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Old 10-18-2005, 11:55 AM
Dino@his Dad's Dino@his Dad's is offline
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alcohol & corrosion test

Alright All, there is always at least some concern about corrosion when anyone wants to talk about about ethanol or E85 as a fuel. I don't think there will be any issue at all. But, in an attempt to silence to doubters who think this will be a problem, I have started my own albiet not exactly scientific test. I took an aluminum piston and its rings and have them soaking in about 2/3 of a gallon of E85. The cast piston is from a '67 390. I thought the aluminum would be the most suseptible to corrosion, so we'll test that first. If y'all can think of someting else I should dunk, let me know. The piston was measured at 709.7 grams, and 4.0504 inches. I'll soak it for at least a month and then pull and measure and weigh it. We'll also give it a good lookin' at to see if it has dissolved or pitted any. I fully expect nothing to happen, but we won't know until we try, right ? If'n I can figure out how, I will post a picture. Nothing like a good test to see what really is going to happen. DF, @ work ( sort of )
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Old 10-19-2005, 10:05 AM
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Originally Posted by Dino@his Dad's
Alright All, there is always at least some concern about corrosion when anyone wants to talk about about ethanol or E85 as a fuel. I don't think there will be any issue at all. But, in an attempt to silence to doubters who think this will be a problem, I have started my own albiet not exactly scientific test. I took an aluminum piston and its rings and have them soaking in about 2/3 of a gallon of E85. The cast piston is from a '67 390. I thought the aluminum would be the most suseptible to corrosion, so we'll test that first. If y'all can think of someting else I should dunk, let me know. The piston was measured at 709.7 grams, and 4.0504 inches. I'll soak it for at least a month and then pull and measure and weigh it. We'll also give it a good lookin' at to see if it has dissolved or pitted any. I fully expect nothing to happen, but we won't know until we try, right ? If'n I can figure out how, I will post a picture. Nothing like a good test to see what really is going to happen. DF, @ work ( sort of )
You should not see any differance; I'ts not the alcohol that's the problem, but the PRODUCTS of combustion that MAY cause corrosion. Long-term study's are not compleated yet.FABMANDELUX.
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Old 10-19-2005, 11:41 AM
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How are the products of combustion any different from gasoline? Is it just that there is more H2O in the exhaust?
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Old 10-19-2005, 07:07 PM
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I'd like to see some standard rubber fuel line tested, a standard fuel filter, some Holley carburetor gaskets, a power valve, a float, and an accelerator pump diaphram.

You wont notice any problems with the piston. It might come out a little cleaner, but that's it. We'll see if I'm right.

It's the rubber and plastic parts I'm curious about.

Last edited by rusty70f100; 10-19-2005 at 07:09 PM.
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Old 10-19-2005, 07:16 PM
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Thumbs up Right on the money!

Quote:
Originally Posted by EPNCSU2006
How are the products of combustion any different from gasoline? Is it just that there is more H2O in the exhaust?
You are dead on! Most ethanol has H2O in suspension, It is very hard to remove. Ethanol is also hydroscopic, it will absorb water from the air. It is this water that forms some nasty acids during combustion. FABMANDELUX.
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Old 10-21-2005, 12:12 PM
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corrosion testing

Fab, the water is removed from fuel ethanol with zeaolite, in a molecular seive. so, there isn't any water in it at that point. But how much water it will pull out of the air is an unknown at this point. Since most fuel tanks are sealed these days, I didn't think that would be a problem. I have read about aluminium nozzles having pitting problems on the fuel pumps. It would seem the ethanol that gets splashed on the nozzles keeps them very clean, but atmosheric moisture then causes some corrosion. The nozzle makers have been nickel plating them and they seem okay so far. I have wondered if we might have to nickel plate any of the carb body or throttle blades or something for similar issues. As to water in the exhaust, I think it is hot enough when it exits there won't be an issue. But it is worth keeping an eye on. There are also acetaldehydes in the exhaust of an alky burner. Thats what makes the exhaust of TAD or TAF smell 'fruity'. Thats another thing to look at when one of us starts running this everyday. Rusty, how about I drop a complete 600 holley in the stuff and we'll watch that. I'll get some fuel line and a filter, and drop that in too. I was thinking a a couple of bearings as well, and maybe a connecting rod and a valve to go with. DF, @ his Work
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Old 10-21-2005, 09:09 PM
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Talking

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Originally Posted by Dino@his Dad's
Fab, the water is removed from fuel ethanol with zeaolite, in a molecular seive. so, there isn't any water in it at that point. But how much water it will pull out of the air is an unknown at this point. Since most fuel tanks are sealed these days, I didn't think that would be a problem. I have read about aluminium nozzles having pitting problems on the fuel pumps. It would seem the ethanol that gets splashed on the nozzles keeps them very clean, but atmosheric moisture then causes some corrosion. The nozzle makers have been nickel plating them and they seem okay so far. I have wondered if we might have to nickel plate any of the carb body or throttle blades or something for similar issues. As to water in the exhaust, I think it is hot enough when it exits there won't be an issue. But it is worth keeping an eye on. There are also acetaldehydes in the exhaust of an alky burner. Thats what makes the exhaust of TAD or TAF smell 'fruity'. Thats another thing to look at when one of us starts running this everyday. Rusty, how about I drop a complete 600 holley in the stuff and we'll watch that. I'll get some fuel line and a filter, and drop that in too. I was thinking a a couple of bearings as well, and maybe a connecting rod and a valve to go with. DF, @ his Work

Two points; #1 You are right about the zeolite finishing the ethanol to 100 percent. According to the study's I've seen, the issue is what happens in the transfer from the still to the end user. Everytime the product is moved frpm tank to tank there is an increase in moisture content.


#2 The issue with is not with moisture in the exhaust, but the formation of ACIDS during combustion, but this may be controlled by additives. So far the long-range test's have not been completed.........FABMANDELUX.
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Old 11-25-2005, 10:03 PM
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A few points:

All combustion creates H2O and CO2
H2O and CO2 combine to create carbonic acid
Carbonic acid is weak acid rain; always been around, always will.

Impurities in combustion creates problems
Nitrogen leads to nitric acid
Sulfer leads to sulfuric acid
Now THAT is the good stuff!

Unbranched carbon chains lead to incomplete combustion
2,2,4 trimethylpentane is GOLD to refineries ($300.00/gal)
Ethanol burns nearly completely in just the atmosphere

Aluminum is one of the most reactive metals; more so than iron
If you scratch a piece of foil, the oxide is formed before you finish scratching!


The alcohol in the water bath will actually prevent any corrosion form forming by delaying the oxygen from reaching the metal. Most guys keep their razors in vodka to keep them sharper longer.

The concern of oxidation comes from the reaction intermediates mixing with the nitric oxides in addition to the ample kinetic energy.

The best way to test any part of this equation is to try it in equal motors.

Mike
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Old 11-26-2005, 10:36 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EPNCSU2006
How are the products of combustion any different from gasoline? Is it just that there is more H2O in the exhaust?
Yes as there is more water in the fuel by molecular design and it readily absorbs more water too.
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Old 12-07-2005, 09:48 AM
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'equal motors'

Mike, I like the testing part, but I don't know if equal motors is the right way to go. Recent tests always seem to include two engines intended for gasoline. That means the gasoline engine always wins on miles per liquid gallon. if you were to do the same test with a pair of engines that were each optimized for the fuel being used, or at least closer to what ethanol likes as a fuel, the ethanol wins every time. These tests actually began in the early 1900s, like 1902-1906. Our gov't tested ethanol in submarine engines in the teens and twentys, and the farm bureau tested it in tractors in the mid to late thirtys. Ethanol wins every time. the reason petroleum fuels dominate the transportation fuel market have nothing to do with petro being 'better', it isn't. Petro fuels dominate because of politics and oil industry hegemony. For some intesresting reading, look up the results of the 'Ethanol Vehicle Challenge'. In the EVC, groups of colledge students were given a new truck and told to modify it for ethanol use. The colleges that win the competetion always got better miles per gallon on ethanol than the original equipment truck got on gasoline. When you consider that ethanol has only 2/3rds the btus per gallon of gasoline, that is a huge increase in thermal efficeincy. The tech for ethanol already exists, has for over 100 years, the american petroleum institute just hoped you wouldn't find out about it. Now that oil is becoming more exspensive, and anyone can learn anything on the internet, the knowledge is becoming more widely known. Sorry about that API. DF@ work, sort of
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Old 12-07-2005, 07:26 PM
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Energy = Energy

You can compare fuels based on energy content, then compare them on price per energy content.

Start with this thread:
http://www.ford-trucks.com/forums/sh...d.php?t=389447

or

Quote:
Select a fuel and units on both sides of the calculator and enter a quantity on the left side:

http://www.shec-labs.com/calc/fuel_e...quivalence.php

Examples:
1 gallon of gasoline = 24 gallons of hydrogen at 150 bar = 1.6 gallons of Ethanol.

They do not have a listing for E85.

I tested the calculator and it works with Mozilla and IE.
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Last edited by Torque1st; 12-07-2005 at 07:31 PM.
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Old 12-30-2005, 09:00 PM
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Watching some of those alcohol dragsters is an inspiration.

I'm campaigning to get US automakers to shift over to all alcohol fuel and vegatable oils for diesels. That way we can tell OPEC to get lost. Also help to with our trade imbalance and it would create a massive boom in our farming industry. Why not?
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Old 12-31-2005, 02:18 PM
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still soakin'

Just thought I would tell y'all that the piston and it's rings and pin are still soaking. Doesn't look like much is happening, but that was what I expected. I have been doing a lot of reading however, and feel that the pistons and other engine parts won't really be any problem. But because there is always some moisture in the fuel ( and in the air ), carb and the fuel tank might be a bigger concern. Lots of carbs have aluminium bodies- like my holleys- and will probably need to be anodized or something. Some carbs have pot metal castings that I don't think will like ethanol at all. but I don't know if they can be painted or plated or what to protect them. And what about my TQ's polycarbonate body ? how will that hold up ? I really have no idea. I am also wondering what to do about my fuel tanks....they are aluminium tanks from a freightliner, 150 gallons each. As the fuel sits in the tank, it will try to absorb corrosion causing moisture from the air. The tank caps are vented, but if I closed the vents, the air couldn't get in. But then fuel wouldn't want to flow out either. I wonder if I should vent the tank like a more modern truck has ( I have a pair of '71s and a '79 ) and let the air flow in after it goes though a Zeolite fliter can ? The Zeolite would have to be dried out every so often, but if it kept the fuel anyhydrous, so what ? thoughts ?........DF, @ his Dad's house
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Old 12-31-2005, 02:18 PM
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