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  #1  
Old 09-03-2005, 03:38 PM
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Dieseldan7.3 Dieseldan7.3 is offline
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Bio-diesel vs. WVO

i watched a tv show the other day and it was all about making biodiesel. The guy just whipped up a batch in a thousand dollar system of tanks and hoses and dumped it strait in his Cummins.
Someone on this site said if you run more than 20% bio diesel that it will eat up rubber parts like the o-rings on the injectors.
The tv dude didnt even mess with the truck, just dumped in some brown fuel and was doin burnouts 5 minutes later.
It was estimated that making biodiesel cost about 70 cents a gallon using the lye and other junk he was using.

If i decided to make biodiesel instead of converting to run on vegetable oil i could technically do it without touching my truck correct?
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Old 09-03-2005, 04:47 PM
Dave Barbieri Dave Barbieri is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dieseldan7.3
If i decided to make biodiesel instead of converting to run on vegetable oil i could technically do it without touching my truck correct?
Yup. It burns just like petro-diesel. The show was correct - it does attack parts made of natural rubber. Just like oxygenated gas did when it was first introduced. Modern fuel systems (stuff made after the late 80's) don't use natural rubber; they use synthetic compounds for seals and hoses that aren't affected. Biodiesel burns much cleaner - less smoke and lower emission levels, as well as a much milder smell. Because of its lower BTU rating, it also puts out less power (7%) and gets slightly lower fuel mileage. Since pure biodiesel gels at higher temps than petrodiesel, you'll need to dilute it during the winter time; most folks cut it with about 20% petrodiesel.

I'm trying to decide whether to go biodiesel or SVO/WVO. The veggie oil thing is VERY attractive since it doesn't require a lot of cooking and chemistry. You basically carry your system on your back (ie: your truck carries all the stuff it needs to store and run the fuel.) However, the lack of high mileage reports on SVO/WVO worries me. Most of the folks who use this stuff have less than 60,000 miles on their conversions. I'd REALLY like to know what happens to long term (150,000 miles) pump life. With biodiesel, this isn't a problem. In fact, the lubricity is higher with bioD than petroD.
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  #3  
Old 09-03-2005, 08:33 PM
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I was on one of the other diesel sites a couple of weeks ago reading about WVO in a truck that was getting Blackstone reports on the oil done on.

The report was showing ring errosion and the oil was getting stringy from the glycerin that made it past the rings.

I think WVO is a pay me now or pay me later kind of thing. Yes you will save money now, but in the end it is still gonna cost you to rebuild the engine before you should have to.
Also WVO is still untaxed fuel that you can be busted for running and is easy to detect just like red fuel is.
I also do not think any of the IDI motors had seals that are biodiesel proof if you run high percentages.
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  #4  
Old 09-03-2005, 09:45 PM
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I switched to biodiesel a few years back - running B100 (100% biodiesel), 'coz thats all I could find locally. The guy at the station recommended I run the biodiesel for a few tank-fulls, and then do a rebuild on my fuel system 'coz it tends to clean stuff out, but also attacks any weak points. Of course, I ignored his advice, and then had to get my truck towed six months later when one of my return lines blew! ;>

Still, I highly recommend biodiesel, just make sure your fuel system, especially any rubber parts, are up to scratch.

Chris.
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Old 09-03-2005, 09:56 PM
Spaznaut Spaznaut is offline
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Whats the waste after making a batch of bio diesel and how do you dispose of it?
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  #6  
Old 09-03-2005, 10:22 PM
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ctann what truck do you have?

Going to the User CP and listing your truck info in the signature area makes it easy for us to see what you have.
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  #7  
Old 09-04-2005, 01:55 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Sponaugle
ctann what truck do you have?

Going to the User CP and listing your truck info in the signature area makes it easy for us to see what you have.
Done. She's a 1990 F250, 4x4 IDI, LWB.

Chris.
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  #8  
Old 09-04-2005, 09:29 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Sponaugle
I think WVO is a pay me now or pay me later kind of thing. Yes you will save money now, but in the end it is still gonna cost you to rebuild the engine before you should have to.
Yeah, this worry has been lurking in the back of my mind for a while. Without some serious modifications (the addition of heat and chemical 'thinners'), I think there's a very real possibility of long term damage to the pump and injectors, as well as to the engine. Keep in mind that most folks only keep a car 3 - 4 years. Those people buying diesels now are doing so for the super fuel mileage. The majority have no intention of keeping the car for 15 years or 300,000 miles. As I mentioned before, there are TONS of testimonials from folks with 4,000 - 25,000 miles on a grease conversion, but 200,000 mile success stories have been difficult to find. I came across one story from a guy who did his conversion six years ago. Problem is, he only has about 32,000 miles on the car! Between commuting, family business, and trips to OKC to check on Mom and Dad, I drove 52,000 miles last year! So his 'success' would only last me about seven months. That's a gamble. Grease may well be a viable option for me; I just don't have enough info to justify the expense right now. Here's a webpage about the TDI issue.

http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_TDI.html

Some folks feel that since British/European TDI's have logged over a million miles on grease, this is no longer an issue. As before, I worry that we're dealing with lots of low mileage cars, instead of four or five high mileage cars. "There are lies, damn lies, and statistics." Read for yourself and decide.

Spaznaut, the 'waste' is glycerin and soap. After brewing a batch of biodiesel, it's allowed to sit and settle. Three different, distinct layers develop. The lowest layer is a clear, dark browm liquid (think strong tea) - glycerin. The next layer is (hopefully) pretty thin and cream/tan-colored - soap. The last layer (by far the largest) is dark golden - biodiesel. 'Waste' is not real accurate. If you're willing to expend a little more effort, you can turn it into money. The glycerin can be sold to custom soapmakers or put on a compost pile (it breaks down in 4-6 weeks). The soap can be used, sold or thrown out. You know what to do with the bioD.
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  #9  
Old 09-04-2005, 10:16 AM
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I just replaced my injectors and return lines with ones from Shopdiesel.com
Would these be natural rubber o-rings and lines or would they be some sort of synthetic nylon since it is new.

What else would you need to replace as far as rubber parts goes? My ip is also new.
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  #10  
Old 09-04-2005, 11:20 AM
Dave Barbieri Dave Barbieri is offline
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DieselDan - As Dave S pointed out earlier, our IDI motors came with lines that didn't tolerate biodiesel real well. Can you say 'Water Balloon'? To determine if your lines will handle BD, contact Shopdiesel. Tell them you'll be running biodiesel (in whatever percentage you're planning on using) and ask them if their lines will handle it. I would think that the kit is made of current-technology material, and therefore pretty bullet-proof. But ask to be sure. Stuck by the side of the road is a bad place to be.

Since my truck is 20 years old, the rubber stuff is not only old tech, but also cracking and rotting. I'm dropping each tank and replacing ALL flexible fuel lines with polyvinyl lines. In the past, I've found this stuff under the trade name 'Tygon'. It's used in hospitals to transport fluids you DON'T want in the environment. Definitely stout stuff. Come to find out, it's also a favorite for chain saws and go-carts. It's flexible, strong and can withstand all kinds of weird fuels. I bought mine at the local feed store, and used it on both of my diesel Rabbits and my TD Jetta. Great stuff, easy to find, and cheaper than the stock line. Go figure.
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  #11  
Old 09-04-2005, 05:45 PM
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Thanks ctann.

My 86 has rubber lines in the tank and in the fuel lines to the lift pump, there are also rubber o rings at every connection in those lines.

Then there is the diaphram in the lift pump.

More rubber O rings in the filter assembly.

Rubber O rings in the IP.

Rubber return lines and O rings on the injectors.

Not sure what is in the injectors, but my money goes for rubber.

That is a lot of stuff to change to run biodiesel over 20 percent.

Commercially made biodiesel is an hours drive from my house and costs about 75 cents more than regular diesel, but the margin is closing fast with the current prices.

From what I have read on this, biodiesel looks like the better of the alternate fuels for our trucks. After converting all the rubber stuff for synthetic I believe all other issues are non existant or very easily dealt with. If you read closely I believe the are even several other advantages to biodiesel over petro other than the emissions.

The biggest plus for biodiesel is the money would all stay in the USA and give the farmers a good cash crop. No money in the pockets of the Middle East either, so they could all drink their oil. As long as the powers that be are oil people I do not see this technology being advanced nearly as fast as it should be.

Boy that would be a bad thing, taking the power and money out of the oil peoples pocket and putting it in the farmers pocket, maybe that would bring about some long overdue changes in this country.

I turn my soap box over to the next person now.
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  #12  
Old 09-05-2005, 12:14 PM
Dave Barbieri Dave Barbieri is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Sponaugle
I turn my soap box over to the next person now.
*borrowing Dave's now-vacant soap box*

Dang Bubba! You're depriving some poor folks the life style to which they've become accustomed!

OK, as I see it, there are some serious advantages to our country's economy:

* A definite economic boost to our farmers in the mid-west (and elsewhere). These folks would become instrumental in modern-day energy policy.

* The resource necessary to produce the fuel is renewable every single year. Not only can we grow what we need, but other countries report that when used in a four-year crop rotation cycle, canola (rape seed) provides tremendous benefits to soil fertility.

* Biodiesel relies on a resource whose market is fairly stable and not subject to political power plays halfway around the globe.

* Particulate and hydrocarbon emissions are cut by over 60%. Our trucks burn cleaner and smell nicer.

* The fuel itself is less toxic than table salt. (Seriously!) If spilled on the ground, there is minimal environmental impact. For a vastly simplified example of this, take a bottle of wesson oil, go out in your back yard and pour some on the ground. Come back tomorrow and check the grass. Come back the next day and check again. And the next day. And the next day. You get the point.

Brewing my own bioD at home allows me to step outside the energy loop. With the driving I do, my current fuel usage is around 200 gal/month. I can spend one weekend a month and set up enough fuel to last the month. As my experience and expertise grow, I can become even more productive. And in doing so, I'm using resources that are readily available, while freeing up resources that are becoming increasingly rare and expensive. I'm a hero. And the butt-end of my truck smells nice.

*returning the now-vacant soap box*
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  #13  
Old 09-08-2005, 11:09 PM
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i looked under my truck and I have those hard plastic lines from the tank and then it goes to steel. my 86 f150 is the same way. Wouldnt new ips and lift pumps have synthetic seals?
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Old 09-09-2005, 11:57 PM
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Dave in OKC,
I've been hiding for a while! Look like you've done your homework on alt. fuel for these beast. I'm ready to bring a load of corn down for your processing plant! How much storage do you have?

How's the tach working? Have any troubles with the wiring?

Why was it, 2 months ago diesel was 20 cents a gallon higher then regular gas and now is 20 cents cheaper? Off road was $2.29 a week ago. What's fertilizer cost going to be in the spring? What's it going to cost to heat our homes this winter?

I got my hydraulic bale mover completed and it works fine. But having a long wheel base with a tool box across the bed sure impacts visability when the spike is down.
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Old 09-10-2005, 09:11 PM
Dave Barbieri Dave Barbieri is offline
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Hi Len! Welcome back!! First of all, thanks again for all the help with the tach. You went to a lot of trouble with the packing and the instructions. I've got it installed now - it looks GREAT in the dash. Course, I don't have it wired up yet; haven't had the time. I live just east of Tyler (east TX) and most of my weekends are spent in OKC with Mom and Dad. However, this weekend I'm actually at home and able to take care of some stuff on the truck. Pretty cool!

I'm gearing up for bioD production and use. My preparations are in two areas: truck and shop. For the shop, I need a 50 gallon water heater, two open-top 55 gallon drums (washer & dryer), and some plumbing and piping. This is what I'll be building:

http://www.biodieselcommunity.org/appleseedprocessor/

Now I need to find a source for vegetable oil. I'll be using about 150 gallons each month to generate about 150 gallons of bioD. Speaking of corn, corn oil is a great choice for this process. I guess we could dump your corn into a bunch of clean trash cans and stomp around in our bare feet. Kinda like what they did with grapes in the 'old country'. *grin* I plan to start with virgin veggie oil to get used to the process, then switch to waste oil from area restaurants. That'll drop my fuel costs to well under $1 a gallon.

To prep the truck, I'm replacing the stock 19 gallon aft tank with a 38 gallon version. So far, it's been pretty straightforward. I'll finish the install tomorrow after church. With that done, I'll have approx 60 gallons of fuel on board. That'll give me a range of around 1,000 miles - enough to drive to OKC, spend three or four days running errands, and return home with fuel left over. With the old tank out of the way, I was able to check the condition of the fuel lines. Mine are plastic, so no sweat about the methanol in bioD softening the material. As far as the pump is concerned, I'll check with the pump shop that did the rebuild to make sure that the innards are bioD compatible. Once I convert over, I'll take the truck to the International Dealer in Tyler to get the timing set. The cetane rating on bioD is different from petroD. Since this dealership uses the luminosity probe (instead of the pulse generator), they can see the actual ignition sequence and set the timing accordingly.

Here in Texas, we get a tax waiver for the first 400 gallons of bioD. That's about three month's worth of fuel for me. After that, my accountant deals with it. Dave Sponaugle (The Voice Of IDI Diesel) has provided some pretty grim horror stories about what happens when people try to save a few bucks by cheating the tax folks. It ain't pretty. My goal is to be squeeky-clean: environmentally, mechanically and fiscally.

Tomorrow, I pick up the water heater and start setting up. I'll keep ya posted about the progress!
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Old 09-10-2005, 09:11 PM
 
 
 
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