So your hauling cattle? What type of weight and speeds will you be doing. Is it mostly under 50 and back country roads or will you be mostly at freeway speeds.
The PSD flat our hauls the Cummins in every test that has ever been done. But those test are not real work test. They are what I call pleasure test. If you are going to see alot of slow driving under 50 and stop and go I would say get the Dodge with a manual. If on the other hand you are doing mostly highway driving then I think the Ford would be better.
On the other hand if you want the truck that is the most capable then Ford is the only way to go because its CGVW is about 3000lbs more than the Dodge. Of course I also think the Ford is more rugged than the Dodge but that is really based on older vehicles.
now if ya can't see by my name i am brand loyal to gm.
beyond that for diesels i would say that cummins is very reliable motor and does generally get a little better fuel economy than the other 2 V8s but i wouldn't give you much for a dodge automatic transmission. there manual is fine and i really don't know much about the rest of the truck to comment on it other than i have rode in one to tell about the interior.
the ford has a relatively reliable motor but the 6.0 is not as good as the 7.3, i have heard but can't prove that ford kind of went there own way on the 6.0 and it was not as intragrated with international hense the less durable engine. the torque shift also has a couple different recalls on it as of right now. the ford is the fastest dragracer stock.
the duramax has the allison which is the best in my opinion but some have had problems with the neutral reverse switch but that seems to be all except for a few scarce problems. this transmission will also cover 400 hp and up to 600lb feet of torque with out exploding. (aka a chip) the duramax has had problems with injectors on the lb7 or the earlier motor but the newer 2004.5+ injectors seem to be much more reliable with very few problems. as for towing up hills with heavy loads the duramax will do it faster as the test is done by kennedydiesel (under dmax performance) each year.
each has there plus and menos not to get into the brand war which i love to laugh at as well as take place in. i try to keep all of my posts to facts as people are here for information not B.S.
I dont know, the Cummins is a good towing engine, perhaps the best out of the big three. The powerstroke offers more speed and driveablity, the cummins is very loud and annoying. Mileage is going vary considerbly, but generally the Cummins is going to get better mileage as it likes the lower RPMs more, but it depends on what tranny and rear end youve got too. If I were you Id look into the Ford F-650, it comes avialable with the Cummins motor. If I had to choose an engine for commerical towing, I would go with the Cummins.
If you get a F-650, forget the Cummins and get the real diesel, a Cat diesel.
If you get a F-650, forget the Cummins and get the real diesel, a Cat diesel.
Hmmm, from what little I know Caterpillar means;
1.) You pay a premium for the name
2.) Your replacement parts generally cost 50% more than for other diesels
3.) ACERT technology can be problematic
4.) HEUI technology is also known for problems over common rail.
So lets see (not that you've actually used these word, but it comes off this way nonetheless) 1.) 6.0PSD = real diesel 2.) Cummins = inferior somehow 3.) Cat = superior
No offense bud, but given their different approaches toward injection and emmisions technology - to say nothing of the cost of replacement parts - give me the F650/Cummins over the F650/Cat any day.
Besides - I've heard many opinions around here regarding the Cummins as a tractor motor which is good only for low speed use. Keep in mind two facts;
1.) The 650 comes with a Cat/6speed combo available - so no advantage there over a Dodge Cummins/6speed with that one - are six gears enough? Yes.
2.) Speaking of low rpm off road motors - yeah, Cat has their name all over that one...lol.
2.)
1.) You pay a premium for the name
2.) Your replacement parts generally cost 50% more than for other diesels
3.) ACERT technology can be problematic
4.) HEUI technology is also known for problems over common rail.
So lets see (not that you've actually used these word, but it comes off this way nonetheless) 1.) 6.0PSD = real diesel 2.) Cummins = inferior somehow 3.) Cat = superior
No offense bud, but given their different approaches toward injection and emmisions technology - to say nothing of the cost of replacement parts - give me the F650/Cummins over the F650/Cat any day.
Besides - I've heard many opinions around here regarding the Cummins as a tractor motor which is good only for low speed use. Keep in mind two facts;
1.) The 650 comes with a Cat/6speed combo available - so no advantage there over a Dodge Cummins/6speed with that one - are six gears enough? Yes.
2.) Speaking of low rpm off road motors - yeah, Cat has their name all over that one...lol.
2.)
Have you even driven a Cat?? It sounds to me as if you haven't. There is a huge difference
Caterpillar is superior to Cummins in more ways than one. They are much more durable as proven by the OTR trucks. Yes, when parts do go bad they are more expensive, but you won't have to replace near as many on a Cat as you will on a Cummins. Have you ever seen the inside of a Cat and the inside of a Cummins either? There is no comparison, the Cat's components are much more substantial.
The truckers and loggers around here refer to the Cummins as "throw away engines", that should be self explanatory.
Let's just say if I got the Cat F-650 and you got the Cummins F-650, I'd go more trouble free miles, outhaul, outtow, outlast and just flat outrun yours.
If you hooked them back to back, the Cat would drag the Cummins all over the place.
I don't buy into the Cummins thing, they're pretty good, but after I rode in a Dodge 2500 and the whole front end of the Cummins came apart (pulleys and water pump fell off @ 70mph), that told me then that I should stay away from it.
I have no doubt in my mind that Cat makes an awesome engine. Most OTR trucks have Cats in them, from what I see. But your comparing a 7.2 L CAT engine to a 5.9 L Cummins which is offered in the F650. I would sure hope the CAT out performs it. Now from what I have seen in the motorhome market the 8.3 L Cummins dominates the 7.2 L Cat. Does anyone have some information on this? From what I see though most motorhomes have a Cummins in them. Correct me if I'm wrong
I have no doubt in my mind that Cat makes an awesome engine. Most OTR trucks have Cats in them, from what I see. But your comparing a 7.2 L CAT engine to a 5.9 L Cummins which is offered in the F650. I would sure hope the CAT out performs it. Now from what I have seen in the motorhome market the 8.3 L Cummins dominates the 7.2 L Cat. Does anyone have some information on this? From what I see though most motorhomes have a Cummins in them. Correct me if I'm wrong
Yes I know the F-650 has the ISB Cummins and the Motorhomes have the ISC, the Ford Cat is a C7 (7.2L, used to be known as the 3126B).
The bus fleet here at the college has a fleet of ISC's. They are usually run for 300,000 and then sold off. They are gradually switching to Detroit powered units.
Yes I know the F-650 has the ISB Cummins and the Motorhomes have the ISC, the Ford Cat is a C7 (7.2L, used to be known as the 3126B).
The bus fleet here at the college has a fleet of ISC's. They are usually run for 300,000 and then sold off. They are gradually switching to Detroit powered units.
With diesels its not Ford/Chevy/Dodge, its International, Cummins, ISUZU, and I guess CAT.
The ISUZU...again, ISUZU has that Allison Tranny everyone raves about. Now, I really hate to knock that product, but the application used in the GM isnt that great. I do a lot of subcontracted work for a Chevy dealership, and you would be surprised all the duallys used for farming that are in the shop because of that transmission. That ISUZU actually isn't the problem.
The Cummins is running the strait6 motor which has been used for years now which is the way to go. Strait-6 design is proven to be the most efficient and well built approach at building a motor. Just look at the bulletproof 4.9 gas job in Ford trucks, the 4.0 in the Jeeps that date back to the 60's, and some of the big semi's on the road. The only problem (from what I hear) isn't the motor, its what's around the motor.
Why Ford went from a 7.3 to a 6.0 I don't know. So what if the numbers are better on paper, and the engine is quieter. A diesel is supposed to be the "workhorse" and to significantly downsize it is idiotic if you ask me.
Im not going to doubt the CAT. But seriously folks, look at the rig you need to buy to have that. Sure if I was solely looking for a tow rig, and had extra bucks for the extra large truck, I'd most certainly look into that, but we are talking about a 3/4, 1 ton truck here...aren't we??
Getting to the topic at hand--- My first experience with a diesel was towing a full-size chevy 4X4 up north on a flatbed trailer. 170 miles going from 1200 elevation to 7000+. Ran up the hills with no problem, and made it back home with the empty trailer all on LESS THEN A QUARTER TANK OF GAS!! This was in my buddies 97 Dodge with a 6 speed tranny and the Banks system installed. It was a loud SOB, but my god, awesome rig!
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Have you even driven a Cat?? It sounds to me as if you haven't. There is a huge difference
Caterpillar is superior to Cummins in more ways than one. They are much more durable as proven by the OTR trucks. Yes, when parts do go bad they are more expensive, but you won't have to replace near as many on a Cat as you will on a Cummins. Have you ever seen the inside of a Cat and the inside of a Cummins either? There is no comparison, the Cat's components are much more substantial.
The truckers and loggers around here refer to the Cummins as "throw away engines", that should be self explanatory.
Let's just say if I got the Cat F-650 and you got the Cummins F-650, I'd go more trouble free miles, outhaul, outtow, outlast and just flat outrun yours.
If you hooked them back to back, the Cat would drag the Cummins all over the place.
I don't buy into the Cummins thing, they're pretty good, but after I rode in a Dodge 2500 and the whole front end of the Cummins came apart (pulleys and water pump fell off @ 70mph), that told me then that I should stay away from it.
Trouble free mileage is going to depend heavily upon usage and maintenance - both of which are very important factors in a 650 series truck.
Dragging my hypothetical 650 with Cummins around is going to depend largely on tires and traction conditions IMO.
The 650 comes with a 200HP 6.0 as standard equipment. The top Cummins upgrade is 275 HP and 660 FTLB at a cost of around 5000.00 if I remember correctly. For about the same upgrade price you get a Cat with 190 HP and 520 FTLB. For the top Cat upgrade (300HP/860 LBFT) you are talking almost 9,000.00.
With the best Cummins upgrade instead of the base Cat you gain 85HP and 140 LBFT - plus replacement parts will be much cheaper. Emmissions technology less problematic.
Going with the best Cummins upgrade as opposed to the Top Cat upgrade, you save enough money to upgrade the rear axle to a two speed, add a higher capacity, add air brakes, and higher capacity rear springs (20,000lb).
In addition to this you get a better and more reliable emmissions system and less problematic injection system. You won't need to buy another piggy bank for replacement parts either. 275HP and 660LBFT is plenty for most applications - especially with that two speed rear axle the cost savings allowed for.
These are all very serious considerations I would make if buying a big truck like that for serious abusive commercial use. The Cats will break also - everything does eventually with the uses that those trucks see day in and out.
So a water pump fell off a Dodge that you was in and now they're all bad? Come around man - nothing's perfect, as much as I'm starting to like the 6.0 - there is yet another new post in the 6.0 forum of yet another 6.0 that fried on it's owner - the poor guy just bought it last October - again NOTHING is perfect.
Last edited by Megalodon1; 03-02-2005 at 02:29 AM.
1.) The 650 comes with a Cat/6speed combo available - so no advantage there over a Dodge Cummins/6speed with that one - are six gears enough? Yes.
Ummm, the F-650 comes with your choice of an Allison 5 speed automatic or an Eaton 6 speed manual or Spicer 7 speed manual. Ford knows that 6 ain't enough, but to be fair, Dodge doesn't even attempt to make trucks that compete with this one, as much as their salesmen would have you believe that a 3500 Ram is as strong. But, as we see, when it comes to serious work trucks, Dodge doesn't even try to compete. Smart move by Dodge.
Ok, now in the F-650/F-750 line, here are your choices:
Powerstroke
200hp/520 lb-ft
215hp/540 lb-ft
230hp/540 lb-ft
230hp/620 lb-ft
Cummins
185hp/420 lb-ft (not much at all for the base Cummins)
200hp/520 lb-ft (that's BASE PSD numbers)
215hp/520 lb-ft
230hp/520 lb-ft
245hp/660 lb-ft
260hp/550 lb-ft (nope, that's not a misprint for torque)
260hp/660 lb-ft
275hp/660 lb-ft
CAT
190hp/520 lb-ft (small numbers)
210hp/520 lb-ft
210hp/605 lb-ft
230hp/540 lb-ft
230hp/660 lb-ft
250hp/660 lb-ft
275hp/800 lb-ft (Where the CAT starts to shine and show why it's worth it)
300hp/800 lb-ft
300hp/860 lb-ft
So there are only three possible ways to get a Cummins with more torque than even the PSD in the F-650/F-750 lines, and I bet they cost a pretty penny to upgrade them. So why even upgrade to the Cummins?
Ford also has dyno sheets posted on their site for the top of the line of each engine. http://www.commtruck.ford.com/ctw/default.asp
As you can see, top of the line vs top of the line, they go like this:
PSD
230hp@2600rpms 620lb-ft@1500rpms
Cummins
275hp@2500rpms 660lb-ft@1600rpms
CAT
300hp@2200rpms 860lb-ft@1440rpms
So, when looking at that, to make it's peak torque, the Cummins is the highest revving of all 3.
Megalodon1, How much does it cost to upgrade to the top of the line PSD? I bet you could save a lot and upgrade to a much better truck. I wouldn't pay money to have a Cummins that has 45 more hp and 40 more lb-ft, that hardly seems worth paying for, especially when it's the top of the line Cummins and the PSD isn't too far behind it. I just can't see where it's worth it to upgrade from the PSD to the Cummins. Shoot, give me that 860 lb-ft CAT with a 7 speed Spicer manual any day.
Last edited by FordLariat; 03-02-2005 at 03:43 AM.
Add a tuner from Motorhaven and you get an extra 100 + 200TQ, on the PSD
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Dragging my hypothetical 650 with Cummins around is going to depend largely on tires and traction conditions IMO.
Assuming that the pull is on pavement, both trucks have the same gearing and the same tires, the Cat would eat the Cummins for lunch at the same HP and tq. ratings.
Quote:
With the best Cummins upgrade instead of the base Cat you gain 85HP and 140 LBFT - plus replacement parts will be much cheaper. Emmissions technology less problematic.
In addition to this you get a better and more reliable emmissions system and less problematic injection system.
Pure hearsay. The Cummins has had trouble with their Bosch injectors. They also have had issues with their lift and transfer pumps.
Quote:
So a water pump fell off a Dodge that you was in and now they're all bad?
Well that and the fact that the last Dodge that was on the farm blew a tranny at less than 10,000 miles. So I (and my family) have good reason not to have faith in Dodge trucks.
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