Privacy Experts Shun Black Boxes
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Privacy Experts Shun Black Boxes
<!--StartFragment --><!--StartFragment -->Friday, September 10, 2004
<!--StartFragment -->By Kelley Beaucar Vlahos (Fox News)
WASHINGTON — Some safety and privacy experts are reacting with apprehension, others with all out condemnation over a recent ruling by the National Transportation Safety Board to require electronic data recorders or "black boxes" in all new cars manufactured in the United States.
"I take offense that this personal property of individuals is now being designed by the federal government," said Jim Harper, privacy attorney and editor of Privacilla.org.
Black boxes, or "EDRs" have been fitted into every General Motors car in its 2004 line and is in a number of Ford models — about 15 percent of all vehicles on the road today, according to road safety experts.
EDRs are certainly not new. Information gathered on black boxes — typically everything from speed, brake pressure, seat belt use and air bag deployment — has already been used in determining guilt in criminal and civil cases across the country.
Proponents, including the NTSB and road safety advocates, say the data collected on these black boxes is valuable for studying how accidents happen and how to make roads and cars safer. EDR data has been used for years to fine tune air bag efficiency.
"We think for understanding the dynamics of crashes, the information here can be very, very helpful," said Lon Anderson, director of AAA Mid-Atlantic. On the other hand, Anderson said, "We think it would be very wrong if the data in these boxes was deemed to be public information, open to anybody and the owner had no say over it."
The NTSB recommended in early August that black boxes be mandated, but critics say dealers are not now required to alert car owners that their car has the ability to collect the information. Currently only California has a law requiring car dealers to notify buyers when their cars are outfitted with an EDR.
Owners also have no legal protections to keep them from being forced to hand over that information to another party if a court order demanded it.
"I think (owners) have to be told of whatever data there is — and what is being retained longterm. What are the storage conditions? Will they keep it confidential or will they have to release information to anybody?" said professor John Soma, director of the Privacy Center at Denver University.
"Without all of these concerns written into it, then obviously the recommendation is completely unacceptable," he said.
According to Joe Osterman, director of highway safety at the NTSB, the recommendation was inspired in part by a tragic auto accident involving a 86-year-old man who drove his car into a crowded Santa Monica farmers’ market last summer, killing 10 and injuring 63.
Osterman said a black box in the car might have not saved the people in the crash, but would have allowed investigators to find out how it happened and how cars could be better designed to reduce the likelihood of greater injury in the future.
"We have a long history of using data recorders in other modes of transportation and found them extremely useful," Osterman told FOXNews.com, pointing to aircraft. "Unless we have all vehicles equipped, you will not have a true picture of what is happening on the highways, in a broader sense."
Phil Haseline, president of the Automobile Coalition for Traffic Safety, which represents car manufacturers, said automakers are still debating the value of EDRs, and the idea of requiring them. Haseline said he is a proponent of black boxes but has certain reservations about the NTSB’s recommendation.
He, like others, said he would like to first see standardization of the type of data collected in the black boxes, much like a recommendation made in June by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration. Right now, dueling technologies record different things.
Then, Haseline said, he would prefer that laws address the issue of a car owner’s knowledge of the EDRs in their vehicles, and that car owners have ownership of the data once its recorded.
"I can understand [NTSB's desire] to have this information, but from a practical perspective, it is premature at this point to require it," he said.
While privacy experts say jokes like "'big brother' is riding shotgun" aren’t funny, the technology already is being used to monitor certain drivers.
Global positioning systems are being used by car rental companies to track where renters are going and how fast they are driving. GPS also allows rental car companies to shut off the engine of a car and lock a renter out of it. It’s the same technology used by OnStar, which promises to be a guardian angel for car owners who are locked out or report a vehicle stolen.
Parents of teenagers have also begun to use black boxes marketed by Road Safety International in Thousand Oaks, Calif. This item, which can be placed under the hood, is able to track the driver’s use of a seatbelt, excessive speed, hard cornering, braking and even unsafe backing, and can store hours of information for review later.
Privacy experts warn that once cars are outfitted for the most limited data recording, the government will find a way to argue it’s for drivers’ "own good" to collect more. They point to a push in recent years to install GPS in all cars so that emergency officials can easily find incapacitated accident victims.
"When you are telling someone it is for their own good, then it should be their own choice, they should be able to say ‘no,’" said professor Yale Kamisar of the University of Michigan Law School. "None of these things work out the way they are supposed to. Why should we believe all of these assurances when they haven’t been honored in the past?"
<!--StartFragment -->By Kelley Beaucar Vlahos (Fox News)
WASHINGTON — Some safety and privacy experts are reacting with apprehension, others with all out condemnation over a recent ruling by the National Transportation Safety Board to require electronic data recorders or "black boxes" in all new cars manufactured in the United States.
"I take offense that this personal property of individuals is now being designed by the federal government," said Jim Harper, privacy attorney and editor of Privacilla.org.
Black boxes, or "EDRs" have been fitted into every General Motors car in its 2004 line and is in a number of Ford models — about 15 percent of all vehicles on the road today, according to road safety experts.
EDRs are certainly not new. Information gathered on black boxes — typically everything from speed, brake pressure, seat belt use and air bag deployment — has already been used in determining guilt in criminal and civil cases across the country.
Proponents, including the NTSB and road safety advocates, say the data collected on these black boxes is valuable for studying how accidents happen and how to make roads and cars safer. EDR data has been used for years to fine tune air bag efficiency.
"We think for understanding the dynamics of crashes, the information here can be very, very helpful," said Lon Anderson, director of AAA Mid-Atlantic. On the other hand, Anderson said, "We think it would be very wrong if the data in these boxes was deemed to be public information, open to anybody and the owner had no say over it."
The NTSB recommended in early August that black boxes be mandated, but critics say dealers are not now required to alert car owners that their car has the ability to collect the information. Currently only California has a law requiring car dealers to notify buyers when their cars are outfitted with an EDR.
Owners also have no legal protections to keep them from being forced to hand over that information to another party if a court order demanded it.
"I think (owners) have to be told of whatever data there is — and what is being retained longterm. What are the storage conditions? Will they keep it confidential or will they have to release information to anybody?" said professor John Soma, director of the Privacy Center at Denver University.
"Without all of these concerns written into it, then obviously the recommendation is completely unacceptable," he said.
According to Joe Osterman, director of highway safety at the NTSB, the recommendation was inspired in part by a tragic auto accident involving a 86-year-old man who drove his car into a crowded Santa Monica farmers’ market last summer, killing 10 and injuring 63.
Osterman said a black box in the car might have not saved the people in the crash, but would have allowed investigators to find out how it happened and how cars could be better designed to reduce the likelihood of greater injury in the future.
"We have a long history of using data recorders in other modes of transportation and found them extremely useful," Osterman told FOXNews.com, pointing to aircraft. "Unless we have all vehicles equipped, you will not have a true picture of what is happening on the highways, in a broader sense."
Phil Haseline, president of the Automobile Coalition for Traffic Safety, which represents car manufacturers, said automakers are still debating the value of EDRs, and the idea of requiring them. Haseline said he is a proponent of black boxes but has certain reservations about the NTSB’s recommendation.
He, like others, said he would like to first see standardization of the type of data collected in the black boxes, much like a recommendation made in June by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration. Right now, dueling technologies record different things.
Then, Haseline said, he would prefer that laws address the issue of a car owner’s knowledge of the EDRs in their vehicles, and that car owners have ownership of the data once its recorded.
"I can understand [NTSB's desire] to have this information, but from a practical perspective, it is premature at this point to require it," he said.
While privacy experts say jokes like "'big brother' is riding shotgun" aren’t funny, the technology already is being used to monitor certain drivers.
Global positioning systems are being used by car rental companies to track where renters are going and how fast they are driving. GPS also allows rental car companies to shut off the engine of a car and lock a renter out of it. It’s the same technology used by OnStar, which promises to be a guardian angel for car owners who are locked out or report a vehicle stolen.
Parents of teenagers have also begun to use black boxes marketed by Road Safety International in Thousand Oaks, Calif. This item, which can be placed under the hood, is able to track the driver’s use of a seatbelt, excessive speed, hard cornering, braking and even unsafe backing, and can store hours of information for review later.
Privacy experts warn that once cars are outfitted for the most limited data recording, the government will find a way to argue it’s for drivers’ "own good" to collect more. They point to a push in recent years to install GPS in all cars so that emergency officials can easily find incapacitated accident victims.
"When you are telling someone it is for their own good, then it should be their own choice, they should be able to say ‘no,’" said professor Yale Kamisar of the University of Michigan Law School. "None of these things work out the way they are supposed to. Why should we believe all of these assurances when they haven’t been honored in the past?"
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11-03-2004, 09:31 PM
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11-03-2004, 11:06 PM
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11-04-2004, 07:03 AM
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Originally Posted by PSD 60L Fx4
I do think it is a very valid concern....but
Thankfully, for every technology that is employed against the consumer, there will be another to counteract it. No matter how advanced things get, that will never change
If we simply learn, we will never need to be worried about such things
Thankfully, for every technology that is employed against the consumer, there will be another to counteract it. No matter how advanced things get, that will never change
If we simply learn, we will never need to be worried about such things
I can see it now, DEALER: Sir, in our attempt to unload info from your snitch box we found it unable to give us anything because it was severly damaged by someone. Do you know who or how this happened? OWNER: Darn, I'm sorry but I loaded some bricks inside my truck because I didn't want them to get wet or dirty. I had to use all available space (even under the seats) and I must have accidentally dropped one or 20 on it. I am sooo sorry...... I also think that 120v would do the trick don't you? A random targeted lightning strike that only hit the box? You know how fickle mother nature is!
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11-04-2004, 10:31 AM
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11-04-2004, 10:35 AM
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More than not, it will happen....but not sure how a Black box is going to keep grandpa or grandma from havin a stroke or heart attack and driving through a crowd or the drunk that had to many at the bar from drivin down the wrong way on the HYW and killin a family of 5 or a teenage kid takin his or her car street racin, losin control and runnin through the crowd that is watchin....you get my point, it isnt going to make the car safer...it is like this.....GUNS dont kill people, PEOPLE KILL PEOPLE....they are being put in there so the insurance companies can place blame on you or your family, so that they dont have to pay the outragous settelments that the courts are handing out...but isnt that why we pay for insurance???....we pay for insurance in case something happens, and when it does, they look for ways to keep from havin to keep there end of the bargin!!!....I guess when you got the money(insurance companies) you can lobby for any thing you like and get it pushed through congress....I know there are alot of people out there lookin to scam the insurance companies and they are lookin out for themsevles, I dont blame them for this....I could go on and on....this is just my short take on this subject...I could be dead wrong, but I think it is close to the black(bullseye). Tim
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11-04-2004, 10:56 AM
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Well, having them installed could work in your favor too.
I'm going through a law suit now where I witnessed some yahoo spin his car behind me on the highway and crash into a light pole. We stopped to see if we could help but they were pinned into the car. We waited for the fire and rescue and CHP and I left a statement as did a couple other folks. For some reason the officer only put my statement in the report along with his finding - speeding and an unsafe turning movement. A month later I get a letter in the mail from yahoo's lawyer saying "his" investigation showed I was at fault, and would I please fork over $1,000,000.
I guess they thought that it would be their word against mine. They didn't know that I had additional witnesses in my car, plus the unbiased testimony of a few other folks in other cars. None the less it has been dragging on for almost two years now and we are scheduled to go to court in February.
If yahoo's car had a black box in it, it would have clearly showed that he was doing 85 to 90 MPH versus the 70 MPH that he claimed and the fact that he had been sawing through traffic like a lumberjack and weaving side to side for the past few miles.
So while I'm not really fond of the idea of having big brother in my car, I do see some utility there.
I'm going through a law suit now where I witnessed some yahoo spin his car behind me on the highway and crash into a light pole. We stopped to see if we could help but they were pinned into the car. We waited for the fire and rescue and CHP and I left a statement as did a couple other folks. For some reason the officer only put my statement in the report along with his finding - speeding and an unsafe turning movement. A month later I get a letter in the mail from yahoo's lawyer saying "his" investigation showed I was at fault, and would I please fork over $1,000,000.
I guess they thought that it would be their word against mine. They didn't know that I had additional witnesses in my car, plus the unbiased testimony of a few other folks in other cars. None the less it has been dragging on for almost two years now and we are scheduled to go to court in February.
If yahoo's car had a black box in it, it would have clearly showed that he was doing 85 to 90 MPH versus the 70 MPH that he claimed and the fact that he had been sawing through traffic like a lumberjack and weaving side to side for the past few miles.
So while I'm not really fond of the idea of having big brother in my car, I do see some utility there.
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11-04-2004, 01:40 PM
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The ambuliance chaser, oops, I mean attorney, "is just doing his job" and as such can't be sued. The yahoo loser who crashed doesn't have any money and suing isn't worthwhile in that case either.
The only bright point in the whole story was that they had just dropped off their 8 week old daughter at the sister inlaw's place so that they could go out an celebrate yahoo loser's 21st or 22nd birthday. My daughter was also 8 or 9 weeks old at the time and so that little piece of good luck really meant a lot.
This guy was so lucky. Where he struck the pole was on the driver's side right about even with the steering wheel. After skidding for 180 ft or more the car was still moving about 30 MPH or so when it struck the pole so it wrapped around fairly well. Had it hit the pole a foot and a half further back on the car I doubt that he would have survived.
Thankfully I have good insurance and good witnesses so they are behind me all the way and have told yahoo and his lawyer that there would be no settlement.
After watching yahoo's wife at the deposition, I'm actually kind of looking forward to going to court and watching the slice and dice as our team exposes just how badly she's lying through her buck teeth.
Still, I have faith in humanity at large and would stop again if I'm ever unlucky enough to witness another accident or come upon someone needing assistance.
The only bright point in the whole story was that they had just dropped off their 8 week old daughter at the sister inlaw's place so that they could go out an celebrate yahoo loser's 21st or 22nd birthday. My daughter was also 8 or 9 weeks old at the time and so that little piece of good luck really meant a lot.
This guy was so lucky. Where he struck the pole was on the driver's side right about even with the steering wheel. After skidding for 180 ft or more the car was still moving about 30 MPH or so when it struck the pole so it wrapped around fairly well. Had it hit the pole a foot and a half further back on the car I doubt that he would have survived.
Thankfully I have good insurance and good witnesses so they are behind me all the way and have told yahoo and his lawyer that there would be no settlement.
After watching yahoo's wife at the deposition, I'm actually kind of looking forward to going to court and watching the slice and dice as our team exposes just how badly she's lying through her buck teeth.
Still, I have faith in humanity at large and would stop again if I'm ever unlucky enough to witness another accident or come upon someone needing assistance.
#11
11-04-2004, 04:06 PM
The black boxes are no different than the "robo cops" that take your picture for speeding or running red lights.
Humans are notoriously bad witnesses. I have personal professional experience in this area. Not only are "eye" witnesses not reliable, but people will lie if they even remotely think it is in their best interest. I for one, believe in personal responsibility. If I screw up intentionally or not, then I will pay the price. I am ok with the black boxes.
Darryl, I wish I had your faith in humanity.
Humans are notoriously bad witnesses. I have personal professional experience in this area. Not only are "eye" witnesses not reliable, but people will lie if they even remotely think it is in their best interest. I for one, believe in personal responsibility. If I screw up intentionally or not, then I will pay the price. I am ok with the black boxes.
Darryl, I wish I had your faith in humanity.
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11-04-2004, 09:03 PM
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Daryl, good luck w/ the lawsuit.
As far as the "black boxes" ... they'll be read from automatic highway readers, and probably starting in California first. The hammer idea is for naught. Eventually it will be by satellite. Eventually, way in the future, all human-kind will be known by location, and buying or selling of anykind (economic survival) will only be possible by your electronic ... "identification". In my opinion, anyway. (Last couple of verses in the book of Revelation ... check it out). Predicts the future black box.
As far as the "black boxes" ... they'll be read from automatic highway readers, and probably starting in California first. The hammer idea is for naught. Eventually it will be by satellite. Eventually, way in the future, all human-kind will be known by location, and buying or selling of anykind (economic survival) will only be possible by your electronic ... "identification". In my opinion, anyway. (Last couple of verses in the book of Revelation ... check it out). Predicts the future black box.
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11-05-2004, 06:18 AM
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Originally Posted by PowerStroke King
Daryl, good luck w/ the lawsuit.
As far as the "black boxes" ... they'll be read from automatic highway readers, and probably starting in California first. The hammer idea is for naught. Eventually it will be by satellite. Eventually, way in the future, all human-kind will be known by location, and buying or selling of anykind (economic survival) will only be possible by your electronic ... "identification". In my opinion, anyway. (Last couple of verses in the book of Revelation ... check it out). Predicts the future black box.
As far as the "black boxes" ... they'll be read from automatic highway readers, and probably starting in California first. The hammer idea is for naught. Eventually it will be by satellite. Eventually, way in the future, all human-kind will be known by location, and buying or selling of anykind (economic survival) will only be possible by your electronic ... "identification". In my opinion, anyway. (Last couple of verses in the book of Revelation ... check it out). Predicts the future black box.
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