Hi,
I have a 1953 F-100 with the 239 OHV V8 that I plan on building into a semi-custom truck and I was going to try something a little different and put a turbo on it. Has anyone heard of this being done to these engines before or have any knowlege as if it will hold up ok as long as I limit boost. Anyone know if valve floating is going to be an issue? I'm not thinking of packing the cylinders with a bunch of fuel and air, just a little extra air and fuel to give it some pep and have something different on the truck. I know that these engine produced around 96hp stock (or that's what it says on the serial number plate), so I don't want to push it too far. What's the max amout of hp that these motors can put out reliably? Thanks in advance to anyone who has input on this subject.

 

I have been running the same idea through my head too. The bottom end should be more than enough for moderate boost, with the proper tuning. Tuning is the key here.

 

It depends on which 239 you have as far as factory HP. The Cleveland is 130 and the Dearborn is 145. The main difference is that the Dearborn uses the later 272 style heads. The rating on the plate is taxable HP and not BHP.

The 239 can wind up pretty good thanks to the short stroke. I used to run my 54 F350 with the 5.14 rear at 55 on a regular basis and it never complained.

I dont know what benefit a turbo would bring since they usually dont start performing until you're up into hi revs and by then your pushing the higher ranges of an unmodified old tech engine. If the object is a racing motor then a turbo or two would be fine.

Ive considered a supercharger several times but the fat front cover of a Y makes adapting a readily available unit a bit of a task. With the supercharger becoming more popular in new vehicles Ive got to start popping hoods again and see what looks doable.
BTW a supercharger provides boost as soon as you hit the go pedal.

 

Thx. again 286

I think as turbos became more popular on small high reving 4 Cyl. and diesels they pushed superchargers out of the popular favor, and as usual new is not always better.

Wasn't there was a Fact. supercharger on a Y- in 57 or so? A modern adaptation would be trick.

David

 

Thanks for everyone's input so far.

kens64:
As far as boost and tuning go, I was thinking of around 8-10lbs of boost, possibly just putting larger jets in the stock carb and I guess I will have to see about timing when I get it put together.

286merc:
I will have to look as to which motor is in the truck. Is there any easy way to tell? The way I look at turbocharging over supercharging is with a supercharger your taking power right from the crank to drive it, with a turbocharger your utilizing wasted exhaust gasses to drive it and create boost; although there is some backpressure created with a turbocharger, it doesn't seem that there is as much of a power robbing factor when compared to using a supercharger. I see your point about a turbocharger not creating boost right when you hit the pedal (I suppose that's why we don't see turbos on top fuel dragsters, not to mention the EGTs that those engines must have), but that's where I will have to do some research and see what turbo would work best when it comes to exhaust and compressor housing sizes so that it will spool quickly and will create boost quickly. I am used to working on turbo diesel engines, so I suppose with a gas motor I will need to find a turbo with a blow-off valve for the 239?

 

I don't consider myself an expert but I pay attn to answers I get so i dont have to ask them again.

Well this seems alittle too obvious to say but if the title of your post is accurate, a 53 239 would be a flattie, easily distinguished. If someones put a 54 /55 Y- in your truck here's alittle Info I cut and pasted that may help you distinguish what you have. Also check Mummerts for great data.

"The first 239 54 Truck and Car were made in the Dearborn plant. Dearborn engines casting identification is "DIF". The Dearborn engine block identification is "EBU". They had large journal cams that are not compatible with later engines. Small journal camshaft are normal for all subsequent Y-blocks. Their camshafts / bearings are not interchangeable, the distributor drive at the end of the camshaft was for a distributor gear with only 13 teeth. A later distributor can be interchanged if you use an appropriate earlier 13 tooth gear. The block and heads had different deck passages so they can't be interchanged. The 54 Truck and Car engines started out with small peanut valve heads.

The 55 truck and Car 239 Cleveland engine was made in the Cleveland foundry. The Cleveland foundry mark on the blocks that I've seen are on the right front of the block, between the generator and the timing cover, or above the oil filter and just below the head. Cleveland engines casting identification is a "C" with an "F" inside. Cleveland engines block identification is "EBV". They are fully interchangeable with the other Y Blocks and have the standard small journal camshafts. It used a 14 tooth distributor. The Clevelands all used the larger 1.78 valves and everything interchanged with the 272 and 292 thru 1956. These were good engines!!!! As a matter of fact, I think from my memory back then that they had less problems, other than burned valves.

The 54 /55 256 will have EBY or EBZ. casting identification. ID can usually be found on the block above the oil filter. ID may be found by the distributor.

Keep on Truckin, David

 

So much for memory, I cant even remember my earlier posts! Swap Cleveland & Dearborn for the HP.

As far as ID go here http://www.ford-y-block.com/techincal.htm

I still dont see much of a benefit from small turbos on an engine that was designed for low end torque. Maybe something off a V8 Mercedes but Id think more at a 3.8 Buick, Ford, etc, supercharger at a minimum.

In 57 a blower was a 300HP option for the 312. It was a Paxton/McCullough and they show up on Epay once in awhile for big bucks. In any event old blowers bring their old problems with them.

 

8-10 lbs should be fine on even a totaly stock motor. Your timing will be important. IMO, get an electronic ignition with adjustable advance controls and play around until you find a good setting, or a system that pulls timing as boost increases could be even better. Even more boost is possible, depending on where you live (elevation- you have to run more boost at 5000 feet, to make the same power as a similar engine at sea level. As long as you remember detonation is your enemy, you should be ok.

Rejetting is just one thing you have to do to the carb to get it to run right under boost, although it is the most important. There are some more tweaks to get the most out of whatever carb you use. Check around the net, there are some really good sites that will tell you everything you have to know to mod your carb to work. I used to have some good links saved, but I cant find them anymore

Take your time choosing a turbo, the right design or combination of housings can make boost just above idle and work great up until about 5500-6000 RPM when it starts running out of breath. Still not as early as a roots, but very streetable. I myself am looking at 2 turbos out of a couple of Thunderbird Turbo Coupes, one off each manifold. Small and reliable, and still have great throttle response.

Good luck with whatever you choose.

 

Deuced:
The engine deffinately has OHV heads on it. I was told it was a 239; is it possible to but '54 heads on a '53 block? I will look at the block numbers tomorrow and post them.

286merc:
Thanks for the link, I'm sure it will become useful once it get the numbers off the engine.

kens64;
Would you know who makes a good electrinic ignition for the Y-blocks? I was thinking of trying to stay away from detonation and advancing the timing too far as I was planning on using stock rods along with everything else. As far as elevation, it is pretty flat around here, so I don't think I will need to worry about air density issues too much. There is a guy around here that is suppposed to be good at rebuilding anf modifying the carbs on these engines, so I was planning on taking it to him once I get it all put together and going over the tunning with him when it comes to jets, etc. For a turbo or turbos, I have been looking at garret T4s for twins and also had an idea of using a single turbo fromm a Buick GN, but at this point I'm just looking at what's available; like you said something small that wouldn't cause too much lag, yet would be reliable for cruising down the road.

Also, the engine already runs well, so i wasn't thinking of it being necessary completly tearing it down, just chencking vlaves and pulling the pan to inspect the mains or would it be better to pull pistons, ect and spec. everything and do a complete rebuild? I don't plan on ever really racing the truck so it's not going to be driven hard, just to shows and around town.

 

You cant put Y Block heads on a flatty!

There is also a good chance that your truck is original and correct. Many states use the year of manufacture for the title and not the model year. There should be a VIN plate inside the glove box with all the info. If that is missing the VIN is stamped on the passenger side top frame rail just foreward of the firewall.

 

IMo, at the very least, check the compression to see how the rings are holding up. Replacing the rings and main bearings would definately not hurt if the motor has a lot of miles. There will be more stress on them under boost.

I have the Mallory electronic replacement for points, and its great. Best mod I have done so far to the ol Y. Pertronix has a good piece too. Most of the MSD or Mallory ignition boxes and timing boxes are pretty easy to install and wire. Make sure the ignition box is in a well ventilated place, they get pretty hot.

A GN turbo should work great, dont forget to look at the T-Types also, they have almost the same turbo and a lot more of them were made.

 

Alright, I was able to get the numbers off the engine block today; they are ECZ 6015A. According to the chart, that makes the engine a '56 292/312? A little different form what I was told it was. Would this be a good thing or a bad thing as far as being able to turbocharge it compared to the 239?

Thanks for all the info so far guys, I really appreciate it.

 

Now right off, I'll say that I'm pretty much a total amatuer when it comes to car engines. I can tell and oil filter from a carb, and rebuilt a flattie back in my younger days, but there's a bunch of better educated engine people on this site than I.

Sounds like you have a y-block engine, which has a lot of low end torque. Maximum horsepower and torque are achieved pretty low on the rpm range in the typical y-block compared to today's engines. Turbos, from my limited understanding, probably start working pretty well around 3,000 rpm and higher -just about where a stock-cammed y-block probably starts falling off the chart. Especially with a truck engine - made for pulling, not drag racing.

Some of the engineering types can better describe these things to you in technowizardry terms and calculations, but generally speaking, I think turbos probably work best with engines that like to run in the high rpm ranges, not like the stock y-blocks.

Y-blocks basically have these choices for fuel intake (unless money is no object, of course): the factory 2-barrel carb and intake (boring), a factory or Mummert's 4-barrel intake with appropriate sized carb, the variety of 3 -2 manifolds out there using strombergs, and the very few 2 -4 barrel manifolds that exist. Who doesn't want the 3 -2 setup for just it's looks? But it isn't the best horsepower maker, and it's expensive to buy and a lot more complicated to set up and keep running. Just for the pure sex appeal, I would want one (plus, having driven a friend's GTO with 3 - 2's, NOTHING sounds like 3 -2's when they're opened up!

Two 4 barrel carbs is overkill on most y-blocks, even with 500 cfm carbs, and REALLY expensive. And a two barrel, even like the new Demons which are some high performance carbs, just doesn't look very cool. That leaves only..... a single 4 barrel. Which isn't a bad thing, but not as cool looking when compared to 3 -2's.

So, I've been looking at my vintage y-block, thinking about what would jazz up the top end of the engine with some "coolness factor" and provide a little better performance. Being ignorant does have its advantages - don't have to spend time in engineering analysis of what would work best. So I've been thinking of a turbo and a 4-barrel too. First off, the stock y-block manifolds have front ports for the cross-over exhaust pipe. Remove the crossover, make an adaptor to a turbo, and there you go (I know its not that simple in practice, people, but in theory it is.) Ken mentioned the Ford Thunderbird turbos, I was thinking about the Buick V-6 turbo - saw one on E-bay last week at $100 - but sure it sold higher than that. A turbo could be cool, although the mechanics of bolting everything together and fabricating parts could take some time to figure out.

I also thought about using Weber carbs (like the ones on Fiats, Alfa Romeos etc). They're easy to work on, parts are readily available, and they would also look pretty cool. They are also designed to work with pretty small displacement motors, so over-carbueration wouldn't be a problem. Fabricating adaptors from a 3 -2 manifold to these carbs could also be difficult.

However . . . . for those of you who are really dreamers out there, anyone see the recent article in the Hemmings collector car magazine about a Dodge Polaris with a 383 and a factory cross ram manifold? The manifold is really pretty much like a series of pipes that bolt up to the intake ports on one head, then cross over the top of the engine, then over the top of the valve cover on the other side of the engine to a mounting pad for a 4-barrel carb. The carbs are located somewhere between the exhaust manifold and the inner fender sheetmetal on each side of the engine. This started me wondering if the same thing could be fabricated for a y-block, using stainless steel exhaust pipes bent in an arc over the top of the engine to form an intake manifold (the Dodge cross ram was cast aluminum) with mounting flanges for the head ports welded on one side, and a stainless steel carb mounting box welded on the other end. The dodge manifold looks really cool (they claimed the design increased torque), although, the choice of mounting carbs darn near directly over the exhaust manifold doesn't sound like a real sound engineering decision to me - wonder if that's why Dodge didn't make more of these Thinking about this more and more - must have too much time on my hands.

This might just work, then again, maybe not. I'm still wrestling with the intake and carb questions and think that it would be fun to do something no-one else has tried.

What's that saying? - you can tell the pioneers from everyone else - they're the ones with arrows in their a...

Still thinking about this one -

 

The right design will work. Think of turbo diesels, they boost very low in the RPM range. The advantage we have with Y blocks having so much torque, is that turbo lag will almost not be noticeable. The engine will pull itself into boost easily, unlike a 4 cylinder car that is useless below spool up and makes NO power

Its extremely do-able. Im getting past the planning stages and looking at tubing and mounting to get everything together and looking good.

 

In the old HP Book on Turbochargers, Duke Hallock, who is one of the contributors to the book and was an engineer with Air Research, a turbo maker, has a picture of his 292 turboed truck one one of the pages.

Any engine can be turboed. It doesn't matter what RPM the engine runs at, or what size it is. The turbo doesn't read the size decal on the rocker cover, nor does it look at a tachometer. All it does is know how much airflow it is getting from the exhaust, and for this it makes a certain amount of airfolw into the intake. If you know how to size the thing by matching the engine to the turbo specs, then it will work. Theoretically.

Practically, the motor needs to hold up.

I would be thinking that about 6 or 7 psi boost would work for the stock pistons, and above this, you would need stronger ones.

I think that if I were going to build something wild, I would choose a 272 block, from the latest 272 years, since they were made on the 292 casting and will have nice, thick cylinder walls. Giving up 20 cu in wouldn't mean anything, since one can simply use more boost. Forged pistons, a steel truck crank and 471 heads would work OK. I'd use 2 smaller turbos, one for each bank, because smaller ones are more responsive.

All this, if I were a millionaire, of course.

If the rotating assembly was built right, I would think that the thing could do well, as the bottom end of a Y should be able to support quite a bit of power.

I would also use a computerized, crank triggered ignition. At some point, port injection would probably be good, too.