when is ford going to get a motor
#46
03-09-2006, 11:05 PM
#47
03-09-2006, 11:09 PM
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Heres my imput, look at it this way a 350 cheby and a 305 same stroke smaller bore. The 305 is a dog, a 302 makes much nicer tq than them with a 4"x3" bore stroke set up. Look at the 351Ws 340tq@3200rpm 240hp@4200rpm @ 8.8:1 with heads that compared to the 3V are like sucking through a straw and cams that were lacking but I have also seen the 96s(roller, SEFI MA) get good gas mileage too. Now the 3V 5.4 300hp@5000rpm 365tq@3750, @ 9.8:1 a full point higher and only 25more ft lb of tq. seen mileage range from 14-17 on them too. I think ford jumped out of the windsors way too fast its easy to build power out of them sure throw a supercharger on it, but are they building the bottom end to handle the extra pressure? its like when they dropped the 351M/400 when it came to emissions, lost a good high tq small block.
Just my 2 cents
Curtis
Just my 2 cents
Curtis
#48
03-09-2006, 11:24 PM
Originally Posted by edgl
I have driven 2 F350 Ford V10s, and they are not that impressive. One is an 06 F350 dually, and the other was as 2001. My co-worker has a 97 F350 with a 460 V8, and that truck will flat out run. The 460 is a very strong engine.
Ed G
Ed G
Is the 6.8 V10 not like 310 hp at 425 ft lbs compared to the 460 producing 245hp and 400 ft lbs?
I mean the v10 should walk all over the 460, so you would think that you are overlooking other specs. Perhaps the 97 460 you drove had much different axle gearing and transmission... Did you drive both trucks in the city? towing? highway??
I really dont see how a 9 year old dated 460 can have any advantage over a brand new v10 UNLESS all you did was jump on the gas and feel the taller gears of one.
#49
03-09-2006, 11:33 PM
Just thought I'd clear the air a bit about this hemi thing. If I'm not mistaken those new "hemis" are dual sparkplug right? Ever wonder why that is? Because a purely hemispherical chamber is junk when run natch aspirated on gasoline. You see there is little or no quench area in which to homoginize the mixture prior to ignition. Its dirty and not fuel efficient. The new "hemi" is very much like a baby IHRA prostock Ford Boss head. The valves are across from each other and the ports are short and direct, but the chamber is modified with quench pads to keep the fuel suspended as much as possible. DCX I believe added an extra plug to further complete the burn in that big ole cylinder. This argument about the ultimate truck engine could be easily filed in the hogwash bin if Ford simply unleashed ALL the potential in the Modular design. Either spread out the bores and make `em bigger or go with what was originally intended from the Mods when more displacement was needed....add cylinders. A 3- valve 4.6 based V10 comes out to 351 cubic inches boys. If the 351 V10 made the same power per cube as the 4.6 V8 Explorer it would come to 365hp. Would that be enough? Don't tell me there aint enough room, cause I know better. Ever see the length of an `04 F150 fan shroud?
#50
03-10-2006, 12:53 AM
Originally Posted by edgl
I have driven 2 F350 Ford V10s, and they are not that impressive. One is an 06 F350 dually, and the other was as 2001. My co-worker has a 97 F350 with a 460 V8, and that truck will flat out run. The 460 is a very strong engine.
Ed G
Ed G
They need about 6-7k and they really start to run...
I am guessing the 01 was fitted with 3:73's (which you don't want)
A run-in 3V V10 with 4:30's is one stout unit.
#51
03-10-2006, 08:06 AM
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bigf350
thanks for your input here,
for the man knocking a v10 and saying i'll keep my 460 old school motor.
this new v10 with it's 3 valves walks circles around what i could do with my old 95 and it's 460 and 4:10's and my gas milage is even better. yes i'll lay good odds that v10 oldie you drove had 3:73's and well out of proper tune.
yes it took about 7000 miles "150 hours on the meter " to loosen up but it is for a gas motor the outright smoothest/strongest i have ever owned, it tows my bigger boat that comes in at 9.0k with the trailer and a dry fuel tank " add 150 gals of weight if it's loaded."
and yes i am a old school man also. grew up with a flathead v8 under my six. went to 239 ohv. to 312. to 390's, 406's ,427's, 428's, 460's. so please if you have not driven a loosened up 3 v ,v10 try and drive one.
care to drive one that has been regeared to 4:56's, has headers, cold air, custom exhaust, super dyno tuned pcm. and a super duty beefed up trans, ? try to keep the tires locked to the ground. for a GAS motor this thing rocks just like a old 460. just a lot better
thanks for your input here,
for the man knocking a v10 and saying i'll keep my 460 old school motor.
this new v10 with it's 3 valves walks circles around what i could do with my old 95 and it's 460 and 4:10's and my gas milage is even better. yes i'll lay good odds that v10 oldie you drove had 3:73's and well out of proper tune.
yes it took about 7000 miles "150 hours on the meter " to loosen up but it is for a gas motor the outright smoothest/strongest i have ever owned, it tows my bigger boat that comes in at 9.0k with the trailer and a dry fuel tank " add 150 gals of weight if it's loaded."
and yes i am a old school man also. grew up with a flathead v8 under my six. went to 239 ohv. to 312. to 390's, 406's ,427's, 428's, 460's. so please if you have not driven a loosened up 3 v ,v10 try and drive one.
care to drive one that has been regeared to 4:56's, has headers, cold air, custom exhaust, super dyno tuned pcm. and a super duty beefed up trans, ? try to keep the tires locked to the ground. for a GAS motor this thing rocks just like a old 460. just a lot better
#52
03-10-2006, 01:59 PM
Originally Posted by NickFordMan
The 'hemi' used right now is a pentroof combustion chamber ain't it? It starts off as a typical '60's style hemisphereical head, but cuts into a pentroff...due to the fact that the flame cannot be controled as well with the hemi, and that is horrible for emmissions.
More like a modern interpretation of the Hemi, with dual plugs that aren't cetralized.
But the motor makes decent power. The SRT-8 makes big power. My tuner's shop (So Cal Tuning and Performance) just put a Paxton blower on a 300C SRT-8, it runs low 11-second quarters, about what a Z06 Vette runs, and it's an automatic so it much easier to launch then the Vette's manual box.
#54
03-10-2006, 03:48 PM
Yep krewat, some have no Idea......and some are so cloesd minded that wouldn't matter what you show or tell them. My dad is one of the ol hard heads that think "this is the only way". He doesn't say much after we went on an 800 mile trip in my truck anymore though. On the way down he was preaching the 460 song because I only made 11.3mpg (although I was driving 80 into a 30-40mph head wind). On the way back when we wern't in so much of a hurry and I drove 65-70mph and had a 10mph tail wind (different days) he didn't have much to say when we filled (it was his turn to pay for gas) when I got a whoping 15.6mpg!! I haven't gotten that mileage since because I rarely drive under 70 and thats the last trip that had more than 30 miles of highway in one stretch, but at least I know its possible. His 460 only dreams of 13 and the best he's ever gotten is 12. around town its 8-10 while I'm getting 10-12mpg.
Also I have no Idea who you guys get your info from but I have yet to here of a 8.1 break 12mpg. Most of those guys are singing the 10mpg song all while there having to be detune them to make emisions while ford keeps upping the HP and Tq of the V10 at te same time! Heck the GM 6.0 that the neighbor has hardly breaks 10, but it also only has 3000 miles on the odometer. still even if it picks up to say 12 hes still getting worse mileage with a smaller, less powerfull motor in a light truck! The hemi is about as good on gas as the V10 but is a complete dog when its in a 3/4 ton truck, I've been in few of them and have yet to find one that can even think about breaking the tires loose. So this brings me back to the V10 which proves to be the most powerfull, most torque producing engine that is the easiest on fuel all while being put in the heaviest truck made, and somebody has the nerve to think a 460 would do better in a 8000lb truck. Well dad dually weighs 6100lbs, my XLT sport Crew Cab SB wieghs over 7000lbs and I don't have the longbox, the duals, and mine sits 4 inches higher than his yet I still get a consitant 2-3 mpg beter.
Also I have no Idea who you guys get your info from but I have yet to here of a 8.1 break 12mpg. Most of those guys are singing the 10mpg song all while there having to be detune them to make emisions while ford keeps upping the HP and Tq of the V10 at te same time! Heck the GM 6.0 that the neighbor has hardly breaks 10, but it also only has 3000 miles on the odometer. still even if it picks up to say 12 hes still getting worse mileage with a smaller, less powerfull motor in a light truck! The hemi is about as good on gas as the V10 but is a complete dog when its in a 3/4 ton truck, I've been in few of them and have yet to find one that can even think about breaking the tires loose. So this brings me back to the V10 which proves to be the most powerfull, most torque producing engine that is the easiest on fuel all while being put in the heaviest truck made, and somebody has the nerve to think a 460 would do better in a 8000lb truck. Well dad dually weighs 6100lbs, my XLT sport Crew Cab SB wieghs over 7000lbs and I don't have the longbox, the duals, and mine sits 4 inches higher than his yet I still get a consitant 2-3 mpg beter.
#55
03-10-2006, 04:10 PM
Originally Posted by SLE
Yep krewat, some have no Idea......and some are so cloesd minded that wouldn't matter what you show or tell them. My dad is one of the ol hard heads that think "this is the only way".
What made up my mind to get a new truck (my '01 V10) was when idling the highboy 20 FEET away from the garage, with the tailpipes pointing past the garage door, the carbon monoxide (CO) detector went off in the garage.
650PPM! That's DEATH in 45 minutes. My wife just thought I drank too much beer and got sick, but it was really CO poisoning
I went out the next week and started looking at Superduty's.
Now, as for the 460, it came out in the late 60's (429) ...
The only emissions "trick" to the modulars is the small bore. But you can't make an economically feasible motor with such a small bore with the 1960's and 70's engines... big waste of space.
But now, in search of more displacement, they have to make a new motor - the 6.2 (if it exists...) Hmm... a "Boss" 380.
That's a lot of power - and a lot of gas.
I got 26MPG in my '96 t-bird 4.6L AFTER I put a 3.73 rear (orig 3.27) and superchips. Nothing else changed. 23MPG before. And yes, I figured it right
I can only get 22MPG in the same conditions with my '97 Cougar 4.6L. But it's got more low-end grunt than the '96 ever did. Same motor. Same tranny. 3.27 gears. Gotta be the computer tune, but I don't want to run a "chip" in the Cougar (yet). I got a spare Superchips for it
Oh, back to the highboy vs. my Superduty. V10 puts out 425ft/lbs torque peak NET after taking accessories into consideration. I had someone desktop-dyno my 390 build complete with exact cam specs, got 425ft/lbs GROSS. Yeah, the V10 puts out a lot more power than my antique 390 did with 11:1 compression.
#56
03-10-2006, 04:27 PM
I'm almost not surprised to see this lousy arguement rehashed here. I'd cut and paste my response to the thread starters post in the myspace.com forums but it'd just be a waste. Apparently after being schooled in that forum he didn't learn anything.
You cannot educate the willingly ignorant....
I need to find that particular smiley again...
You cannot educate the willingly ignorant....
I need to find that particular smiley again...
#57
03-10-2006, 08:39 PM
Originally Posted by SLE
Yep krewat, some have no Idea......and some are so cloesd minded that wouldn't matter what you show or tell them. My dad is one of the ol hard heads that think "this is the only way". He doesn't say much after we went on an 800 mile trip in my truck anymore though. On the way down he was preaching the 460 song because I only made 11.3mpg (although I was driving 80 into a 30-40mph head wind). On the way back when we wern't in so much of a hurry and I drove 65-70mph and had a 10mph tail wind (different days) he didn't have much to say when we filled (it was his turn to pay for gas) when I got a whoping 15.6mpg!! I haven't gotten that mileage since because I rarely drive under 70 and thats the last trip that had more than 30 miles of highway in one stretch, but at least I know its possible. His 460 only dreams of 13 and the best he's ever gotten is 12. around town its 8-10 while I'm getting 10-12mpg.
Also I have no Idea who you guys get your info from but I have yet to here of a 8.1 break 12mpg. Most of those guys are singing the 10mpg song all while there having to be detune them to make emisions while ford keeps upping the HP and Tq of the V10 at te same time! Heck the GM 6.0 that the neighbor has hardly breaks 10, but it also only has 3000 miles on the odometer. still even if it picks up to say 12 hes still getting worse mileage with a smaller, less powerfull motor in a light truck! The hemi is about as good on gas as the V10 but is a complete dog when its in a 3/4 ton truck, I've been in few of them and have yet to find one that can even think about breaking the tires loose. So this brings me back to the V10 which proves to be the most powerfull, most torque producing engine that is the easiest on fuel all while being put in the heaviest truck made, and somebody has the nerve to think a 460 would do better in a 8000lb truck. Well dad dually weighs 6100lbs, my XLT sport Crew Cab SB wieghs over 7000lbs and I don't have the longbox, the duals, and mine sits 4 inches higher than his yet I still get a consitant 2-3 mpg beter.
Also I have no Idea who you guys get your info from but I have yet to here of a 8.1 break 12mpg. Most of those guys are singing the 10mpg song all while there having to be detune them to make emisions while ford keeps upping the HP and Tq of the V10 at te same time! Heck the GM 6.0 that the neighbor has hardly breaks 10, but it also only has 3000 miles on the odometer. still even if it picks up to say 12 hes still getting worse mileage with a smaller, less powerfull motor in a light truck! The hemi is about as good on gas as the V10 but is a complete dog when its in a 3/4 ton truck, I've been in few of them and have yet to find one that can even think about breaking the tires loose. So this brings me back to the V10 which proves to be the most powerfull, most torque producing engine that is the easiest on fuel all while being put in the heaviest truck made, and somebody has the nerve to think a 460 would do better in a 8000lb truck. Well dad dually weighs 6100lbs, my XLT sport Crew Cab SB wieghs over 7000lbs and I don't have the longbox, the duals, and mine sits 4 inches higher than his yet I still get a consitant 2-3 mpg beter.
Sounds about right.
#58
03-10-2006, 09:10 PM
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Originally Posted by connecting_rodd
The 4.6 and 5.4 are a power disaster. Ford overates the claimed bhp by alot. When you drive all three pickups back to back you know this. When you drive a Mustang, a GTO and Charger all on the same day you know this. Either of Dodge's Hemi's and GM's LS1, LS6's are incredible. Take your pick they both are "old fashioned" pushrods motors and both got less parasitic loss than Fords sophisticated overhead cam boat anchor. Both are knocking out alot of horsepower per cubic inch or liters however you want to look at it. Plus Fords modular motor is both physically big and heavy. When they came out with a "modular motor" they said it was because it would give them flexability. Same pistons just longer stroke will save a ton of money. ???
So physcially big Ford can't put the 5.4 in the Crown Victoria or Mustang. Lets get this strait, Fords largest car, the Crown Vic can't physically fit the larger of its two V8's in the engine bay? Thats why the Marauder had the 4.6, thats why their Police Interceptor has the 4.6. Is this a mistake that Mercedes would make? Would the Japs make such a horrible long term mistake?
One more example. The fullsize luxury SUV's are today what the Caddys were back in the 50's, if you got it flaunt it, big and powerful. Their flagship, their largest and most expensive vehicle can't fit the one motor appropriate to that vehicle in it. The 6.8 V10 again won't physically fit in it. However you look at the brands if the Navigator had the V10 it would pull sales away from the Cadillac Escalade.
While Mopar and the General are making tire buring ticket getting horsepower, Ford is watching paint dry. Ford coming late to the party did a lot of R&D on a high horsepower high displacement pushrod V8 and then killed it when gas briefly hit 3 bucks a gallon. What kind of a knee jerk decisions is top management making over there? They have been in this rut for 10 years, they get up nerve and then lose it again.
Yeah Yeah before all the Mustang freaks point out the nuance fact that one Stang had a 5.4 in it lets just remember what all they had to do to stick it in there. It had to come off the production line, cut the cross member and weld it back together. Then the hood wouldn't close so they made a J.C Whitney looking one and called it good. Could it be anymore top heavy. It came from the factory looking homemade. And they only did it once.
So physcially big Ford can't put the 5.4 in the Crown Victoria or Mustang. Lets get this strait, Fords largest car, the Crown Vic can't physically fit the larger of its two V8's in the engine bay? Thats why the Marauder had the 4.6, thats why their Police Interceptor has the 4.6. Is this a mistake that Mercedes would make? Would the Japs make such a horrible long term mistake?
One more example. The fullsize luxury SUV's are today what the Caddys were back in the 50's, if you got it flaunt it, big and powerful. Their flagship, their largest and most expensive vehicle can't fit the one motor appropriate to that vehicle in it. The 6.8 V10 again won't physically fit in it. However you look at the brands if the Navigator had the V10 it would pull sales away from the Cadillac Escalade.
While Mopar and the General are making tire buring ticket getting horsepower, Ford is watching paint dry. Ford coming late to the party did a lot of R&D on a high horsepower high displacement pushrod V8 and then killed it when gas briefly hit 3 bucks a gallon. What kind of a knee jerk decisions is top management making over there? They have been in this rut for 10 years, they get up nerve and then lose it again.
Yeah Yeah before all the Mustang freaks point out the nuance fact that one Stang had a 5.4 in it lets just remember what all they had to do to stick it in there. It had to come off the production line, cut the cross member and weld it back together. Then the hood wouldn't close so they made a J.C Whitney looking one and called it good. Could it be anymore top heavy. It came from the factory looking homemade. And they only did it once.
The '05 Mustang 3V 4.6 walked the 5.7 Charger........So much for boat anchor
(Aug. '05 MT, numbers upon request)Of course the 6.0 and 7.0 LS motors are awesome.....better be with 360 and 427 cubes. But did the aforementioned industrial accident make us forget what a small blower does to a SOHC 5.4 (Lightning) or how about a DOHC GT motor (550HP outta 330 cubes)??
Not only was there no major surgery to fit the 5.4 in the SN95 Mustang chassis, I've personally seen a V10 installed in a '98(?) Mustang with no cutting required (do a search for Silver State Motorsports V10 Mustang)
Furthermore, the Shelby Mustang due out shortly also runs the "top heavy" 5.4 WITH a blower..........near 500HP is anticipated.
The Panther (CV and MM) will accomadate a 5.4 but Ford was too cheap to EPA and crash test a whole new powertrain.
The 6.2 Hurricane project was never to be a pushrod motor.......I will gladly recant that when proof is supplied. (highly doubt any proof will come considering the incredibly subjective subject matter already spewed from the quoted post)
Does Ford throw their best motors in EVERYTHING? ( like DCX wisely does with their pseudo-hemi) Unfortunately and much to my dismay they don't.
I would love the Terminator motor (DOHC 4V SC Cobra) in my Marauder from the factory (or even a breathed on DOHC 5.4 old Navi motor)
My Lightning would have been insane with DOHC heads (as if near 400HP isn't enough)
Ford did step up with the strongest gasser in a 3/4 ton and up truck....but I guess the mod motor still sucks when compared to those magical mystical 460's and FE's that still were somehow better....
But to say there is anything wrong with what is essentially a very strong, deep skirted, cross bolted main, OHC platform is delusional.
Oh..........and Hi everyone...
Last edited by DOHCmarauder; 03-10-2006 at 09:14 PM.
#60
03-10-2006, 09:32 PM
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ed
watch the hour meter built into the speedo .150 hours and it's like the pcm retunes this beast for break in .seems every one of us with a 3v v10 has felt the same thing.thats a magic hour of some short.
spend some time on a dyno with a sct dealer and you can very easily make thse babys burn rubber when they shift into second on the auto trans.
watch the hour meter built into the speedo .150 hours and it's like the pcm retunes this beast for break in .seems every one of us with a 3v v10 has felt the same thing.thats a magic hour of some short.
spend some time on a dyno with a sct dealer and you can very easily make thse babys burn rubber when they shift into second on the auto trans.