You are currently viewing our forums as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join the Ford-Trucks Forums community today!
Has anybody in here heard about the "200 MPG carburetors" (They didn't really get 200 MPG) and such? Why didn't they ever get main-streamed? Was it because of oil companies buying out the patents?
I did some searching and came up with a few sites (all though I lost the sites.. but I do have some of the information I copied and pasted) about 4 months ago and came up with a few hits, but lately I've just been wondering why this information isn't let out.
Anybody have any light to shed on this?
Did we just become best friends?!
This "200 mpg" carb story has been floating around since the fuel crisis of the 70's. There is simply no truth to it at all. A carb cannot net you 200 mpg the engine also needs to be built for economy but you will still never see 200 mpg.
I'm not saying you would see the 200 MPG but several people quadrupled their gas mileage using modified carburetors. The downside was that the mpg gradually decreased as the vehicle was driven more due to breakdown of the elements in the carb that evaporated the gas molecules.
I haven't seen this in person, I'm just curious.
Did we just become best friends?!
Romer, the stories you have heard are myths. There have been stories of a Mr Poque from winnepeg Canada who supposedly invented the 100 mpg carb. It is a nice idea, but it can't happen. Most gasoline engines run at 25% or less thermal efficiency, that is a function of the fuel and the compression ratio. The carb is not the problem. If you were getting 25mpg, and your new carb gave you 100 mpg, then you engine would burning at 100% TE. Nice, but we don't yet know how to do that. I don't see it happening in our lifetimes, or ever for that matter. If someone quadrupled their mileage, they may very well have had something the matter with the carb before, and the repair brought fuel economy back to where it should have been all along. As an example, suppose your choke was stuck and your ignition advance didn't work. Fixing those could bring your mileage from 4 to 16. Mileage quadrupled. But it still is then only running where it should have been all along. Most of these high mileage carb myths come from the idea that all of the gasoline is not vapourized or burned. But unless you see an engine that has liquid fuel coming out of the exhaust, that is an imaginary problem. DF, @ his Dad's
Dino is correct. Back in the 20's or 30's, a guy by the name of Pogue, who lived in Winnipeg, claimed he had developed a 100 or 200 mpg carb.
My father who passed away a few years ago, lived in Winnipeg at the time, I remember him telling me, there was a fair amount of controversy (in North America, maybe Britain) about it back in the Depression years.
Pogue mysteriously disappeared, I believe, and one of the rumours was that he had been paid off by the oil companies to kill the 200 mpg. carb. There were other rumours as well, apparently, but in the end, the Pogue carb kind of disappeared. Who knows what the truth is, or was, at this point in history.
I heard that he had demonstrated it , on a Ford or Chevy, at that time, but this could be wrong also.
It would be interesting to see if any books have been written on the subject. I used to routinely get, about 65 - 70 mpg on my Yamaha 500cc single cylinder, 4 stroke motorcycle, which weighs about 360 lbs.
I kind of wonder if you used this engine, but with fuel injection instead of a carb. in a small, light car, like maybe a larger Isetta or Messerschmidt, what kind of mileage you could get?
A Smart car gets pretty phenomenal mileage with it's small 800cc Turbo Diesel. Something in the high 60s / low 70s miles per gallon. No electric hybrid, just light weight, small engine does the trick.
Pogue wanted people to believe his carb existed because he said it did. He's a classic attention *****.
"Yes, this carb really does get 200 mpg....because I say it does! It's in the garage,. but you can't see it. Just trust me on this!"
We're supposed to take that as he really did make it happen. Nobody alive back then saw it happen, but they were supposed to believe him as well.
I don't see why the oil companies would kill this off when all their marketing departments would have to do is get the idea across that we ought to drive across country on more vacations just because we can--I WOULD! I can see airlines being scared of that, but nobody seems to bring that angle up! Drive to Alaska for ~15 gallons each way or fly? No contest. My camera doesn't take pics through Boeing 737 windows very well.
Carbs are too dumb and are too good at dumping fuel into engines and little more. Besides, Physics > carburetors.
All I see on Google is hearsay and "we should use this to sock it to oil companies" smack. Just one example...
I will wait for our disel refining to get better than it is (which is the worst in the world by far, mind you) and get one of those sweet Euro diesels that gets well over 50 mpg's and hope the Ranger gets one to boot.
This urban myth has been going around for decades, as has been stated above. The Fish carburator from the 1940s was another one. During WWII there was gasoline rationing so naturally a myth like this would surface. People not educated in chemistry, physics or engineering tend to fall for the conspiracy theories.
The most efficient gasoline engines ever produced were the big (3350ci) 18 cylinder radials used in the DC-7 airliner. They used 145 octane leaded gas and "Power Recovery Turbines" that took waste exhaust heat and converted it to mechanical energy geared back into the crankshaft. The Bendix injection carburator was similar to the optional, and troublesome, mechanical fuel injection setup on 1957 Corvettes. That car certainly did not get 200mpg.
In the seventies, I got a look at one of the proposed schemes. The basis of it was fairly simple.
I will admit though, that it looked like a product of an Art Bell fan.
The idea was to use the heat of engine coolant and a heat exchanger to evaporate the fuel more efficiently - in effect totally vaporising it. Which does not completely happen in an engine. In a normal engine fuel is "Atomised", forming a sort of mist. This fuel mist can easily condense out of the fuel-air stream in the manifold. This is the reason stock intake manifolds are most often heated using passages in them and a coolant return line.
A lot of design effort has gone into preventing fuel from pooling, in fact, in racing engine intake manifolds (Particularly in the runners).
One problem I see with the concept is that unless intake air is heated as well, no matter how well vaporised the mix was on entry it would be cooled by the intake air and return to an atomised state.
Secondly, how to control a mass of vaporised fuel? It begs ignition from almost any source if exposed to oxygen. It will have to expand if it enters a gaseous state. How would such a thing be contained?
Parallel thought process; Suppose you had a chamber with a heating element sufficient to heat both fuel and the air mass to a point where an ideal mixture was available to the intake and throttle plate.
It would be a serious explosion risk, and would almost certainly be complicated by what means might be used to vary the fuel density under different driving conditions.
Unless of course the two (fuel and air) were treated seperately.
So now we need both a hot air delivery system (which flies in the face of recent turbo charging intercooler technology), and a vaporised fuel delivery system.
If it could be done (not saying it will be, but if so) and an electronic control device could meter them, it might make a significant difference. But how much is anyones guess...
"Never say 'IMPOSSIBLE' until you have passed a Gall Stone..."
I told my Congressman the same thing I told my estranged wife:
"BUTT OUT, dammit. That is my decision to make - not yours."
It is said in a multitude of witnesses there is truth.
Over the past few years in my search for the truth regarding this information, I have obtained much literature. There have been many attempts to spread this information by publishing a book or manual. The following is a brief over view to inform you of what the authors of these books have learned and felt everyone should be informed of. Each contains comments on the aspects of suppression and the aggravation felt, knowing this information. These authors are trying to fight this injustice. I feel that each publication attempt is a last resort after trying many other ways to get their information out. Knowing this I have used excerpts that I am confident the original authors would not mind any miniscule copy right infringement of what is printed here. If any problems, I will certainly fairly compensate any with what ever profits if any received.
In the next few pages I will give you my reports and analysis, and point out key information that is similar in our findings. I found that no one has understood the whole picture yet. However, each helps contribute to the knowledge. Some of these manuals give detailed plans to reproduce what the author made work for a while. I do not recommend building any of these units, as the complexity of the real solution is far too much for one person to perfect. These units worked for a time and on some of the principles required. However, they are not good or safe enough to justify their construction with the fuel additive problem. I do point out these systems so you may better understand the real answer, the necessity of mass production. Many of these inventors, such as I, have spent far more in research than, what I could realize in actual gasoline savings in my lifetime. We do it for the betterment of all, not just for personal gain or savings. Knowing that only through total understanding do we have a chance to beat the suppression and have success.
These books I report on, are in the order that I received them to enlighten you as to my learning process. Some of the last books I received were better and had been written prior to mine but I have just received them recently. I believe there are probably more books, information and patents out there and I am hoping to get more after this publication. So if you think you know someone involved in this idea, please pass this on to them. Many tend to keep it secretive as to the misguided laws our Patent Office generates. This should be no secret, it has been suppressed. Many of you know this, so I challenge you to see that it gets out now. Make an effort ! These men tried and lost because of the lack of help and the enormous powers that they were and I am facing.
The first book and the book that got me started was "SECRETS OF THE 200 MPG CARBURETOR BY ALLAN WALLACE @ 1980 published by Premier Publishers Fort Worth Texas. This was a listing of 17 different accounts, patents or articles on somebody getting 3 times or better the gas mileage. Starting with Charles N. Pogue in 1933 and phenomenal claims of 200 M.P.G. The author states his belief in these systems and testimonies by relating his own experimenting and research. He further relates his understanding that we are controlled by corporations and suppression. He gives formulas that justify these carburetor claims through air gas ratio figures creating proper vaporization. There were testimonial letters that stated these fantastic claims were correct with many names and addresses of others working on this at that time. He backs up these claims as best he understood. He attributes the mileage gain to vapor and changing air ratio, with no mention of producing natural gas. This book puts forth these super carburetors in a presentable way and it was what got me started in finding out this idea. Apparently 300,000 were sold. It alone made an interesting case on the spects of suppression of these systems.
The next 3 books I got all at one time, a friend was telling his friend what I was trying with vapor carbs and he gave them to me, he had ordered the books earlier and did not think he would build one.
"200 M.P.G. CARBURETORS FACT OR FRAUD", a special report was also written by Allan Wallace in 1982. He gave some of the same presentation in his first book, and added further information and feedback from others working on systems and information to help get it to the market. He talks about efforts to suppress his first book and includes a couple of newer patent disclosures and lists 60 patent numbers for references.
The next book was Ray Covey's "VAPOR CARBURETION CONVERSION SYSTEM", published 1984 by Carb Research Center in Foyil, Oklahoma 74031. He claims 72 M.P.G. in a 400 c.i. Chrysler. Using a small carb he runs vapor air gas into a box through screen filed tubes heated by exhaust gas. He gives detailed plans on how to build it and I have talked to guys that did it that claim triple the gas mileage. The problem was they all lost efficiency the further they drove and eventually just got the same as a regular carb because of the fuel additives building up on the screens and metal tubing. There was no mention about the additives in his book. It was mentioned that the cars ran smoother on his box system and smelled clean burning like propane or natural gas. This vapor box design went well for a few years according to Bob Heiderich at C.R.C. Later he found also that the fuel was plugging them up after a while of driving. In 1988 the oil companies did something to the fuel and he could not get them to get any better than 50% improvement, if that. Many have testified that it was great when new and up to 140 M.P.G. using this system. I saw a testimony of a guy with a big bus who went from 8 to 35 M.P.G.
Also presented is the idea that the Pogue carb was used in World War II on tanks, trucks and jeeps. According to many sources, such as ex G.I.s and excerpts from Field Marshall Rommels own war records, this was the case. He also lists 120 patent numbers on vapor carburetor patents owned by oil companies. The author states the opposition is big and hopes that his publication will help get it going. His manual did well for a few years and was followed by an improved version with more tubes. Each system worked differently due to different gasoline additives in different parts of the country.
Loren and Kelly Naylor, a father and son team designed a system called the "HIGH MILEAGE VAPOR PHASE CARBURETOR" in 1982. by C.R.C. Box 1, Foyil, OK 74031. It had two heater cores and a mesh pack of copper knit cleaning pads. It was a recirculating type of system, but probably catalytically cracked some on the metal cleaning pads. It did have the problem, as all recirculating systems do, of leftover fuel. They admit to this, but state they just burnt it through the regular carb system. He states his mileage went from 14 to 30 M.P.G. with no power loss. This system was a hot water heated system and gave only a small increase as the temperatures were not high enough to crack the larger molecules.
Another carb that I have a manual on is the Burley Willamson "FANTASTIC VAPOR CARBURETOR" Patented Aug. 15 1978 #4,106,453. Published by H & A Industries Route 2, Box 35 Bowling Green Mo. 63334. He showed a vacuum tank for preheated gasoline and a variable Ventura type mixer and used pre heated air. He made no claims to actual mileage increase. I felt this was just one of the many who did not understand the true principle and only had modest gains. His system did not have the factors needed to crack the fuel into natural gas.
Donald E. Novak, physicist, out of Van Nuts Ca. 91406 put on a seminar called "100 MILES TO THE GALLON". Mr. Novak presented the case and related an experiment and achievements of super carburetors in 1976 before a congressional subcommittee. He talked of three systems and explains them to have an increase factor of up to 1000%. He talks all vapor and seems to put forth a good argument, but there was no plans for a system, he didn't understand T.C.C.
Another is "HIGH MILEAGE SEMINAR WORKBOOK" by Bruce H. McCauseland, P.O. Box 197 Sta. C Buffalo, N.Y. 14209. He comes right out and explains the suppression saying flat out banks have share holder control in auto and oil companies. He shows a 1913 patent, #1,065,370, of a heated vapor carburetor and a complete file set of Pogue's 1936 patent disclosures and a 1972 General Motors patent #3,851,633 on a vapor carb. He also includes an article about a micro carb invented by Albert B. Csonka, and all the hassle he went through to get help to market it, with no avail after years of proving it worked.
In 1990 I received a booklet called the "CARBURETOR ENHANCER" By George Wiseman out of British Columbia. He describes the principles of inducing a vacuum over the fuel in the float chamber, to lean out the fuel flow. It was an ingenius way of increasing mileage 10%-30%. Some vehicles mileage would double if it was a gas pig already. But it was not without it's problems. like stalling or lean it out too far and burn your valves.
George Wiseman also put out a system called an "HYDROCARBON OXYGENATOR", the manual published by himself in 1990. He explained a cold bubbler system to just give the engine a partial vapor boost. I tried this on two different cars and found it to be a to unreliable. I am sure it turned off many people playing with carburetor kits. I heard from some that triple mileage was obtained, however I never saw more than about 50% improvement at best using his system. I spent too much time tuning and repairing design problems. I believe that additives may have had a lot to do with it and I even tried using a carbon filter to catch them but with no difference worth the effort. I talked to George on the phone many times at length hoping that he could solve it. He understood T.C.C. to some degree, but thought his bubbler was all that was needed. Apparently there were problems in his castings and he lost big time dollars in trying to get it going. All his phones have been disconnected and I wonder sometimes what happened to him. I really think he was trying to get the thing done, but because he did not fully understand and just ended up confusing the issue a little more.
Last year I received the book "THE ELUSIVE HIGH MILEAGE CARBURETOR" By Larry D. Wagner, published by Valley Press, 1984, out of Puyallup Washington 98371. It is probably one of the best of all the books as to understanding catalytic cracking. He made an extensive study and accumulated similar evidence in his research. He claims his complex system got 85 M.P.G. in his 455 c.i. Buick and states most systems on other cars are obtaining an average 250% increase.
If anyone reads his book and my first book, they would see that we have two completely different approaches and come up with very similar answers. He was hassled badly by the E.P.A. who drove him into bankruptcy by their testings with additive laced fuels that always failed the tests. Larry did not understand the additives completely.
He gives the histories of different units and relates that while giving a lecture he mentioned that a tank mechanic had told him about W W 2 use of the Pogue system and was interrupted by a ex-tank driver who confirmed the story. Later, at another lecture, another military driver claimed 50 M.P.G. using a secret box carburetor. He states also about Detroit production test super carbs that would slip out to the market. He states his fears of suppression and his hopes for the survival of this technology.
A Book called GASOLINE CRISIS ANSWERS was published by J.E. Ambassador Jackson in 1977 of the National Car Drivers Association P.O. Box 1111, Tacoma, Wash. 98401. He lists many, many articles on the Pogue carb and others and concludes that "highly efficient carburetor systems have been invented." Wouldn't you like to drive from 110 to 160 miles on one gallon of gasoline?". He also talks of oil filters, the Frantz filters that can save oil. And alternative engines such as the turbine engine and their efficiency and reliability proven in the 1950's that keep them off our market and sitting on a shelf. The evidence and information he has compiled is compelling and leaves little doubt as to the existence of suppression forces.
THE SECRET OF THE 100 M.P.G. AUTOMOBILE by Thomas O'Brien published in 1981 by Auto View P.O. Box 526 Phoenixville Pa. 19460. It has 112 pages that lay down another excellent argument that super carbs are real but shelved. He talks of some systems and air ratios along with catalytic cracking in oil refineries. He did some research and ran out of money. He decided to write his book to raise money to continue. He gives Reprints of the many newspaper articles on the Pogue system. There is pictured a Pogue carb that sat in an attic for years. He too leaves you with a feeling of suppression.
The previous Three books can be purchased at $10.00 each from Brad Dennis 7532 Brigadoon Pl. Fridley Minisota, 55432 Phone 612 783-8050 exerpts and photocopy can be found on the center pages.
After 10 years research and marketing others' inventions, Bob Hiederich Of C.R.C. Foyil OK. 74031, has a manual and kit called IMPRO 2000 COLD VAPOR HIGH MILEAGE SYSTEM (C) 1992. It is a simple vapor pot that works only on higher speeds with modest gains up to 50% I have tried to relate T.C.C. but he felt the cold system would suffice and he to felt that any system had to be practical and simple. He might be getting some catalytic cracking using copper cleaning pads. It seems simple, and he says, effective so far. He does not have a return line so he is not recirculating the fuel. Just a timer and fuel injector. He says he has not had the problems associated with additives. Last time I talked to him he was still refining it. Of many kits, this one looks good but not one I would try.
I have more information from Bob Heiderich, he read this report and commented now he understands what he has been doing. He had his Cadilac runnuing 75 M.P.G. for a while on the Covey system but now has a invention he calls the "Turbonator" It is a container with baffles in it that the PVC gases flow through in such a way that it causes cracking of the gases to increase mileage and reduce pollution and gives double the gas mileage in some cars. He said he had manufacturing problems with kit parts but has many testomonials on fantastic gains. He said because of the manufacturing problems on a bypass valve he has rerouted the system and it was working much better. Just looking at the thing you can see it would cut exhaust emmissions and every car should have one. He too has no outside help in his research and development. He mentions my report and has been a help in preliminary publishing, But hard to get on the phone, almost impossible. I have reports from others who tried with no results.
The last book I received was SECRETS OF SUPER MILEAGE CARBURETORS by Reno Sales (c) 1982. Published by Premier Publishers P.O. Box 16254 Fort Worth, Texas 76133. It contained a variety of 20 different methods designed by even more inventors I had not heard of before, with drawings and claims from many people: Arthur C. Sgrignoli of Enola PA. 1979 86% increase efficiency; Roy Nichols FUEL MISER of Richardson TX. obtaining 100 M.P.G.; an earlier version of the Ray Covey idea in 1981 with his Mark 1 system at 65 M.P.G.; Ron Beasley Of Ottumwa IA. triples standard mileage; an evaporation type similar to your furnace humidifier done by Ted LaPan of Fort Wayne IN. in 1974 he claims 60 to 100 M.P.G.; the NAY BOX by Elmer Nay; and the Naylor an earlier Pogue, all which were the recirculating type. He explains it as vapor and makes the recommendation that if you want one, you would have to build it yourself. He does not have any idea of Thermal Catalytic Cracking and claims thousands have been patented and many more just built to run vapor and that is all that is needed.
Basically, I think we need to understand that no one could ever perfect it alone. Many have tried and gained some due to the many different ways that T.C.C. can occur. These many systems failed due to gasoline additives. Most gave up thinking that nothing can be done because they did not fully understand. The only answer for each of us to benefit is by publishing the real truth - that these systems are possible and absolutely necessary now! Help to spread this and make a donation to the research and development. It cannot be patented, therefore no investment can be guarranteed. I am taking steps to set this up as a non profit organization, after all, that has been the way it has been going. I was not originally intending that it be that way. To learn and publish this information it probably cost me Personally $ 75,000 so far. I know it has cost far more for many others and much more now if it is ever to succeed.
Please get involved now ! Spread this news. If this is coming to you on computer modem, fax or photo copy there is an honor copyright. Please if you read this and agree and understand and care send a donation to help this voice to be heard.
This information may be copied, transmitted, or reprinted by anyone so please just help to get this in the public eye that the pollution stops so all of us may benifit to benefit. This can probably only ever succeed by a great joining effort of many, not through the little efforts of back yard mechanics trying to keep it secret, to ensure that they get their piece of the pie. Almost on a national scale as the atomic and space program. A definite effort needs to be made by the oil and car companies to work on this Thermal Catalytic Cracking and the clean gasoline to run this system on.
This is the answer, not Compressed Natural gas, Hydrogen or Electric cars which are not as practical or near to the efficiency that is demonstated by this system.
The advancement of this technology is only possible with total public knowledge so please do your part. I have a theory that they can not keep something a secret when more than 50% of the people know. Ask around - some know, many suspect and when they are presented with this information, most readily understand and believe. Hopefully the internet will be a help in finally bringing this to market. If you read this on the Net Please help disseminate this to others.
Press Release as on the centre page have been sent out with no response from the general media, if you would like to copy and try your media please feel free to do so. Sometimes things have to be heard from a distance to get through, so try your area.
The Internet is a hard place because of tremendous information overload building there. If you have access to the internet please check my web site at http://www.webnetlogics.com/himac
I will keep uploading more info as time goes on.
This information comes in a book form for $19.95 + $3.50 S+H money back guarantee if not satisfied.
Many have responded favorable and I am hearing new stories of others super systems. I will keep on and I am intending to step up my end advertising. With my limited resources I hope that you who read this and believe will help me to get this information out.
Thank you for having an open mind to examine this idea. If you still are not convinced then do your own survey, ask around there are more accounts out there than I could ever write about. Be a skeptic, not just about me but the people who have been making the money and taxes, dig in - the truth is out there.
If you can be of help in any way please contact me at the address below.
J. Bruce McBurney
HIMAC Research Publications
6665 McLeod Road
Niagara Falls, Ontario, Canada
Phone or fax (905) 358-9439 or (905)358-8541
Did we just become best friends?!
I have one on my bicycle. Here is how it works.
4 trips to the grocery store and one trip to the bike shop - 22 miles total.
MPG in my van is 22.
At the bike store - get one tube and one handlebar wrap - good for about 200miles of riding
At the grocery store - get 1 can V8 Juice - Spicy, 1 donut and 1 banana, 2 PowerBars, small pack of Gatorade and some oatmeal. This is good for 50 mile ride.
Now the math:
1 gallon of gas for the van = 22miles in van = bike stuff and eats for 4 x 50 mile rides = 200 MPG
See it is really simple.
1978 F250 2WD Crew Cab 351M/ C6 - SOLD
1999 F250 2WD CC LWB 7.3L 4R100: Door Ajar light Fixed, Power Locks Fixed, Rotella T6 Synthetic, Fuel Bowl Seal Kit
I vaguely remember seeing a documentary about 20 - 25 years ago where they put a small engine in a 280Z or maybe a 260Z, I think the engine was a small 2 or 4 cyl motorcycle engine. IIRC, they got 100 mpg with it.
"It's not the votes that count, it's who counts the votes"
I can't outrun bullets, but I might outrun an *alien* with an empty gun.
This forum is owned and operated by Internet Brands, Inc., a Delaware corporation. It is not authorized or endorsed by the Ford Motor Company and is not affiliated with the Ford Motor Company or its related companies in any way. FordŽ is a registered trademark of the Ford Motor Company.