeing my money stay in the US and not go to some Mid East oil producer who allready has way too much money anyway!!!!! I also have a difficult time understanding all the "buy American" crap when it comes to buying a new vehicle, but then it's ok to export all our gas cash to the Mid East. Seems to be some kind of double standard........ Japan has not attacked the US since 1941, the same can not be said for some of the Mid East oil producers.....
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Old 07-17-2006, 07:17 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fellro86
The lower compression also is an issue, as it won't be as effective to run on E85, as it likes higher compression to capitalize on it's higher octane.

I think the proper way to say that would be:

"to get similar power output, E85 requires higher compression to compensate for it's lower energy content."
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Old 07-17-2006, 03:36 PM
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Power isn't the issue, but efficiency is.You will get similar performance, it just won't quite do it on the same nickel unless you bump up the compression. You can run spark timing more advanced with the E85, but it won't give quite the same mpg.
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Old 07-18-2006, 05:50 AM
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Either way. It's an inferior product being sold at a higher price by the time you count the subsidies. I seriously doubt it will ever really be a better alternative to gasoline. But only time will tell.
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Old 07-18-2006, 09:18 AM
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While the USA did import most of its oil from Saudia Arabia 10 years ago, it has now taken second place to Canada according to ABC. Canada also has never declared war on the USA if that's any consolation.

While it would be nice for the USA to be energy self-sufficient, it just uses so much energy that this is not a realistic goal. Ethanol does not have the energy content of gasoline and higher compression and timing cannot compensate for the difference. Only a much lower price can make ethanol economically viable and the technology for this has not yet matured. I think a higher demand for this fuel will slowly drive down its production costs but it'll probably take several years for its price to be competive with gasoline.

Last edited by fraso; 07-18-2006 at 09:22 AM.
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Old 07-18-2006, 12:16 PM
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Fraso, you are correct. I just checked the commodity price for fuel ethanol today and it's at $3.2114/gallon in a 33,000 gallon quantity (approx 1 railroad tank car. Read the volume, wholesale price. Individual prices will be higher).

Currently a gallon of gasoline in my neighborhood is $2.81. Untill ethanol can beat that price (WITHOUT SUBSIDY) by enough that my total fuel expenditure in $ per week doesn't change or goes down, I'm not interested.
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Old 07-18-2006, 12:34 PM
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Right now isn't a good comparison for price, as the demand is extremely high due to the MTBE fiasco, they switched to ethanol to replace it, so all of a sudden, there is very high demand with not high enough production rates. If you look at the price of it a year ago and compare it to gasoline, it would tell a different story.
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Old 07-18-2006, 01:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fraso
While the USA did import most of its oil from Saudia Arabia 10 years ago, it has now taken second place to Canada according to ABC. Canada also has never declared war on the USA if that's any consolation.
Neither did Saud Arabia. But wait, weren't there canadian troops there in 1814 when the White House was burned down? But I guess you can blame that on England, which could be the country that declared the most war on the US...

Quote:
Only a much lower price can make ethanol economically viable
Or a much higher gasoline price.

Quote:
and the technology for this has not yet matured. I think a higher demand for this fuel will slowly drive down its production costs but it'll probably take several years for its price to be competive with gasoline.
We'll see. Problem is that gasoline prices also depend a lot on politics, and there's lots of speculation on crude, so even though there's enough oil, the price is higher than what should be based on supply, demand, and production and transportation costs.
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Old 07-18-2006, 09:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fellro86
Right now isn't a good comparison for price, as the demand is extremely high due to the MTBE fiasco, they switched to ethanol to replace it, so all of a sudden, there is very high demand with not high enough production rates. If you look at the price of it a year ago and compare it to gasoline, it would tell a different story.
You might want to re-read what you wrote and think about it. Now is the PERFECT time to do this comparison. As you stated, the widespread demand for it is to replace MTBE. That constitutes what? Maybe 10% of the volume of a gallon of gas? Not much use there compared to total gas demand. And then we are also introducing E-85 in small quantities in limited areas. And with just that small percentage of total demand, the WHOLESALE price of a gallon of ethanol is higher than the RETAIL (+ tax) price of a gallon of gasoline.

I understand that increased production will tend to drive the price of ethanol down. But at current prices the increased production has to cut the ethanol price by approx 50% to make ethanol viable by the time you account for taxes and decreased mileage. I don't see that happening. OR the price of a gallon of gas has to double while the price of ethanol has to remain constant. Since production and distribution of ethanol is driven primarily by petrol products, I don't see ethanol price remaining stable if the price of oil increases.

Again, I see this as an inferior product being forced on the public by slick marketing and government.
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Old 07-18-2006, 11:17 PM
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The product is only inferior when used with equipment optimized for the existing fuels. Design engines specifically to maximize performance and economy on E85 and most if not all of the inferior aspects will be greatly reduced or they may even disappear. Then on those engines, we might be saying that gasoline is the inferior product...

Just a different perspective. Right now, ethanol isn't an economically viable solution, but it could be one day down the road.
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Old 07-18-2006, 11:17 PM
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