Most of the following was kindly offered up by Homespun. I only added a couple sentences for clarity.

Speakers- A Very Brief Look

Everyone knows what a speaker does, but a lot of the terms & hype are confusing. Good speakers will make a cheap HU (head unit, i.e. radio) sound pretty nice, up to a point, but bad speakers make the best of HUs sound like two tin cans & a string.

How do they work? They take electrical energy & turn it into motion, making sound waves. Low tones require a lot of movement on the part of the speaker, therefore the speaker has to be fairly large. The higher the tone, the smaller the movement, so the speaker is smaller.

As you can figure, it's very difficult (actually, impossible) to make a true "one size fits all" speaker. The stuff used by the auto makers has to be cheap, so they use a full-range speaker- one cone, made of paper, has to do everything. Doesn't work well you lose most of the lows & highs of the music. They generally won't handle much power. At low volumes, they can produce a fairly warm in the midrange. But don’t ask them to get out on the high and low ends of the audio frequency spectrum, they just can’t do it with any precision as a general rule.

The logical solution is to use a number of different sizes of speakers to produce the sound. This was posted earlier, but as a refresher, here's the common terms.

Tweeter: high pitched sounds
Mid range: middle sounds (logical!), voices, a majority of the music content
Woofer: lower sounds
Subwoofer: the lowest tones. What you hear (and feel) when the Honda pulls up next to you at the stoplight.

Some speakers or speaker parts are described as "mid-bass", "supertweeter", etc. You can guess what sounds these are supposed to fill in. Lots of hype and marketing here.

Someone had asked what "coaxial" means. Basically the speaker unit has a small speaker, handling the highs & upper mids, mounted on the cone of a larger speaker which does the lower mids & low tones. A "triaxial" unit has a tweeter & a midrange mounted inside a woofer. A four way may have an additional “super tweeter” added. As mention earlier, when speakers are involved, LESS IS USUALLY MORE. A four way is not inherently better than a two way. The opposite is usually true at a given speaker price. Whether two way, three way or five way, the intent is to provide a full range speaker in a single package.

The main signal coming from the HU has all the tones, high to low. Something has to split that up for the tweeters, woofers, etc. That "something" is called a crossover. It is part of a coaxial or triaxial speaker and you don't even need to think about it. "Component" speaker sets with separate speakers will have a crossover box. The wiring is still very easy so don't let components scare you, as they generally produce the best sound. Audio competitors use component speakers. So the best speakers are all component style. That does not however mean that all component speakers are good. Poorly designed component speakers are available on the market.

Sound quality is totally subjective. Your favorite music and your budget are big factors as well. THE BEST WAY TO PICK SPEAKERS IS TO LISTEN TO THEM. Take some CDs to a store & listen, even if you are debating buying off the Internet or mail order. The most $$$$$ speaker won't necessarily make you happy. If your truck is pretty noisy, and you can't/won't/don't want to change this, buying expensive speakers is a waste- buy what will fit easily and will handle the power. A pair of 6 1/2" Pioneer coaxials will fit in the doors, sound decent enough over the mufflers and are low $$$. Attention to detail when installing speakers makes a big difference, along with getting all the rattles out.

What's best- coaxial, triaxial, components? No single answer to this. Pioneer has a good reputation for making relatively inexpensive speakers that sound pretty good and handle good power. You can install 'em in an afternoon & still watch football. They won't do for an audiophile, but keep in mind that to truly get the benefits of, say, MB Quart separates, you'll be working for a number of afternoons, spending money on soundproofing, enclosures, etc., and experimenting with placement, crossover settings, etc. I owned a pair of Altec coaxials in the early '80s which put many high buck component systems to shame. I've since heard better, but not for the $180 I paid for the Altecs, big $ at the time.

Last basic point. Buy speakers with a power rating of at least the same amount as your HU , and preferably a good deal more. Speakers are rated both in CONTINUOUS power and PEAK power. The continuous rating is what you need to look at. Some companies are so unscrupulous in their marketing that they will even provide a rating for the pair of speakers combined power handling. First they lie about the power handling of their single speaker, then they double it. If you find a set of flashy red speakers with aluminum trim for 24.95 that advertise 400W total power handling, be certain that you are not going to get what you wish you were. There are very few speakers under the $50 a pair price point that are worth bringing home.

Info on subwoofers and speaker placement coming later.

 

Good post Homespun,

This is a very complex subject. You made it very understandable. Since I know this thread will head there fast, we might as well cut to the chase and address the issue of specific speaker purchase recommendations. There are thousands of speakers on the market. None of us have heard them all. I can offer up some recommendations for speakers I think you should consider. But you should really listen to them yourself before you lay down the money. I will only offer a couple specific speaker model recommendations. Not because I bought them, and that makes them good. Trust me, I have purchased a few speaker sets I wouldn't wish on anyone.

Internet speaker shopping is a double edged sword. I have bought some brand new audio equipment on the net I did not like at all. That's bad. But I bought the equipment at a deep discount. So I was able to sell it used on eBay months later, sometimes for a profit. That's good. I can't tell you what to do. Personally, I buy my head units at retail stores. I buy all my speakers and AMPs on the net. Manufacturers make minor changes to the product line every year or two. You can buy last years model for half price. You can buy this years model for a deep discount too if you shop.

We'll throw my front component speakers up as an example. Although they are more than any of you want, they provide a good illustration of audio net shopping. CDT Model HD 62 with 1" silk tweeters and SatNet 560 crossovers. I have heard them in competition grade vehicles and I knew I wanted them...... real bad. But almost 500 bucks for a pair of speakers? That's just nuts! They are popular among audiophiles, but are not mainstream so you have to buy them at a highend store, if you can find them at all. They cost $450-480 at the audio boutique, you can get them for about $405 plus shipping with a quick net search. Or I can buy them from a supplier in NY who sells online for $310 delivered to my door, brand new in the unopened box, shipped straight from CDT. Shipped quickly with a receipt, one year warranty, and all the online emails I need to correctly install.

Lets take it one step further. CDT makes component speakers for at least one smaller speaker company. Elemental Designs (eD) in Iowa. eD contracted CDT to make their flagship component speaker set. They are the same speaker I bought with a few minor refinements. Some say they are better than mine. Price? $250 delivered to your door with a three year warranty. We've basically cut the price from $480 to almost half, and retained our warranty. Warranty is the question you want always verify when you see a good price. Sometimes it is weak. In many cases it is only from the retailer. The manufacturer has to provide some protection for their retailers. A few high end manufacturers will go as far as to not provide repair service if you don't buy through an authorized retailer. Not even if you offer to pay for the repair. So be careful.

More typically, I use the net to buy a $150 product I can't get locally, and usually pay maybe $100. Less tension involved with the lower figures. And I try to use sources I have received recommendations for.

Here's the one and only specific speaker recommendation you will get from me. I am only willing to recommend them because I have not found anyone that does not like them yet. (I have used them in three installs). Rockford Fosgate Fanatics 6 1/2" Coaxials Model HPC2206 This recommendation does not extend to any other model number. The HPC line is much better than the FRC line (FRC sold locally) from Rockford. RMS rating is 75Watts. FREQ range is 35Hz to 24kHz. I think the power rating is over rated some. But they are a nice full range speaker that sound excellent in a door installation. I like some older rock and country with drive in it. These speakers shine in that application. Clean vocals. The tweeters are not harsh, and the woofers will reach down fairly low and get punchy where most affordable 6 1/2s coaxials come up way short. Cost about $70 delivered last time I checked. Excellent value. I just pulled a set from my Bronco that is being sold, so I can post a PIC of them if anyone cares to see them.

I also recommend Pioneer 6 1/2s for those on a strict budget. I don't like screechy tweets at all. Pioneers are typically warm speakers. I won't give you a specific model #. Because you can listen to them yourself, and you should.

There are countless other speaker brands. Want an opinion? Throw them up and you'll get one if I have heard them. And an opinion is all it will be. We'd be happy to look at specs and give you our best guess whether the speaker has a chance of sounding pretty good to most people. Take it for what it is worth. I am very distrustful of published specs. Sadly, the specs have turned into a lying contest from many manufacturers. Interested in some 400 Watt speakers for $29.95? Because I can probably find you some advertised. It has gotten way past pathetic.

We'll do some affordable component speaker talk soon. They are the next level up if you have $150+ to spend on front speakers.

 

I have always been concerned with mounting speakers in doors. Is there no risk of damage from getting wet? Mazda had an issue with their optional Bose system door speakers in the 99 Miatas getting water damaged. They ended up replacing them under warantee and adding a styrofoam cup over them to prevent reoccurance. ???

 

AX,

Yeah, there can be. I've seen no particular consistency in auto brands-just depends on the design. There are "cups" available to put over the speaker backs. Some say they affect the sound. I have made simple baffles to put over the tops of the install to deflect water leaking from weatherstrips. (When I found evidence of this) You can tell people of the leaks, but they won't pay to have it fixed, as a rule.

Other options would be a) choosing a unit with a poly cone (which is what gets damaged, not the wiring, crossovers, or driver) or, b) selecting a marine-grade speaker. Choices are limited there, though.

Why are ya listening to the stereo while autocrossing in the rain, anyway???

PS: I've seen serious damage to kick panel installs from water, too. Drains down from the firewall. Older non-A/C cars with kick vents are notorious for this; people tear our the assemblies & install speakers there.

 

AX

That's exactly why mine aren't in the doors. I believe I have much more control over leakage in the kickpanels. It's too bad, because doors are wonderful enclosures if you sound deaden them from rattles. The Rockford Fosgate speakers I mentioned above have metallic cones and are about as waterproof as a non-marine speaker is going to get. I tried them in XTC foam baffles once. It absolutely did affect the sound. Most 6 1/2s are designed to run infinite baffle (I/B). At the very least they need some room if in a sealed enclosure. The .05 cubic feet provided in a baffle is just not enough.

 

Would an overhead console/enclosures be an ideal location? With component speakers are the tweeters and mid/basses expected to be mounted in the same general area/panel or is it best to place them elsewhere?

 

also note some speakers are for freeair type application which would be like in the door or the dash. there are sealed types when need to be mounted to a box that is sealed. ported box type.... and bandpass types which is its mounted inside the box ported on the back side and sealed in the front side.

paper cone speakers will not work with water niether will most foam surrounds!
most speakers will blow only if its operated beyond its frequency range no matter how many watts you put to it, but i wouldnt recommend putting a tweeter on a 1000 watt amp but within reasonable percentage.

if your headunit says its 45x4 thats not actualy wattage thats max.
speakers are the same way i.e. 120w that means 120w max not rms which is actual.

if you want a better all around system i would go with 6 1/2" component set
that will give you some thump but not too much to run you outta the truck.
6x9 are not bad it you can find a place to mount them. personally im going to go with 6 1/2" component with either 6x9 rear or 5 1/4" in the pillar (providing the room)

when shopping for speakers generally bigger magnets usually lead to better sound but not always.

point is if it sounds good in the store it will sound good in the truck within its operating range no matter who makes it.


now for brands
jvc-usually pretty good
kenwood excelon series are nice just cost too much if you ask me
polk-good
cerwin vega-good just pretty costly
mtx-good
this list could be never ending

 

"Would an overhead console/enclosures be an ideal location?"

Perhaps for a nice and warm set of Pioneer coaxials. Maybe not for high performance audio. Component speakers are heavy. One of my CDTs 6 1/2 weighs 2 pounds, and they thump hard. 130dB of Ozzy Osbourne Crazy Train" 12 inches from your head might not be healthy. I can't count how may times I have been jacking with the settings and turned the mute button off for a big surprise.

"With component speakers are the tweeters and mid/basses expected to be mounted in the same general area/panel or is it best to place them elsewhere?"

Opinions vary. With a kick panel install, the mids will eat up the tweets if you co-locate. I may just put my tweeters in the doors. Say, where I accidentally cut out the stock door handle openings in my upholstered panels. Oops, I've got power windows don't I? I can't speak for other brands, but CDT crossovers have a separate set of terminals for what they call imaging tweets. Basically a second set of adjustable tweets up high running across the windshield. You control them with a rotary **** mounted where ever. Tweets can be surface mounted on the A pillars, dash or ??? Just somewhere up high to bring the music off the floor if you do a low install.

I agree with Nixer, all except the part about "if it sounds good in the store, it sounds good in your truck".

If only if were that easy. Install can't be emphasized enough. Speaker location, sound deadening etc make a huge difference. Your equipment could have a very different outcome in AX's panel. Especially when we start talking bass. But your right Nixer. Junk isn't going to sound any better at your house than it did in the store. If that's what you meant to say.

 

With all the components HU Amp speakers each having it's own crossovers, how do you decide which to use, you don't series them I'd assume?

 

AX

You are just full of great questions today. Actually a lot of people do cross the signal over at the HU. I know I use the highpass crossover on my amp, prior to the signal ever getting to the component crossover. You do know that most components almost require an AMP. But I also know you are entertaining the thought of an Alpine 9833. That HU has the V-Drive AMP on board. So you might be just fine if you don't buy a power hungry component set. Actually I'm pretty confident you could. I wouldn't even entertain this possibility on most HUs. The one you are looking at is so powerful and clean it is quite doable. You can't do it with components that demand 75 watts RMS to get in the sweet spot though.

What say you Homespun? AX is looking at some very high end components at the moment (JL XR series, CDTs), but it isn't like he wrote a check for anything yet.

I'm going to go post this question on an off FTE audio forum too.

 

If you are using the amp's crossover do you hardwire directly to the speakers or do you go thru the component crossover as well. I'd expect that every crossover filter the signal goes thru has to affect the signal some? If you don't use the HU crossover, is there a way to bypass it?
The XR specs call for 25-70 watts RMS, the 9833 specs say 26 watts RMS. doable?

 

AX

Most real components won't get out of bed for 25 watts. It won't hurt them, but who wants to spend that knd of dough for something that doesn't perform I'm not going to say no until I get answers from the audio forums I posted it to.

Yes you can bypass the HU crossovers. And you can also hard wire around the component crossovers. Good components have outstanding crossovers so that isn't something I would go out of my way to do.

 

AX, I'll give it a shot. Here's my usual disclaimer: your situation may vary.

a) You can (and generally do) use crossovers in series. There are good & bad characteristics about this. For example:

You run the full range signal into an amp with switchable crossovers and, say, six channels, lots of clean power. (Hey, it's theoretical.) You bridge two channels to mono and pick a crossover point @ 150 Hz, to drive a sub. You use two channels to drive a pair of rear mid-bass, from 150 Hz to 800. You use your last two to drive a pair of components, with 5" mids & tweeters, from 800 Hz up. Here, you would still use the components' own crossovers to separate the signal for the tweeters. The only difference is that instead of getting the full range signal, they are only separating 800 hz- up signal. Depending on the comps' crossover, it may help them live longer & the speakers sound cleaner (this also depends on the amp's internal construction), since they aren't being asked to deal with power-slurping low frequencies.

The bad: anytime you toss another device & more wiring into the mix, you are adding more chances for interference, bad connections, etc. Also, depening on the crossovers involved, you can get some funny effects from mismatched x-over points, diff. slopes, etc. This can usually be fixed with some experimentation, but occasionally diff. parts are needed. Also, there are some good component systems that come with fairly sleazy crossovers. If you are looking at a lot of power, it's usually better to cross it somewhere else first.

Without rattling on, it really depends on how much money & space you have. A separate crossover network (s) and separate amps gives you the most flexibility, but you have to be pretty serious.

Assuming you're somewhat limited on both, I prefer to at least start by using the comp's own crossovers for themselves. The better manufacturers spend time working out the best crossover points for their units. However, I still sort out the sub frequencies, and often the mid-bass, first. In reality, many, perhaps most, amps aren't as flexible (or budgets) as my example, so you use the comp's crossovers. You can also use Bass Blockers to cut off the bottom end of a full-range signal & drive your comps that way. Blockers have their fans & detractors, like everything else.

Hope this makes sense. Mike

 

AX

If you like, you can spend the next couple years tweaking the crossover settings Mike just described. It's part of the challenge of high end audio. Playing with stuff and making it perfect for your install/and tastes.

Mike

There isn't anything cheap about AX. None of the COMP sets he is currently looking at have none of those cheezy crossovers you refer too. Right off the deep end LOL. He's gonna be lecturing us in a couple months. I go to got outside and get some sound deadener installed. Later

I invited my "audio pusher" to join us here on the forum. Hopefully he will before I need my next fix.

 

OK do to popular demand i am here to answer your questions Ok first thing many components sets do need to be used with an amplifier. many hu's just dont have the power to push them to there fullest potential. Though they can still sound good its kinda a waste of money considering u will never get there true performance. Best bet is to run some coaxial speakers like the cdt audio cl-6x's. they also come at a cheap price of only 50 bux shipped and sound great off hu power. If a component set is a must the dls c6 components are decent when run off hu power and are 140 shipped. Another set that is a little better is the cdt ef-61 set at 150 shipped. if u guys have any questions just ask away