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  #16  
Old 12-13-2004, 10:14 PM
Rocklock Rocklock is offline
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300+

Yep, prted and po0lished. CR about 9.7 (that crushed gasket thing gets iffy).
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  #17  
Old 12-14-2004, 12:11 AM
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Originally Posted by handx2
i read an earlier post from someone looking for a performance y-block shop.it kind of peaked my curiosity.exactly how much power can you squeez out of a y-block engine.please forgive me for saying it, but i`ve been kicking around the idea of putting in a big block,for a few extra ponies. but if i could get more power from my 292 without breaking the bank,i would rather keep it.who here has the meanest y-block,and how many h.p. are you making...............wayne
Stock??? About 200 plus on average, but to me Yblock engines are torque engines moreso than horsepower engines, and with a lower rear end ratio could be a mean little quarter mile engine, but as far as a daily driver it woud eat you alive on fuel cost and engine longevity, for starters get your dual exhaust on that thing, my pickup has the right front exhast hammered in then welded closed, and the passenger side has a pipe welded on and the muffler shop used a pipe bender tp curl it underneath, just on top of my Ibeam of the front end, this is real real cheap, maybe 200 dollars??, setting your points as close as you can will help too, sure you will go through points faster, but they're cheap, also bring out those air idle mixture screws on that carb to make it run it's fastest, and on you primary wiring? If it's old, put new!!!. One thing many people overlook is this, let's say they have a big monster 425 horse engine, but how fast is response from idle or take off?? Tell ya what with those few tricks i told you about above, i've put some powerfull cars under the table for maybe 1 street block...Janet
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  #18  
Old 12-16-2004, 12:16 AM
pcmenten pcmenten is offline
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Originally Posted by handx2
my engine has been rebuilt to stock specks.all i had to do is vat the block and hone the cylinders.the heads were also reworked.every thing in the engine is stock size and new.as far as bolt ons,i don`t have any yet.i`m about to upgrade to the petronix ignition.i ran a new single 2 1/2 '' exhaust with a two stage flowmaster.i wanted duals,but the exhaust guy said i couldn`t because of the three speed linkage.i would love to put in an auto tranny,but have had trouble locating one from a y-block truck.i also put on a new , stock type carb.what would be my next best step, after the petronix upgrade ....................wayne
Since your engine is rebuilt already, I'd say skip trying to put in a new cam, but you could try putting higher ratio rockers on the intake valves to get more lift and duration.

I'd also suggest raising the compression ratio. Mill your heads, or swap to heads with smaller chambers. You probably have C1TE heads. Look for C1AE, 113, ECZ-G, or ECZ-C heads. The C1AE may be the best choice in your case.

A Pertronix and a 4bbl would finish up the parts swap. Then tune the engine (rejet the carb, recurve the distributor).
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  #19  
Old 12-21-2004, 02:43 AM
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When I get back from Iraq you can bet I will be pushing over 290 HP out of my 292. I already have all of the parts you guys have said to get and I have the correct engine and headers to start with. I cannot wait to see that old truck fly. BTW I have missed you guys a bunch and cannot wait until we get a permanent internet connection in our office. Untill I get back with lots of money, already set aside 8,000 so far for the rebuild and 10,000 is my goal. No limits and one bad *** rebuild I am going to do my self. Oh its great over here as long as you do not want beer and you do not like to look at woman. Riiiiiight. Ed
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  #20  
Old 12-21-2004, 07:06 AM
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Originally Posted by Fordication
When I get back from Iraq you can bet I will be pushing over 290 HP out of my 292. I already have all of the parts you guys have said to get and I have the correct engine and headers to start with. I cannot wait to see that old truck fly. BTW I have missed you guys a bunch and cannot wait until we get a permanent internet connection in our office. Untill I get back with lots of money, already set aside 8,000 so far for the rebuild and 10,000 is my goal. No limits and one bad *** rebuild I am going to do my self. Oh its great over here as long as you do not want beer and you do not like to look at woman. Riiiiiight. Ed
Hey, look you take care of yourself over there! Us folks will be waiting for you, and you can bet i haven't forgotten you. Your truck will be here a watin on ya. Just be carefull, remember people like me care about you, i remember when you said you was leaving and i did not forget about you....Janet
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  #21  
Old 12-21-2004, 08:41 AM
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My prayers are with you, Ed. Stay safe, brother.
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  #22  
Old 12-21-2004, 06:20 PM
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I read in a "Y" block overhaul book that I have that a 312 has developed as much as 340 horsepower.
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  #23  
Old 12-21-2004, 08:18 PM
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Good Luck

Hey, Ed, Keep your head down over there. We appreciate all of the troops, law dogs and firefighters.

Get in touch whenever you can and especially when back in Deep East Texas. I'm just up 59 in North East Texas (Longview) would like to buy you a beer ( A??? did I say A?) and talk Y Blocks in person.

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  #24  
Old 12-21-2004, 10:27 PM
pcmenten pcmenten is offline
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Hey Carl, Why do you think it's hard to get 1hp per c.i.? From what I've seen, the y-block heads are pretty good flowing parts., better than most 302/5.0 heads!

The flow seems to hit an inflection point at .450" of valve lift, but by that point, they're already going at 185 CFM, and below that point, they've been outflowing most heads except the 351 Cleveland heads.

Either way, I think a better question is; how does a guy maximize torque in these engines. That's where the real action is at.
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  #25  
Old 12-22-2004, 12:23 PM
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a response, but not from Carl

pcmenten, if you have been obtaining your information from my page on Y Block power potential (http://www.m571.com/yblock/power.htm) which indicates that the Y Block G heads are capable of 360 hp, remember that you have to be able to flow that thru the whole intake tract in the real world. The formulas and all say that 175 cfm is what you need to make 360 hp, and the BARE HEAD will flow that much, but the flow is lessened when your start bolting intake manifolds, carburetors, and air filters to the engine.

Note that Ford had to put a blower on the 312 to get near this figure, which gives you an idea of what happens when you put an intake and a teapot on the motor.

You also have to consider the pumping loss that occurs when the motor has to work with the stock exhaust system, rather than a set of dyno headers. All of his adds up pretty quickly, because we are mainly working with parts based on 50s technology, where flow's relationship to power was not as well understood as it is now, 50 years later.

As you say, the head does fall off after so much lift, but working with a Blue Thunder, a large carb, and a good cam with the stock heads would appear to be the way to begin. But the easy horsepower, dollar wise, beyond this would appear to me to be one of Mummert's porting jobs.
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  #26  
Old 12-23-2004, 02:03 AM
pcmenten pcmenten is offline
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Great! Let's argue.

First off, nice work on your site. You put a lot of thought into it.

I saw Mummert's web site and his flow numbers for the stock ECZ-G heads before I saw your web site, and I knew immediately that these heads had amazing flow despite their strange looking stacked ports. The data on your site confirmed my first impressions.

I had studied on small Ford heads before and so I knew that the ECZ-G heads had amazing low-lift flow. The 'area under the curve' for the 312 heads was exceptional, better than most Ford 302/5.0 heads and as good as the aftermarket Windsor heads.

And as for making 1 hp per cubic inch, that's just a matter of tuning the peak torque to 5250 rpms. But I almost never have my engine turning that fast, so I'm thinking of ways to improve low and mid-range torque.

I believe that Mummert can improve the peak airflow of these heads (and peak power), but I question whether he improves the efficiency of these heads. What I mean by that is the anti-reversion characteristics of ports on small (5 liter) engine can get ruined when they're optimized for maximum airflow. You lose low- and mid-range torque and ecomomy, for a smallish gain in peak horsepower.

David Vizard did a write-up of this subject and it was a real education for me. He shows how to port to improve torque through a wide range of engine speeds, and the techniques are definitely not intuitive.

So, when I suggested that I would port with a flat file, I was thinking of this sort of subtle tweaking of an already good design; keep the port velocity high by keeping it small but smooth flowing.

I'm thinking that the bends in the intake port that go around the pushrod hole and the head bolt hole could be slightly shaved by using a flat file. Using a flat file would ensure that you keep the angle of the modification in line with the port, and that the work you do stays relatively flat. This sort of 'line-of-sight' porting might help keep reversion low. It would be quick, easy to do right, and get a big improvement for a small amount of material removed.

So, that's my point; the stock heads don't need much help, and I think that a fella could get some really nice power just by using the right factory parts.

The other important aspect of y-block head design is chamber shape. All y-blocks have 'quench' heads. So, getting back to the original question of this thread, to make torque in a y-block, you have to zero-deck the cylinders to exploit the quench design.

As for intakes, I'll be using an iron intake on my truck. I'm sure the Blue Thunder y-block intake makes more peak power, but I want a nice warm intake to help with fuel vaporization. I believe that an iron intake would be less variable in temperature than an aluminum one.

I'll bet that a well-tuned 292 could make well above 300 ft./lbs of torque through a wide rpm range, say, 2000 to 4500 RPM or more.

Use ceramic coated tri-y headers with 1 1/2" primaries, either one of the iron 4 bbl intakes, and a good ignition, and then tune the engine to the max.
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  #27  
Old 12-25-2004, 10:51 PM
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PC: thanks for checking out my site -- it would be great if I got around to finishing something on it...

First, I agree that Vizard has some great ideas and is also good at pointing out basics that are generally left out of a lot of considerations.

Regarding your issues about torque and maximum flow potential, you are right on -- to a certain point. If you increase max rpm flow by hogging out the ports, you will lose low end torque for sure. This is because, when the cross sectional areas of the port are increased, the velocity decreases (a basic teaching of the venturi principle) and when the mixture flow is too slow, then the fuel falls out of atomization and the inertia of the moving column of air fuel mixture looses its beneficial effects.

If the porting work concentrates on removing flow inhibiting sharp corners adn abrupt transitions (e.g., the transition from the port pocket to the valve seat area, where there is commonly a lip between the cast part of the port and the machined part -- removing this is commonly called "pocket porting" and looses no low end, but enhances high end) then no low end losses will occur, but the higher end can benefit.

From the descriptions of Mummert's work, his street porting seems to me to concentrate much more on carefully optimizing the existing port shape, rather than "hogging out" to the largest size. In fact, the descriptions of previous port work that did feature hogging didn't seem to make either the flow numbers or the power of Mummert's work, from what I could see. Mummert seems to have appreciated what the Ford engineers were trying to accomplish from the outset, and concentrated on optimizing their design by eliminating the production compromizes and making small changes where these were beneficial, such as angling the face of the head bolt boss.

I think that, if one were to maintain the cross sectional areas of the port and optimize the port flow by working with pocket porting, backcuting valves, and doing good seat work, which are methods of increasing low valve lift flow adn making low end power, there would be some low end gains. How much and whether it would be worthwhile might be a good question, but "optimizing" carries thenotion of "Can it be made better?", while whether it is worth it in the user's mind to do the work is properly addressed by the question of "is it cost effective?" The answer to the first question is undoubtedly yes, IMHO, but the anser to the second is a personal assessment.

Your point about quench is certainly right, the zero decking based on composition gaskets and shooting for a quench value in the .035" and .040" range certainly seems like an unquestionably correct statement to me. One might be inclined to think about steering toward the .040" figure a little more closely if the motor was spinning faster, but quench can only do wonderful things, I think.

I hope I haven't disapointed you by my lack of argument. ;^D
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  #28  
Old 03-06-2005, 01:51 PM
634x4nut 634x4nut is offline
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I have a 292 with ECZ-G heads, Sanderson headers with dual flowmasters, factory cast four barrel intake with an Edelbrock 500cfm, petronixs electronic ignition and a Borg Warner T98 four speeed and 3.89 gears. Around 250-275 horsepower and tons of torque. A real tough powerhouse. Love the old yblocks!!!
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  #29  
Old 03-06-2005, 03:37 PM
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Originally Posted by 634x4nut
I have a 292 with ECZ-G heads, Sanderson headers with dual flowmasters, factory cast four barrel intake with an Edelbrock 500cfm, petronixs electronic ignition and a Borg Warner T98 four speeed and 3.89 gears. Around 250-275 horsepower and tons of torque. A real tough powerhouse. Love the old yblocks!!!
Im working on the same combo right now. But with a bigger cam and doing some light porting and flow work on the heads. Im hoping for 300 @ the flywheel and all the midrange torque I can get, which should be quite a bit. My truck will never haul any loads, so Im not too concerned with low end torque. The basic design of this motor will give plenty anyway unless I get stupid with the parts I use.

Im also toying with the idea of 2 small turbos running off the flanges where the crossover pipe would be. The bottom end on these motors should handle moderate boost easily, and room for an intercooler should be easy to find. So far, my design is working out pretty well, just have to get out there and start doing it. HP? Who knows.

As for stock manifolds and dual exhaust, it can be done pretty easily. I modified my stock truck manifold, welded a flange from a right side manifold to clear the clutch parts, and BAM!! Dual exhaust, with the crossover pipe still on cause it looks cool

The modified manifold would look factory if I ever get around to grinding the welds.....
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  #30  
Old 03-08-2005, 12:58 PM
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How much hp is enuf?

Horsepower versus dollars - the real question when starting to modify an engine is to figure out where you want to wind up at the end of the process.

These days, it seems like there's a never ending stream of people who claim to generate mega-horsepower out of engines - even without nitrous it seems like everyone thinks their engines make 400 - 600 hp, not to mention all the magazine articles that claim upwards of 900 horses on gasoline. And maybe they do.

It sure sounds enticing to have a vehicle that can light the tires at will (oh yeah!). But burning up a set of really expensive tires doing just that, not to mention the wear and tear on the drivetrain, would keep me from doing that anyway (well, some of the time, anyway), not to mention the wear and tear on the points on my driver's license. So, at the end of the day, I just want something that starts, sounds good, and has enough power have a little fun with it now and then and can intimidate the heck out of the little old lady in the Toyota Camry next to me at the light.

Trying to build a 300+ horse y-block (which is possible, apparently) probably isn't a very cost effective alternative to high horsepower. Its a lot cheaper to find a bigger motor (351, 460 etc). that will have a lot more horsepower to start with and build from there.

But for me, that's not the real issue. I have come to really like my y-block 292: the harley-like sound is pretty cool, especially cruising in town, and when the top end is cleaned up with some nice valve covers and 3 - 2's or a four-barrel (or maybe two of them), its a pretty nice looking engine too (note - only, however, with that goofy-looking cross-over exhaust pipe exorcised from the engine compartment? I don't object to anyone jerking their vintage engine out of their truck and replacing it with something bigger (or more modern, like those girlie 302's mentioned in other threads) if that's what they want. Matter of fact, that was my first plan - buy the truck, throw out the y-block, and put in maybe a 460 (or even a girlie-type 302 - I like their exhaust sound too!). But after driving the truck for a year, my vision of my truck evolved to a 60's type semi-custom truck, one that looks pretty stock with the exception of a slightly lowered stance, some vintage-style wheels and an upgraded y-block. $500 - $900 will buy a good manifold and carb setup, maybe even a set of headers or rams horn exhaust manifolds, and some nice looking valve covers (not all brand-new, of course for that kind of $$$) which will make a y-block look pretty nice under the hood. It won't win any races, but then, how many of us really do that with our trucks anyway - and those that do, probably have a much larger budget than I'm working with. However, my y-block has enough torque in stock fashion to break the rear tires loose - do I really need to boil them until they fry like an egg?

Speaking of nice looking engines, check out the really nice looking y-block on Earl's world (and John Mummert's site as well for other examples). The yellow effie engine blocks are cool - my '59 292 came with a Ford red engine (under the Ford red of the valve covers is that medium metallic blue that I've seen on several y-block valve covers, but a yellow block looks so much nicer. Yellow isn't a '59 block color, but I almost wish it was. I think I have yellow block envy.

As much as I like mega-horsepower, I'm pretty happy with the decisions I've made for my truck. And isn't thats what its about, figuring out what makes you happy, then going for it?

PS - anybody ever thought about putting a Buick-type turbo charger on a y-block motor? Saw one on e-bay recently (bid up to $100, sure it went higher) and thought, wow, that could be really cool on a y-block (especially when the factory manifold as a front-engine exhaust port (from the cross-over pipe) already in place.
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Old 03-08-2005, 12:58 PM
 
 
 
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