ford 460 chevy 454 dodge 440

[bassdude]

the reason theres hemi domination at the drags is because the NHRA doesn't allow the ford guys to use boss heads.

[IB Tim]

What was the reason for them, not allowing "them"?

[bassdude]

i'm not sure. i think it's politics more than anything. they were talking about it on the 385 series forum a while back.

[FRECSF]

Originally Posted by bassdude

the reason theres hemi domination at the drags is because the NHRA doesn't allow the ford guys to use boss heads.

The reason for the Hemi domination in drag racing is that nothing can compete with the Hemi heads ability to flow enough air to make 5000 + HP without moving to an over head cam design which is not allowed.

Ford does have some good heads like the CJ heads, but when it comes to making insane HP, they can't compete with the Hemi heads. I am more than sure if the ford or gm guys could run ford and gm stuff they would, but fact is they can't compete, hence Hemi domination.

[DOHCmarauder]

Originally Posted by bassdude

the reason theres hemi domination at the drags is because the NHRA doesn't allow the ford guys to use boss heads.

Absolutely INCORRECT!!!!!
The current Top Fuel Hemi has evolved into a pure 100% custom built aftermarket piece.............there is not one Chrysler part on a TF car. Yes the TF motors are based on Chrysler's original Hemi from way back.

It would be the same to build a a TF Ford motor..........all aftermarket. The heads are cast by AR and there are a few aftermarket blocks. It's just easier/cheaper and parts are far more plentiful to build the Chrysler based engine.

It does bother me that Ford pays some of the bills on the Mustang T/F cars!!!

But people in the know refer to the motors as Ed Pink or Kieth Black motors(or whomever the builder is rather than it's a "Dodge"


OHC is allowed...............please figure what engine you'd rather tear down between rounds????

[bassdude]

well i just went back and looked at the 385 series forum on net.54 and your wrong. i tried to put in a link to the thread and couldn';t for some reason.
the gist of it is the NHRA won't allow any design changes from the existing motors without approval. an engine builder came up with a good design for ford motors and the NHRA shot it down. i'm sure there's some builders who could compete with the hemi motors.
i think everybody here knows that top fuel motors are completly custom built.

[DOHCmarauder]

Copy and paste it.


Some guy on this site also found a "credible source" that a Taurus station wagon with a 140HP 3.8L V6 can do 0-60 in 6 seconds!!!


An truthfully, about the custom built comment..........I sometimes doubt what "everybody here knows".

[bassdude]

i didn't want to do that becouse i hate when other people do it but since you asked...... i guess the bore size was the determining facter not the heads. still the same point though.
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NHRA....SPEC engine for TF?
February 25 2005 at 9:00 PM
No score for this post Gary H. (Login cappntripps)
from IP address 70.176.125.122

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

guess this will kill any chance of a ford engine, huh?

In an effort to improve communication and promote cooperation between NHRA and the race teams regarding the future direction and development of Top Fuel and Funny Car racing engines, the NHRA Technical Department has released the following:

The NHRA engine moratorium is intended to control the escalating cost of drag racing at the sport's highest level while at the same time maintaining equity between the highly financed operations and the less-financed teams.

It is NHRA's opinion that the engine moratorium and direction of an NHRA "Spec" race engine in Top Fuel and Funny Car will strengthen the flow of used parts from better-financed teams down to other competitors. This will offer the lower-financed teams the opportunity of equal performance potential with the higher funded operations.

The engine component and cylinder head moratorium includes, but is not limited to, engine blocks, cylinder heads, intake manifolds, fuel injectors, and superchargers. This includes any redesign, reconfiguration, and/or significant modifications to existing components.

To continue in this endeavor, NHRA is in the process of developing additional specifications for the NHRA "Spec" Top Fuel/Funny Car racing engine. Many of these specifications have been identified through the course of the moratorium, and more will be processed in the near future.

As a reminder, the Top Fuel and Funny Car engine moratorium for engine components includes all aspects of the engine. Any changes to the engine or related components must be submitted to NHRA with all needed specifications, measurements, and guidelines for possible consideration.
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Les
(Login Wildfire466)
68.127.121.117 Hey Gary
No score for this post February 25 2005, 10:26 PM
I'm suprize there hasn't been some sort of protest.

Here is a entry list for for the upcoming NHRA Race

http://www.nhra.com/2005/events/race02/entrylist.html

Makes me sick. And to think there has to be a FFW organization where us Ford guys race our own.
I paid the yearly dues to NHRA and it's sad because I'd like to see other Ford's run. I do understand the there is very little "Ford parts" within the engine but still.

My goal is to add one more Ford to that entry list.

Les

http://www.geocities.com/wildfire1mustang
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Gary H.
(Login cappntripps)
70.176.125.122 yeah, kinda sucks..
No score for this post February 26 2005, 4:33 AM
was out there at the nats, GM and Mopar hve their trailers, nothing from ford though... maybe someday ford will get back into drag racing..

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jeff hann
(Login cletus66)
199.64.0.252 A perfect example of communism at it's finest................
No score for this post February 26 2005, 8:16 AM

Don't allow anyone to do better than anyone else. Drag everyone down to the same level so nobody gets ahead. EDITED BY ADMIN


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rkl307
(Login rkl307)
24.184.64.153 Re: A perfect example of communism at it's finest................
No score for this post February 26 2005, 9:30 AM


That's 1 factor.
The other one is "Let's protect the closed market for our big manufacturers (the ones who bribe us). It's harder for them to sell parts when some guy beats them with stuff he made in his garage".


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Bob
(Login machoneman)
24.15.183.20 I also.....
No score for this post February 26 2005, 10:53 AM


agree that NHRA's moves are more likely designed to protect the current engine parts manufacturers than keep out Ford block/head designs....or the new Chevy design like Sonny Leonard's near-copy of the Boss hemi head for IHRA pro-stock competition. Its sad since the recent nitro percentage reductions, mandatory rear gear ratio maximum and a few other changes have worked to keep T/F and F/C speeds down. Since these changes were necessary to allow events at tracks w/o long shutoff areas, let alone the greater potential for fatalities as speeds kept rising, why then limit new, innovative engine/blower designs?

NHRA did set a precedent. When the screw-type blowers came out some years ago and started to eat up the traditional GMC lobe design blowers, NHRA moved pretty quickly, under the guise of 'evening out' competition, to limit overdrive percentages and establish a maximum blower exit aperture. While this may have been true, many a tradional blower maker screamed bloody murder behind the scenes....until NHRA tech stepped in.

Yes, I also read the recent posts about a new Boss 429 based replica engine that was being prepared for the alcohol and fuel ranks. Banning this combo based on bore size (heck, they could just as easily have said "no Fords or Chevys" for that mattter) was a bad idea. But, I think it was a bad idea mainly due to the effect on fans....that is, new fans that may have been attracted to the sport upon hearing that Chevy or Ford based engines were beating the Chryslers.

If NHRA is true to their word, many other changes could be made to reduce the "high cost of racing". How about a one engine per event rule? One engine and a spare set of heads? Two sets of cluth disc packs per event? 50% nitro rule? Fewer qualifying sessions? 16 total pistons/liners per event? The list goes on and on.

Hey, on the other hand, I really don't care much anymore what they do. NHRA lost me some time ago by their arbitrary rules.





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Gary H.
(Login cappntripps)
70.176.125.122 sad part is..
No score for this post February 26 2005, 10:58 AM


.. that alot of the restrictions are insurance related..used to be anyway...

blah.. anyway.. pics of a nice 67FB from firebird..








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Randy Malik
(Login rmcomprandy)
4.229.105.111 Sanctioning Bodies
No score for this post February 26 2005, 11:30 AM


Yea, I go to 4 or 5 IHRA events a year; NO more NHRA for me. Their competitors are first class and they get treated like dirt in most instances. Edit: I'll learn how to spell, one of these days...! Maybe.


This message has been edited by rmcomprandy from IP address 4.229.105.247 on Feb 27, 2005 12:40 AM

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Michael M
(Login rmcomprandy)
4.229.105.111 Different brand heads are abundant in top fuel....!
No score for this post February 26 2005, 11:17 AM

The short block just goes round and round if it seals OK so, someone has to redesign the Ford head to fit the present rule for bore spacing. This "spec" stuff isn't a rule...YET.

This message has been edited by rmcomprandy from IP address 4.229.105.111 on Feb 26, 2005 11:20 AM

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rkl307
(Login rkl307)
24.184.64.153 It will be...
No score for this post February 26 2005, 7:22 PM

If:
1. they win, or
2. people buy them


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Current Topic - NHRA....SPEC engine for TF?

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[DOHCmarauder]

OK, I also found the EXACT rule.

http://www.nhra.com/2001/news/February/022002.html

If I'm reading that correctly, it doesn't limit manufacturers, only dimensions.

[bassdude]

well that effectivly rules out everthing but the current motors.

[DOHCmarauder]

I'm too lazy right now, but what are the vlave angles of a BOSS head? Bore spacing etc.? The point being is if any manufacturer wanted their name on the block/heads they would simply recast to the current allowed dimensions.

I understand the rule. It's the same small group of people every week, and the same people winning. Its intent was to even the playing field. Like CART only running Fords, or IRL having a few approved engines.


My point is simply that NHRA did not say, "NO FORD OR GM ENGINES!!!"

[DOHCmarauder]

Dude, thanks for the quote.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say IHRA will not follow NHRA's lead EVER. (check cubic inch limits etc) And people still don't run the Boss in T/F. It's a money thang I tell ya.

[79F150FT]

In stock form I will say the 440. To get more specific id choose a 68-70 440, pretty stout bottom end for street/strip duty, reliable valvetrain, 906 heads were a weakness in the exhaust port area in my opinion. Most typical reason a 440 bottom end would fail would be due to detonation. The 69 Six Pack/6BBl were awesome street performers, good performance/street manners while cruising with just the center carb and then you unleash around 1350cfm when you hit the gas pedal!

Now if I was to take one of the engines and modify it with a budget of $4000 I would still choose a 440. Now depending if it was street/strip oriented or race oriented my buildup would be different.

Never heard the reason for hemi's running poorly as lying in the camshaft, in my personal experiences its been most problems are constituted by guys not knowing how to tune them, or make proper adjustments. Such as the valve train when it was solid before switching to hydraulic camshaft(I believed switched in 68 or 69), needed to check and adjust the rocker arms, lifters etc, or do some minor recurving to the distributor and most importantly work out the bugs in the carbs! Plus most guys running them on the street would not realize the 426 Hemi loves top end charge, a bit weak on the lower part of the power band. They love to be wound up and breath all of that fresh air. Yet if you would gear your car and make some minor chasis adjustments you could have quite a street/strip performer in stock form. Where as the 440 had the low down brute to make up for mis-tuned combinations.

Earlier mentioned was where a 383 was seen beating a 429, I would believe that, 383s love to rev and they love compression. They are very BULLET proof, can take up to 8000 RPMS, a stock 69-70 383HP rated at 335hp could scoot along with a 4 speed and some good gears like 3.91's now if you really wanted to wake it up in stock form then slap in some 4.30s!!

Now as for why I did not choose the 454 on the street, most of the reasons lying in the bottom end, every big block Chevy I seen go down was due to problems in the mains. Chevys did have decent heads from the factory (depending on year) yet for my personal taste they had to run a bit to high of compression in their big blocks to achieve desired power levels. If memory serves me correct a stock 318 Mopar rod is just as strong and thick as a 454 rod.

As to why I did not choose the 460, in my opinion its heads are boat anchors. It also lacks the simplicity of the 440, in the fact it does not take much to make a 440 a VERY hot contented on the street or track, most tricks you can do in your own driveway without spending very much money what so ever! Several other reasons but I dont want to keep typing Great thread by the way!!

[kensadler]

i have a stock 454 in a 93 gmc g3500 weighs app 10,000 lb. loaded (it always is)
also an 82 bronco with a stock 87 commercial duty 460 app. 6800 lb.
also had a 70 roadrunner 440 not stock app. 5600 lb.
love the bronco crazy about the roadrunner but the look on the faces of mustang and camero or whatever owners when this van full of tools and equipment stays right with them is priceless.
as to preferences i just love raw power

[IB Tim]

Thanks for keeping this clean .....Great discussion