Where does Ford stand on the use of Biodiesel?
#1
09-10-2002, 06:41 AM
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Where does Ford stand on the use of Biodiesel?
I can't wait to get my excursion and switch it to Biodiesel. To see the look on the environmentalist's faces when I come rolling up in the diesel truck and smell of french fries in the air. Wonder what they will comeup with next? Youre hogging all the biodiesel probably
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09-10-2002, 09:29 PM
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09-10-2002, 10:27 PM
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Where does Ford stand on the use of Biodiesel?
no experience with it, but this is what i have read:
1)biodiesel is hard on injector pumps
2)lye is used to make bio diesel, that too is hard on pumps if it is not removed or used up in the processing of the oil.
3) newer diesels with electronic injection will work better on biodeisel than a mechanical pump injector, less moving parts to get fouled by the biodiesel.
just what have I read, hope it helps a little,
Nate
1)biodiesel is hard on injector pumps
2)lye is used to make bio diesel, that too is hard on pumps if it is not removed or used up in the processing of the oil.
3) newer diesels with electronic injection will work better on biodeisel than a mechanical pump injector, less moving parts to get fouled by the biodiesel.
just what have I read, hope it helps a little,
Nate
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09-17-2002, 04:13 AM
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Where does Ford stand on the use of Biodiesel?
They *recommend* not using it, but they can't void your warranty for using it. They also *recommend* only using genuine Motorcraft oil and filters. I contacted Ford and Navistar regarding this issue, and while they did not specifically recommend using biodiesel (as the owner's manual says), they did not say that it could not be used either.
Ford says: "Ford Motor Company does not recommend modifications to your vehicle. We strongly recommend discussing this modification with the Service Department of your local Ford dealership before initiating this procedure." That's their general reply to everything non-Ford.
International (Navistar) says: "The use of products such as biodiesel is at the discretion of the end-user.... The International engine warranty... is not affected simply by the use of biodiesel regardless of the product's origin."
As with oil, filters and other consumables, manufacturers don't warranty the fuel, only their products. So if your fuel (or oil or filter) doesn't damage the engine, then you're fine.
Modern biodiesel is a high tech clean burning fuel, but I think that many people have the notion that it's just dirty french-fry oil that someone has run through a filter. Bio is pure and clean, and has better lubricity than diesel and is good not only for the engine but also other parts like injection pumps. Of course, Powerstrokes don't have injection pumps. The lye used in manufacturing is only used as a catalyst, and is not present in the final product.
There's a local supplier of bio-diesel here, and he's says that everyone runs it with no problems, including lots of newer Ford PSDs. I think he even said that he has PSDs in his fleet. He only sells in bulk, but is putting up a "filling station" and I'll try it out when he does. He recommends up to 20% bio. You can run any mixture you want, but there are issues to deal with if you use it straight. For example, bio can deteriorate some rubber parts in older trucks at higher concentrations, and at high concentrations it acts like a solvent and can do things like remove varnish and buildup from parts (bad because the gunk is now free to clog up your fuel filter). Also pure bio is a bit more expensive than plain diesel around here.
Ford says: "Ford Motor Company does not recommend modifications to your vehicle. We strongly recommend discussing this modification with the Service Department of your local Ford dealership before initiating this procedure." That's their general reply to everything non-Ford.
International (Navistar) says: "The use of products such as biodiesel is at the discretion of the end-user.... The International engine warranty... is not affected simply by the use of biodiesel regardless of the product's origin."
As with oil, filters and other consumables, manufacturers don't warranty the fuel, only their products. So if your fuel (or oil or filter) doesn't damage the engine, then you're fine.
Modern biodiesel is a high tech clean burning fuel, but I think that many people have the notion that it's just dirty french-fry oil that someone has run through a filter. Bio is pure and clean, and has better lubricity than diesel and is good not only for the engine but also other parts like injection pumps. Of course, Powerstrokes don't have injection pumps. The lye used in manufacturing is only used as a catalyst, and is not present in the final product.
There's a local supplier of bio-diesel here, and he's says that everyone runs it with no problems, including lots of newer Ford PSDs. I think he even said that he has PSDs in his fleet. He only sells in bulk, but is putting up a "filling station" and I'll try it out when he does. He recommends up to 20% bio. You can run any mixture you want, but there are issues to deal with if you use it straight. For example, bio can deteriorate some rubber parts in older trucks at higher concentrations, and at high concentrations it acts like a solvent and can do things like remove varnish and buildup from parts (bad because the gunk is now free to clog up your fuel filter). Also pure bio is a bit more expensive than plain diesel around here.
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#8
06-10-2006, 02:37 AM
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To all: 
I have been reading a lot of hearsay about vegie based fuel. This brings up a couple of questions. Firat let me say that I live in SoCal where it never gets below 30. The unit is an 01 F250 7.3 wit 4" exhaust and some intake air mods. I have 130,000 miles on the vehicle.
I read that dino and veggi or bio would not mix, or stay mixed. I have had 3 bottles sitting for a week and 1/2. Bottle #1 contains #2 + filtered veggie, 50% mix. Bottle #2 contains veggie and jet A 50% mix. Bottle #3 contains veggie,dino and jet A 30% each mix. Temps have been taken from 90 deg. to 0 deg. being carefull not to agitate. There was a little clouding at +4 deg. but no seperation of any kind. Can any of the chemistry folks explain this?
I have been looking at Jet A as a cleaner/solvent since it can be used by itself as a fuel and has some nice additive packages and no moisture. has anybody checked this out? Could it be a cheep power adder? What is the cetain range for jet A or keroceen? It does smell a lot like Stanodyne.
Sombody said that using veggie oil would coke your engine. So will dino diesel if the compression is too low or the engine gets too much fuel for a long period of time. One of the by products of our engines is soft carbon (black smoke). Just look at the tail pipe tip.
Veggie oil is an astringant and can clean your fuel system and thus clog the fuel filter. Sure can but only if your lazy and don't change the filter when you should.
Just looking for some good answers and no hear say.
PWRPROD
I have been reading a lot of hearsay about vegie based fuel. This brings up a couple of questions. Firat let me say that I live in SoCal where it never gets below 30. The unit is an 01 F250 7.3 wit 4" exhaust and some intake air mods. I have 130,000 miles on the vehicle.I read that dino and veggi or bio would not mix, or stay mixed. I have had 3 bottles sitting for a week and 1/2. Bottle #1 contains #2 + filtered veggie, 50% mix. Bottle #2 contains veggie and jet A 50% mix. Bottle #3 contains veggie,dino and jet A 30% each mix. Temps have been taken from 90 deg. to 0 deg. being carefull not to agitate. There was a little clouding at +4 deg. but no seperation of any kind. Can any of the chemistry folks explain this?
I have been looking at Jet A as a cleaner/solvent since it can be used by itself as a fuel and has some nice additive packages and no moisture. has anybody checked this out?
Could it be a cheep power adder? What is the cetain range for jet A or keroceen? It does smell a lot like Stanodyne.Sombody said that using veggie oil would coke your engine. So will dino diesel if the compression is too low or the engine gets too much fuel for a long period of time. One of the by products of our engines is soft carbon (black smoke). Just look at the tail pipe tip.
Veggie oil is an astringant and can clean your fuel system and thus clog the fuel filter. Sure can but only if your lazy and don't change the filter when you should.
Just looking for some good answers and no hear say.
PWRPROD
#9
06-10-2006, 07:23 AM
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Originally Posted by c_nate
no experience with it, but this is what i have read:
1)biodiesel is hard on injector pumps
2)lye is used to make bio diesel, that too is hard on pumps if it is not removed or used up in the processing of the oil.
3) newer diesels with electronic injection will work better on biodeisel than a mechanical pump injector, less moving parts to get fouled by the biodiesel.
just what have I read, hope it helps a little,
Nate
1)biodiesel is hard on injector pumps
2)lye is used to make bio diesel, that too is hard on pumps if it is not removed or used up in the processing of the oil.
3) newer diesels with electronic injection will work better on biodeisel than a mechanical pump injector, less moving parts to get fouled by the biodiesel.
just what have I read, hope it helps a little,
Nate
#2, Correctly made biodiesel has less than .02percent "Lye" in it.
#3, Any diesel engine will work with biodiesel.
I've been making and using Biodiesel for over 2 years in many different diesels, including "powerstrokes" cummins, cat, and international. I have had NOT ONE PROBLEM. Diesel engines LOVE bio, they run smoother, quieter, and smell much better.
Check out some of the threads on this forum to see what others think about using it.
For the facts on how biodiesel works look here: http://biodieselcommunity.org
FABMANDELUX.
#11
06-10-2006, 10:13 AM
For those that think Bio is bad for your engine, just run one tank with even B5 but better yet would be B20, and listen to the engine, expecially the 7.3 psd, that thing will reduce the hammering noise from teh injectors a LOT. That in and of itself should tell you that your not beating your parts to death. Next Both of the diesels I have started running it in have increased the fuel economy, contrary to the claims of some that Bio has less BTUs of energy and will hurt the fuel economy. Both my 7.3PSD, and the 2005 Volvo 465hp that I drive for work have increased by approx 5-7% not bad. But even if they didn't increase I would continue to run it due to the lubricity and the fact that ever gallon I run Bio is one gallon thats not bieng bought from the middle east.
#12
06-11-2006, 01:34 AM
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Good Stuff
Hi All: That was some very good stuff. I too am concerned about the lye in the fuel after making Bio, ( any amount in the fuel is to much) also about having any amount of ethinal about the place. So I have chosen to use well filtered (3 micron) used vegie oil in a 50% mix maximum. Ford only filters to 10 micron. I do grin all the way to the bank keeping $30.00 for every ten gallons. Whats even better is the government is getting no taxes either. 
Now has any body had any or actually seen an engine hurt by the coking efect of this fuel? What are the symptoms if any? Can an aditive like stanodyne prevent or help clean it up if there is a problem?
PWRPROD
That was some very good stuff. I too am concerned about the lye in the fuel after making Bio, ( any amount in the fuel is to much) also about having any amount of ethinal about the place. So I have chosen to use well filtered (3 micron) used vegie oil in a 50% mix maximum. Ford only filters to 10 micron. I do grin all the way to the bank keeping $30.00 for every ten gallons. Whats even better is the government is getting no taxes either. Now has any body had any or actually seen an engine hurt by the coking efect of this fuel? What are the symptoms if any? Can an aditive like stanodyne prevent or help clean it up if there is a problem?
PWRPROD
#13
06-11-2006, 09:45 AM
I use B11 in mine and it runs great. I run it in an '05 Passat TDI also. I like the higher catane/lubricity factor.
It's my theory that the manufacturers are a little gun shy as teh quality aspect is still a little iffy. Especially if someone decides to dump stright or waste veggie oil in. I'm confidant in the 11% soy blend at the Marathon station.
Take Care
It's my theory that the manufacturers are a little gun shy as teh quality aspect is still a little iffy. Especially if someone decides to dump stright or waste veggie oil in. I'm confidant in the 11% soy blend at the Marathon station.
Take Care
#14
06-11-2006, 10:08 AM
This is the last documented statement from Ford that I have seen and it was in late '04 early '05 as I recall:
Ford's Position on Biodiesel:
Ford is advising that any of their vehicles powered by a diesel engine, regardless of manufacturer, may exhibit engine or fuel system problems when using fuels with greater than 5% Biodiesel. Any problems when using fuels containing more than 5% Biodiesel should be referred to the fuel manufacturer. Ford only recomends using fuels containing no more than 5% Biodiesel (B5) in their diesel powered vehicles. In addition, as per World Wide Fuel Charter (WWFC) catagory 1-3, fatty acid methyl esters (FAME) must meet EN14214 and ASTM D 6751 specifications. Broadcast Message 0884, 3626, 4942.
In regards to the 6.0. After over 2 years heavily embedded in the 6.0 forum here, and somewhat involved at other sites, I have never seen or heard of a warranty issue or denial related to biodiesel. Doesn't mean it hasn't happened. I just have not seen it.
With that said, I do understand Fords position. There are no controls in the home grown biodiesel market. Just because all of our members are able to develop an outstanding product does not mean that the rest of the bio folks are. No telling what some are doing that could create major issues with the 6.0....
I don't get in this forum often. Thanks for letting me stop by and visit a spell.
Ford's Position on Biodiesel:
Ford is advising that any of their vehicles powered by a diesel engine, regardless of manufacturer, may exhibit engine or fuel system problems when using fuels with greater than 5% Biodiesel. Any problems when using fuels containing more than 5% Biodiesel should be referred to the fuel manufacturer. Ford only recomends using fuels containing no more than 5% Biodiesel (B5) in their diesel powered vehicles. In addition, as per World Wide Fuel Charter (WWFC) catagory 1-3, fatty acid methyl esters (FAME) must meet EN14214 and ASTM D 6751 specifications. Broadcast Message 0884, 3626, 4942.
In regards to the 6.0. After over 2 years heavily embedded in the 6.0 forum here, and somewhat involved at other sites, I have never seen or heard of a warranty issue or denial related to biodiesel. Doesn't mean it hasn't happened. I just have not seen it.
With that said, I do understand Fords position. There are no controls in the home grown biodiesel market. Just because all of our members are able to develop an outstanding product does not mean that the rest of the bio folks are. No telling what some are doing that could create major issues with the 6.0....
I don't get in this forum often. Thanks for letting me stop by and visit a spell.
