Go Back   Ford Truck Enthusiasts Forums > Diesel > Bio-diesel, Propane & Alternative Diesel Engine Fuels
Sign in using an external account
Register Forgot Password?


Welcome to Ford-Trucks Forums!
Welcome to Ford-Trucks.com.

You are currently viewing our forums as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join the Ford-Trucks Forums community today!





 
Reply
 
 
 
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread
  #1  
Old 07-19-2005, 09:57 PM
MDB MDB is offline
Senior User
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Northern IN
Posts: 216
MDB is starting off with a positive reputation.
Cornell U says biodiesel costs aren't worth it

Just saw this in this mornings newspaper, so decided to look it up. http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/...ostly.ssl.html

Basically, according to their research, ethonal, biodiesel, etc, aren't worth the cost and energy to produce. Of course, they are considering all costs from planting the soybeans to when the biodiesel is ready to use. According to their figures, it costs 28% more energy to get from start to finish then the final energy value of the biodiesel product. And sunflower oil is much, much worse, at 118% more energy.

Many farmers in the midwest are investing in biodiesel and ethonal plants. If Cornell's figures are correct, I suspect that these farmers are going to get burned and are going lose money. Currently, ethonal may be justifiable, only because of the Feds subsidize it to the tune of $3,000,000,000 annually with taxpayers money. But it looks like taxpayers are getting shafted again.

25 years ago, when I was on the farm, our neighbor spent a ton of money to build his own ethonal plant. He also lost a TON of money, because it didn't take him long to figure out that he was burning more $'s of propane to heat the mash then the value of the ethonal he was producing. I don't think he even operated it for six months, and ended up tearing everything out and using the building for farm storage purposes.

Hmm, so what ARE we going to do about our dependency on Middle Eastern oil?
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 07-19-2005, 10:07 PM
Kwikkordead's Avatar
Kwikkordead Kwikkordead is offline
Post Fiend
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: North Seattle, WA.
Posts: 22,220
Kwikkordead has a superb reputationKwikkordead has a superb reputationKwikkordead has a superb reputationKwikkordead has a superb reputationKwikkordead has a superb reputationKwikkordead has a superb reputationKwikkordead has a superb reputationKwikkordead has a superb reputationKwikkordead has a superb reputationKwikkordead has a superb reputationKwikkordead has a superb reputation
http://www.facebook.com/http://facebook.com/Kwikkordead#!/Kwikkordead
Finally someone who looked at ALL the facts. The biodiesel crowd needs to know that the fertilizer required to grow the crops comes from petroleum products. So much for foriegn oil independence.
I'll buy bio-d when the price is close to the same as petro-d. Or at least try and run b-10 or 20 when the new ultra low sulfur diesel is introduced. The fuel is pretty dry at that point and the injectors need to be lubricated with something. Bio-d does a great job of that.
__________________
Dan
1999 F550 4x4 ZF6 pulling a Cedar Creek 36RLTS. Lotta mods.
1999 VW Jetta TDI 5speed stick, Titan 520's, CCV, EGR, CAT.
2000 VW Passat 1.8t Tiptronic. ZZOOOOOMMMM!!!
You cannot explain or explain away the power of God.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 07-19-2005, 10:14 PM
johnny8's Avatar
johnny8 johnny8 is offline
Postmaster
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 2,854
johnny8 is starting off with a positive reputation.
i don't claim to be an expert on this... but i have my doubts about the validity of these claims.... the way the market works is that as things become produced in greater quantity the relative cost per unit comes down... so... what may start off costing $2.50 a gallon to make may eventually only cost $1.00 to make... or less... it will depend on market conditions... i know you can make vegtable oil CHEAP, why should biodiesel be any different... as production is increased the cost per unit always comes down... the ONLY reason the prices for oil KEEP spiking is volitility in the market... and the oil companies take FULL advantage of EACH spike... i will read that article and then see if there is anything intelligent i can add to this conversation...
__________________
2002 F350 7.3 Auto 4x4 SD SRW SB
46637 "kwik wix" filter mod
Predator tuner
sonnax kit
walker btm
wastgate mod
dipricol gauges
tru-cool tranny cooler
superior compressor wheel
dual valve boost fooler
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 07-19-2005, 10:17 PM
clux's Avatar
clux clux is online now
ain't wrapped tight
 
Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Carhenge
Posts: 10,297
clux has a superb reputationclux has a superb reputationclux has a superb reputationclux has a superb reputationclux has a superb reputationclux has a superb reputationclux has a superb reputationclux has a superb reputationclux has a superb reputationclux has a superb reputationclux has a superb reputation
The author, David Pimentel, is the same guy who also concluded (among other things) that gasoline takes more energy to produce than it generates, and corn-fed cow flatulence was a significant contributer to green house gasses. The authors only closely scrutinized corn, tropical wood, and sugarcane production systems. If I understand the paper (it's pretty dry reading) they actually concluded that ehtanol production from sugarcane (what Brazil does) was sustainable and had a net positive energy production. Corn and wood is what they really hammered on. Seemed to me that he was lobbying for federal money to go into solar cell research rather than agriculture for whatever reason.

There has recently been a new bacteria that produces a higher ethanol yeild from grain straw than is conventionlly produced from corn grain,uses the by products to power the ethanol plant, and can cogenerate electricity. Sounds extremely encouraging for ethonol if it can be brought into production, and hopefully will quiet detractors like Mr. Pimentel.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 07-19-2005, 10:25 PM
johnny8's Avatar
johnny8 johnny8 is offline
Postmaster
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 2,854
johnny8 is starting off with a positive reputation.
i don't want to sound like a "conspiracy theory" guy.. but clux is right...this guy has an agenda and he is using this newspaper forum to try and influence people to believe his opinion...
__________________
2002 F350 7.3 Auto 4x4 SD SRW SB
46637 "kwik wix" filter mod
Predator tuner
sonnax kit
walker btm
wastgate mod
dipricol gauges
tru-cool tranny cooler
superior compressor wheel
dual valve boost fooler
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 07-19-2005, 10:32 PM
77hiboyboy's Avatar
77hiboyboy 77hiboyboy is offline
Posting Guru
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: The Great Plains
Posts: 1,054
77hiboyboy is starting off with a positive reputation.
Is ethanol really worth it?? maybe along a river, but out in my part of the world, where things are dry, I don't see it. Look how many gallons of water it takes to make one gallon of ethanol, but yet they are pushing, and pushing for more ethanol plants. Will it be pushed if the price of corn and distillers grains skyrocket? I doubt it.
__________________
99 Cobra
DOHC 4.6 5 Speed "not stock"
00 f-250 4x4 PSD 6-speed. "not stock"
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 07-19-2005, 10:34 PM
MobeyDick MobeyDick is offline
Posting Guru
 
Join Date: Mar 2003
Posts: 1,517
MobeyDick is starting off with a positive reputation.
Looking at all the facts!! I think not!! Lets say his cost for Bio-Diesel are correct. I'll put $100.00 to $1.00 that the cost of Diesel made from Petroleum is not stated correctly. Like the 500 billion $$$ we have spent in Iraq over the last 2 1/2 years. Or the 500 Billion we spent in the same place in 1991!! Or the cost of cleaning up the residue from petroleum over the last century!! The sooner we change the type of fuel we use the lower that cost will be!!
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 07-19-2005, 10:37 PM
cangim's Avatar
cangim cangim is offline
Postmaster
 
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Utah County, UT
Posts: 2,988
cangim is gaining momentum as a positive member of FTE.cangim is gaining momentum as a positive member of FTE.
As stated before, longer it is produced and higher quantity will eventually drive the price down. Problem is until it is as cheap or cheaper than dino fuel, many like myself will not buy.

Second, if you want to prove something wrong, you can find fault in anything.
__________________
Wishin I was still camping somewhere....
-Mike
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 07-19-2005, 10:38 PM
johnny8's Avatar
johnny8 johnny8 is offline
Postmaster
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 2,854
johnny8 is starting off with a positive reputation.
mobey dick makes a couple of valid points... what i don't understand is... where are the treehuggers..? doesn't a diesel running on bio make a lot less polution..? that was my understanding... am i wrong on that..?
__________________
2002 F350 7.3 Auto 4x4 SD SRW SB
46637 "kwik wix" filter mod
Predator tuner
sonnax kit
walker btm
wastgate mod
dipricol gauges
tru-cool tranny cooler
superior compressor wheel
dual valve boost fooler
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 07-19-2005, 10:55 PM
Kwikkordead's Avatar
Kwikkordead Kwikkordead is offline
Post Fiend
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: North Seattle, WA.
Posts: 22,220
Kwikkordead has a superb reputationKwikkordead has a superb reputationKwikkordead has a superb reputationKwikkordead has a superb reputationKwikkordead has a superb reputationKwikkordead has a superb reputationKwikkordead has a superb reputationKwikkordead has a superb reputationKwikkordead has a superb reputationKwikkordead has a superb reputationKwikkordead has a superb reputation
http://www.facebook.com/http://facebook.com/Kwikkordead#!/Kwikkordead
Quote:
Originally Posted by johnny8
mobey dick makes a couple of valid points... what i don't understand is... where are the treehuggers..? doesn't a diesel running on bio make a lot less polution..? that was my understanding... am i wrong on that..?
It's about the same. One pollutant is up the other is down in comparison. I forget which.
__________________
Dan
1999 F550 4x4 ZF6 pulling a Cedar Creek 36RLTS. Lotta mods.
1999 VW Jetta TDI 5speed stick, Titan 520's, CCV, EGR, CAT.
2000 VW Passat 1.8t Tiptronic. ZZOOOOOMMMM!!!
You cannot explain or explain away the power of God.
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 07-19-2005, 11:26 PM
Max1775's Avatar
Max1775 Max1775 is offline
Elder User
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Helotes, Texas
Posts: 824
Max1775 is starting off with a positive reputation.
Ahh, the epic battle! Why not just go to cold -fusion and never look back? We are all doomed to reap the sour rewards of our misguided notions. alas, poor Horatio...

Sorry got real confused there for a moment... C'mon guys, economy driven by gov't, gov't driven by economy... Any questions? Thank GOD there are good honest Americans like us to pay the way for the rest of the Saps!

Max
__________________
97 F250 PSD, 3.55 ls, 4" exhaust, K&N FIPK, Autometer gauges, DP Tuner PCM, Propane Injection, STS Tranny, KB audio, and more...
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 07-19-2005, 11:48 PM
Kwikkordead's Avatar
Kwikkordead Kwikkordead is offline
Post Fiend
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: North Seattle, WA.
Posts: 22,220
Kwikkordead has a superb reputationKwikkordead has a superb reputationKwikkordead has a superb reputationKwikkordead has a superb reputationKwikkordead has a superb reputationKwikkordead has a superb reputationKwikkordead has a superb reputationKwikkordead has a superb reputationKwikkordead has a superb reputationKwikkordead has a superb reputationKwikkordead has a superb reputation
http://www.facebook.com/http://facebook.com/Kwikkordead#!/Kwikkordead
Quote:
Originally Posted by MDB
Hmm, so what ARE we going to do about our dependency on Middle Eastern oil?
This is kind of "way out there" but several people claim to have working prototypes. I've posted it before, and most people have been skeptical, but the flip side is the people developing it say that they drove cross country with using any fuel whatsoever. You be the judge.
IMO if this works it's the next "big thing". But it's unreliable at best right now.
http://energy21.freeservers.com/as101.htm
__________________
Dan
1999 F550 4x4 ZF6 pulling a Cedar Creek 36RLTS. Lotta mods.
1999 VW Jetta TDI 5speed stick, Titan 520's, CCV, EGR, CAT.
2000 VW Passat 1.8t Tiptronic. ZZOOOOOMMMM!!!
You cannot explain or explain away the power of God.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 07-19-2005, 11:56 PM
Max1775's Avatar
Max1775 Max1775 is offline
Elder User
 
Join Date: Sep 2004
Location: Helotes, Texas
Posts: 824
Max1775 is starting off with a positive reputation.
Hmm Kwik, no fuel? I agree, definitely would be the next big thing. Keep me posted if you hear anything new.

Max
__________________
97 F250 PSD, 3.55 ls, 4" exhaust, K&N FIPK, Autometer gauges, DP Tuner PCM, Propane Injection, STS Tranny, KB audio, and more...
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 07-20-2005, 01:40 AM
Phydeaux88's Avatar
Phydeaux88 Phydeaux88 is offline
Posting Guru
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: South Texas Coast
Posts: 1,569
Phydeaux88 is gaining momentum as a positive member of FTE.Phydeaux88 is gaining momentum as a positive member of FTE.
To get into the alternate fuel source argument I'd like to make two points.

1. The article assumes the use of virgin vegetable oil. When used oil is factored in the production cost of the oil drops because the oil would have been produced anyway. Its sorta like recycling aluminum cans, it keeps the price af aluminum down.

2. There is an even more attractive and proven source of diesel fuel. Some time ago the South Africans developed a process for turning methane (natural gas) into diesel.
The end product is free of contaminants and thus significantly less polluting. With Oil at $25 per barrel this process could not compete but with oil at current prices it may become a very viable source. The USA has proven reserves of natural gas to last 200 years.
__________________
2006 F350 4X4 Crew Cab King Ranch edition strictly factory, for now.
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 07-20-2005, 04:24 AM
johnny8's Avatar
johnny8 johnny8 is offline
Postmaster
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: New Hampshire
Posts: 2,854
johnny8 is starting off with a positive reputation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kwikkordead
It's about the same. One pollutant is up the other is down in comparison. I forget which.
ahh... well... i would think folks would want this just to get rid of the smell that diesels make... personally i LIKE the idea of a fuel that helps my psd run smoother... last longer... run cleaner.. and it lubes the fuel system better.. but.. i am taking people at their word that this is the case as i haven't had a chance to run it yet... has anyone in here run bio..? if so.. what did you run, what did it cost, and what where the differences you noticed if any..?
__________________
2002 F350 7.3 Auto 4x4 SD SRW SB
46637 "kwik wix" filter mod
Predator tuner
sonnax kit
walker btm
wastgate mod
dipricol gauges
tru-cool tranny cooler
superior compressor wheel
dual valve boost fooler
Reply With Quote
Old 07-20-2005, 04:24 AM
 
 
 
Reply

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Good Deal? fabmandelux Bio-diesel, Propane & Alternative Diesel Engine Fuels 3 04-17-2011 06:59 PM
Other benefits of biofuels eigenvector Alternative Fuels, Hybrids & Mileage 6 10-26-2006 11:06 AM
New Project fabmandelux Bio-diesel, Propane & Alternative Diesel Engine Fuels 17 06-13-2006 09:47 PM
Interesting Bio news F2504x4 Bio-diesel, Propane & Alternative Diesel Engine Fuels 2 12-01-2005 07:58 PM


Go Back   Ford Truck Enthusiasts Forums > Diesel > Bio-diesel, Propane & Alternative Diesel Engine Fuels

Tags
bio, diesel, truck, worth

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On

Forum Jump



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:14 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7 AC1
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Advertising - Terms of Use - Privacy Statement - Jobs
This forum is owned and operated by Internet Brands, Inc., a Delaware corporation. It is not authorized or endorsed by the Ford Motor Company and is not affiliated with the Ford Motor Company or its related companies in any way. FordŽ is a registered trademark of the Ford Motor Company.

vbulletin Admin Backup