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  #1  
Old 06-21-2005, 04:58 PM
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Dieseldan7.3 Dieseldan7.3 is offline
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Propane injection on NA 7.3 = 0-60 in 9 secs!

last night I got the last part for my 'pane injection. Did a set up like that ziggsters guys without the oil pressure part and it comes on just above half throttle. I must have too much pane goin to it becuase it blows more black smoke than cummins at the truck pulls. Not satisfactory but I got a smaller "injector" with less holes and I will see if that helps. 0-60 mph test went from 12 seconds to 9 seconds shifting through 4 of the 5 gears. Hopefully I can get it tweaked so it runs clean and has a little more power.
I will try getting the pics posted in my gallery by tonight.
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1994 F250 xlt lariat, 7.3 turbodiesel 5speed, 4x4, pyro and boost, 0-60 in 11 seconds,33" BF GOODIES, K+N, 3.55s, 5th wheel, Pioneer sound system, 1/2 turn on ip,soon to be 5" turnouts.
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Old 06-21-2005, 08:07 PM
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Thats impressive... I want propane now...
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Old 06-21-2005, 09:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dieseldan7.3
last night I got the last part for my 'pane injection. Did a set up like that ziggsters guys without the oil pressure part and it comes on just above half throttle. I must have too much pane goin to it becuase it blows more black smoke than cummins at the truck pulls. Not satisfactory but I got a smaller "injector" with less holes and I will see if that helps. 0-60 mph test went from 12 seconds to 9 seconds shifting through 4 of the 5 gears. Hopefully I can get it tweaked so it runs clean and has a little more power.
I will try getting the pics posted in my gallery by tonight.
What kind of egt's are you seeing with the propane???
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Old 06-21-2005, 11:18 PM
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Wish I knew, seriously. judging by the color and quantity of the smoke the old manifolds are probably a little warm. Anyone know where to get a cheap pyro?
I am working on post my pics of the system right now.
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Old 06-22-2005, 12:14 AM
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When you start doing power mods on the engine, every pyrometer on the market is cheap.

A 150 or 200 dollar pyrometer or a 5000 dollar motor. I'll take a 400 dollar pyrometer before I want to buy another engine.

7.3 turbo complete 7000 for the engine and another 1500 till it was in the truck.

Make that a 600 dollar pyrometer, that is still very cheap insurance against an engine meltdown.

PS who cares how hot the manifolds are, the pistons are what is going to melt at 1250.
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Old 06-22-2005, 01:07 PM
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Whoa... I thought you had one! Id turn off the drugs for a little while until you get one installed!

Also, thinking about those times made me remeber something else... Over at ford-trucks.com a guy w/ an 89 7.3L ATS turbo w/ propane E40D (i think) ran repetitive times just over 7 seconds. No gear skipping either.
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Old 06-22-2005, 10:12 PM
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I am looking at pyrometers from Summit right now. I am just testing it right now but that is probably no excuse. Ive never burned holes in pistons or made viewing ports in my oil pan before but I dont imagine there is too much of a warning before shiit hits the fan.

I cant figure out why its blowing black at 2-3 psi if propane is supposed to burn cleaner. I have my pump turned up 1/3 of a turn but it only puffs a little under a load w/ no 'pane.
Maybe someone can look at my pics and tell me whats wrong with my setup or maybe I just need to fart with it some more.
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Old 06-23-2005, 07:06 AM
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What kind of stress does propane injection put on an engine? Anybody have any hard data? EGT's would be nice. So would a long-term two or three year report.

I keep hearing that PI acts as a catalyst to ensure complete burning, therefore, it places less stress on pistons, rods, bearings, etc. This is supposed to make it a great choice for boosting power on older, high mileage engines. A kinder, gentler way to smoke the rear tires. Well, I went in to ask my pump guys about this (I've been doing business there for 14 years now, and I trust these guys). I explained what I wanted to do, how I was going to do it, and why PI was such a better idea than turbocharging. These guys looked at me for a minute, then begin laughing like hyenas. I'm no stand-up comedian, but I shoulda charged admission. This is NOT reassuring.

Sun City Area Transportation (SCAT) in El Paso began using propane fumigation to clean up the exhaust from their Detroit-powered inner city buses. Maybe they've published some data. PI is attractive because it's simpler, far cheaper, and quicker to install. But I really can't afford to buy a replacement engine this year. Or next year.
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Old 06-23-2005, 06:44 PM
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Dave, as with all other things truck related, what it does for you may not be what it does for me.
Driving style, altitude and terrain all affect the results.

Bottom line is this.
The propane is a catalyst to burn more of the injected fuel.
More complete combustion results in less soot in the engine oil.
More complete combustion also results in more heat and power.
More power actually increases the stress on the engine in the head gasket, crank, and connecting rod areas.
More heat means you need to be able to watch the EGT's so you do not damage the pistons.
Propane also gives you the potential to increase the fuel mileage due to more complete combustion. But just as a turbo gives you the same potential, it also due to increased power gives you the potential to drive faster, pull bigger loads and burn more fuel than it did with out it.

With a natural aspirated engine, I do not think the stress will be near what I can get out of my turbo motor due to the lower pressure in the cylinder before compression.

I would like to know what the manifold pressure is on a NA motor running at 3000 RPM.
At sea level it would have to be a couple of pounds negative pressure due to filter and ducting restrictions.
At the same RPM and at 1300 feet elevation I am running 15 pounds positive relative pressure in the manifold. By relative pressure I mean above what is naturally here.
Even if you have a relative manifold pressure of 0 at sea level (sea level is about 14 PSI air pressure), I have twice as much air pressure in the cylinder before the compression stroke starts.

I can also tell you that Consolidated Freightways did extensive testing of propane on their trucks back in the 70's and early 80's fuel shortages. I can also tell you those were some of the meanest 350 Cummins motors I ever saw as far as power went. The drivers were all talking rather good mileage out of the propane rigs compaired to the straight diesel rigs. Some of them were claiming 7+ MPG when the straight diesel rigs were getting 4 or 5.
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  #10  
Old 06-23-2005, 08:27 PM
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Dave, you pretty much covered my concerns about using PI. The heat/pressure thing has me wondering, because I don't have any actual numbers to go by. That's why I was hoping to find someone who's been using it long enough to be able to describe EGT's under load, long-term oil sampling, and everyday fuel mileage. I realize that driving styles and conditions vary; at this point, I'll settle for ANY data.

I guess what concerns me is that PI sounds a lot like one of those 'too good to be true' things. I'm gonna take a 6,000 pound land barge, spend $200 and turn it into a Camaro. uh-huh, uh-huh.... Do I also get a title to the Brooklyn Bridge?

On the other hand, your idea about lower cylinder pressures makes sense. For less than the cost of a turbo kit, I could add PI, cowl induction (there goes the problem with negative intake pressure), a set of Stan's Headers, and dual exhaust. Sounds like hp would be very similar to a turbo'd engine, without the wear factor. Gotta tell ya, it does sound attractive.
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Old 06-23-2005, 09:08 PM
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Well I don't know if I would go so far as to say equal to a turbo, but, it would make it better in the performance department.

Kinda like my turbo though, if you put it on and do not take advantage of the extra power, the fuel mileage goes up. But if you use the power that is now available, the fuel mileage goes down.

And yes I have dusted as well as smoked a Camaro, but it was only a six banger. Still I thought that was respectable for an 8000 pound truck. I have to many toys on mine. I would have propane, but I have to figure out where to put the tank. Bed dumps so that is out, two under bed tool boxes but they are already full, custom air intake that took all the under the hood room up on the drivers side, passenger side well it has so much stuff wired up over there we won't even talk about that side.
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Old 06-23-2005, 10:09 PM
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Under cab... easy. Get a semi-flat fuel cell, and mount it on the side of hte frame, extending all the way to the edge of hte cab. You could also have the side closest to the outside rounded off. You could make the filler cap come out 3" bellow your D-side pipe at an angle. And of course paint "Propane, Biatch" on the filler cap.
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Old 06-24-2005, 01:36 PM
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About your black smoke is it not possible you have an old exhaust with an muffler filled with soot that needs to come out first. sometimes you can fix this with driving high rpms in low gear. This is just like we do every year when we have the car in voor the annual check-up.
Another possibility for your propane intake is to make an circular pipe around your intake (inside your air filter) with a lot of small holes instead of one big outlet it wil mix a lot better.
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Old 06-24-2005, 05:16 PM
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Trust me, my exhaust is not just blowing old soot. I like to keep my propane injector simple with the one copper tube w/ 4 holes in it, it all mixies in the air filter housing anyway.

WHen I get my pyrometer I will see how comfortable the motor is at 2-3 psi and if it is I will let it be and live with the black smoke. That is when it makes the most power. With this setup I can use the propane when I need it and have lots of power but when Im just bobtailing I can leave it turned off and not waste propane or turn my wheel black.
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Old 06-24-2005, 05:21 PM
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Talking

"Oh, I dont have room for propane and my turbo is better anyway"
-Dave S.
I dont know Dave, it sounds to me like your making excuses because your jealous. You know my turboless beast could smoke your black rig even if I had a gooseneck hooked up to mine.
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Old 06-24-2005, 05:21 PM
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