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Old 12-17-2005, 01:59 PM
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Biodiesel and Fuel additive?

OKay, on my next tank, i plan on filling up with b100 or b20 Biodiesel. i hope i can get B100. is there a problem with running biodiesel and a fuel additive, such as white bottle powerservice/dieselkleen? is that just overkill? thanks in advance.
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Old 12-17-2005, 05:24 PM
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you will need to run at least 10% petroleum diesel in order to get the DFA to blend with the Bio. However unless you are after the anti gelling agent it is just overkill. Actually the bio works much much much better then DFA. Just remember to keep a spare filter in your truck. After te first tank or two you might start to see white smoke. This is a tell tale sign to change the filter. Nice to see another BD user here too.
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Old 12-17-2005, 06:13 PM
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Also remember that BD clouds up at a much higher temperature than petro. I think it's too cold for you to run anything stronger than B20 right now. I like using the BD myself.
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Old 12-17-2005, 06:21 PM
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so you are saying that BD shouldnt be used in cold climates? our record low one morning was 6.5*F, our average low is 20-25*F. maybe i should stick the winter out with PS and #2.
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Old 12-17-2005, 06:29 PM
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It's my understanding that in the process of making bio, most of the glycerin (sp) is removed. If that's the case, why is the cloud point any higher than dino #2?

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Old 12-17-2005, 06:53 PM
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I don't have any personal experience with bio other than the one tankful that I have started running with.
I've read about it over on TDS.
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Old 12-17-2005, 07:44 PM
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Talking Cloud Point

[quote=cookie88]It's my understanding that in the process of making bio, most of the glycerin (sp) is removed. If that's the case, why is the cloud point any higher than dino #2?

Scott, If the biodiesel meets ASTM specs than ALL of the glycerin is removed.
All vegy oils have different cloud points. Cannola is higher than soy, palm oil is lower yet. It is just the nature of ALL oils. We are presently using B-80 with no cold start problems. It was 13 deg here this morning and my cummins started just fine. FABMANDELUX
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Old 12-17-2005, 10:13 PM
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Yes, the BD does have a higher clouding point then the Petro diesel (PD). However if you run B90 with the power service it will blend nicely and you will have no clouding or gelling issues then what the DFA states. Currently there are no additives that work with B100 to lower the gel/cloud points but with the 10% PD added they will mix just fine and the anti gel works great. You really should have no issues with this ratio. If you want to be a little more cautious you could run the B80 and you will be good to go.
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Old 12-18-2005, 10:41 AM
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[quote=fabmandelux]
Quote:
Originally Posted by cookie88
It's my understanding that in the process of making bio, most of the glycerin (sp) is removed. If that's the case, why is the cloud point any higher than dino #2?

Scott, If the biodiesel meets ASTM specs than ALL of the glycerin is removed.
All vegy oils have different cloud points. Cannola is higher than soy, palm oil is lower yet. It is just the nature of ALL oils. We are presently using B-80 with no cold start problems. It was 13 deg here this morning and my cummins started just fine. FABMANDELUX
Good info....thank you. So what veggy is typically used to make bio, and what is the lowest? Can a B100 be made that equals or betters the cold weather performance of DF-1?
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Old 12-18-2005, 12:15 PM
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Soy is usually used as the main stock for BD, because it is cheap to grow, readily grown locally (USA) is typically right in the middle as far as cloud/gel points. Yet yeilds a higher BTU then most oils. For example Rapseed or canola oil yeilds higher BTU's per lb then soy. However it has a higher clouding point, and cost upto 3 times as much to grow, produce and collect oil from the plant itself. Thus per lb is much higher in cost for the little benefit of a few more BTU's.

Honestly, algae is probably going to become the leader in eg oil production in the near future. Algae, grows faster then any other plant in the world, it grows by cellular division. It will continue to produce or grow at a compounding rate until either the food supply has run out or the container is full. 50% of each algae cell is oil. Thus a 1lb container of algae will produce 1/2 lb of oil compared to the soybean which can produce upto 1/3 is weight in oil. Given perfect soil, sunlight,fertilizer and water, oh and temp. algae has been shown to grow in salt water brine, freshwater, little sunlight, high temps,low temps etc. All it needs is water and some sunlight to grow. Therfore it can grow here in AZ, year round, using water run off or salty ground water and not using any farmers crop or public drinking water. a 1000 cubic foot pond can produce 20,000lbs of oil annually now to make math simple lets round a gallon oil up to 10 lbs. That is 2000 gallons of oil(fuel) a year, The average swimming pool in PHX is over 20,000cf. So now basically I could run my own personal truck on the algae grown in a bath tub.

Now I just have to build an algae oil processor. HMMMMMM
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Old 12-18-2005, 04:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fire Rooster
Soy is usually used as the main stock for BD, because it is cheap to grow, readily grown locally (USA) is typically right in the middle as far as cloud/gel points. Yet yeilds a higher BTU then most oils. For example Rapseed or canola oil yeilds higher BTU's per lb then soy. However it has a higher clouding point, and cost upto 3 times as much to grow, produce and collect oil from the plant itself. Thus per lb is much higher in cost for the little benefit of a few more BTU's.

Honestly, algae is probably going to become the leader in eg oil production in the near future. Algae, grows faster then any other plant in the world, it grows by cellular division. It will continue to produce or grow at a compounding rate until either the food supply has run out or the container is full. 50% of each algae cell is oil. Thus a 1lb container of algae will produce 1/2 lb of oil compared to the soybean which can produce upto 1/3 is weight in oil. Given perfect soil, sunlight,fertilizer and water, oh and temp. algae has been shown to grow in salt water brine, freshwater, little sunlight, high temps,low temps etc. All it needs is water and some sunlight to grow. Therfore it can grow here in AZ, year round, using water run off or salty ground water and not using any farmers crop or public drinking water. a 1000 cubic foot pond can produce 20,000lbs of oil annually now to make math simple lets round a gallon oil up to 10 lbs. That is 2000 gallons of oil(fuel) a year, The average swimming pool in PHX is over 20,000cf. So now basically I could run my own personal truck on the algae grown in a bath tub.

Now I just have to build an algae oil processor. HMMMMMM
Soy is the main source for biodiesel mainly because the National Biodiesel Board was funded by midwest soy farmers. This is slowly changing, Canola produces 120 gal/ acre of oil in my area, If irrigated as much as 200+ per acre. Soy will produce at best 37 gal/acr! How can it cost more to produce Canola oil than soil oil? The seed costs LESS than soy and the plant does not use as much fertilizer. In fact Canola "fixes" nitrogen in the soil, and is a very good rotational crop for grain crops.
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Old 12-18-2005, 04:57 PM
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I grow soys and add only replacement fertilizer when needed. Soybeans add nitrogen into the soil for the next crop to use at between 20 to 60 lbs of N per acre. Check out the cloud points of biodiesel at www.biodiesel.org and also check out the oem area.
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Old 12-18-2005, 05:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fabmandelux
Soy is the main source for biodiesel mainly because the National Biodiesel Board was funded by midwest soy farmers. This is slowly changing, Canola produces 120 gal/ acre of oil in my area, If irrigated as much as 200+ per acre. Soy will produce at best 37 gal/acr! How can it cost more to produce Canola oil than soil oil? The seed costs LESS than soy and the plant does not use as much fertilizer. In fact Canola "fixes" nitrogen in the soil, and is a very good rotational crop for grain crops.
Hey Slick,

Once again reread my post. Soy can grow in more places, in harsher climates, has a longer growth season, and as I said is MORE readily available due to locally grown( hence the farmers in midwest you stated). Therefore due to all of these factors it is cheaper to use. I did not state anything about oil production vs acre. However you are correct Canola is one of the leading oils in oil per acre. BUT the overall return vscrop ability is superseded by soys versatility. Honestly, Cocanut trees are one of the most useful plants in the world. they produce 48 currently used products from oil to food, plastics, gum etc. But guess what, they do not grow everywhere, nor would they have a long growth season in the midwest. Thus a larger cost to harvest it.
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Old 12-18-2005, 06:39 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Fire Rooster
Hey Slick,

Once again reread my post. Soy can grow in more places, in harsher climates, has a longer growth season, and as I said is MORE readily available due to locally grown( hence the farmers in midwest you stated). Therefore due to all of these factors it is cheaper to use. I did not state anything about oil production vs acre. However you are correct Canola is one of the leading oils in oil per acre. BUT the overall return vscrop ability is superseded by soys versatility. Honestly, Cocanut trees are one of the most useful plants in the world. they produce 48 currently used products from oil to food, plastics, gum etc. But guess what, they do not grow everywhere, nor would they have a long growth season in the midwest. Thus a larger cost to harvest it.
I am a farmer, we now farm over 1,000 acres. Soy is not a good crop here, from spokane wa, to northern cali, Wheat is king. The farmers in this area have been trying for 30 years to grow soy here, no deal. Canola however is grown here with great results, and in the wetter places can produce 2 crops per year. Since we grow it here, is that not "locally grown"?

Merry Christmas FABMANDELUX>
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Old 12-18-2005, 07:19 PM
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yes it it would be considered locally grown. For you. However there is more soy farm land and centerally located in the US. Thus making it MORE local to all. Also if you read the rest of my posts then you would see that Algae, will probably become the leading oil supplier for BD, because it will grow literally anywhere and produce much much higher yeilds then any other plant life we currently are using. I only answered the question from a generalized position of WHY soy is the #1 oil used in the ENTIRE US as a whole then any other oil. For you canola may be cheaper and local. What about the guy in nebraska? Soy is cheaper and more local to him. I live in AZ a joshua tree ( no relation to oil production just an example here) is only native to AZ. But they have some in Nevada. So would it be cosidered local to them? Probably not, but for me they are. My point being, canola is a still a great crop, however AS A WHOLE soy at this time is MORE readily available then any other oil.
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Old 12-18-2005, 07:19 PM
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