Ethanol
#16
10-28-2004, 12:14 PM
I agree with superrangerman2002,
It is POSSIBLE to run E85 through a vehicle that isn't designed for it, just not good for it. you can probably get by with it for short term uses, and when you are mixing it with straight gasoline (maybe 50% ethanol in your tank). I live here in the midwest so my car always has a tank full of 10% ethanol in it, and do not believe this small of percentage will cause any harm.
fellro86,
Why don't you tell us the "difference in chemical structures", and why ethanol is not corrosive. Because I have always heard that it will eat through rubber gas lines, etc.
It is POSSIBLE to run E85 through a vehicle that isn't designed for it, just not good for it. you can probably get by with it for short term uses, and when you are mixing it with straight gasoline (maybe 50% ethanol in your tank). I live here in the midwest so my car always has a tank full of 10% ethanol in it, and do not believe this small of percentage will cause any harm.
fellro86,
Why don't you tell us the "difference in chemical structures", and why ethanol is not corrosive. Because I have always heard that it will eat through rubber gas lines, etc.
#17
10-28-2004, 04:49 PM
Originally Posted by superrangerman2002
You must have misunderstood my comment, I never said you couldnt use 10% ethanol.
The above is not true, as any and every FFV has a manifold heater and other special componets, especially seals, even fuel injected models.
FFV vehicles have sensors that adjust the timing according to how much e85 is in the tank in comparison to regular gas.
Simply reprograming the ecu on a non-FFV could allow you to run e85, but you couldn't run regular gas as the timing would be way out of wack, unless you re-programed the Ecu back.
I know that my '00 Taurus FFV gets 3-5 mpg less on E-85 than regular gas. (<--example of a vehicle to run E-85 safely in)
The above is not true, as any and every FFV has a manifold heater and other special componets, especially seals, even fuel injected models.
FFV vehicles have sensors that adjust the timing according to how much e85 is in the tank in comparison to regular gas.
Simply reprograming the ecu on a non-FFV could allow you to run e85, but you couldn't run regular gas as the timing would be way out of wack, unless you re-programed the Ecu back.
I know that my '00 Taurus FFV gets 3-5 mpg less on E-85 than regular gas. (<--example of a vehicle to run E-85 safely in)
As far as the sensors go, they are O2 sensors, american cars have them also. To run alcohol you just need to richen the fuel mixture.
Ok, I may have been a little optimistic about the mpg loss for E85.
#18
10-28-2004, 04:58 PM
Originally Posted by 76390FE
I agree with superrangerman2002,
It is POSSIBLE to run E85 through a vehicle that isn't designed for it, just not good for it. you can probably get by with it for short term uses, and when you are mixing it with straight gasoline (maybe 50% ethanol in your tank). I live here in the midwest so my car always has a tank full of 10% ethanol in it, and do not believe this small of percentage will cause any harm.
fellro86,
Why don't you tell us the "difference in chemical structures", and why ethanol is not corrosive. Because I have always heard that it will eat through rubber gas lines, etc.
It is POSSIBLE to run E85 through a vehicle that isn't designed for it, just not good for it. you can probably get by with it for short term uses, and when you are mixing it with straight gasoline (maybe 50% ethanol in your tank). I live here in the midwest so my car always has a tank full of 10% ethanol in it, and do not believe this small of percentage will cause any harm.
fellro86,
Why don't you tell us the "difference in chemical structures", and why ethanol is not corrosive. Because I have always heard that it will eat through rubber gas lines, etc.
#19
10-29-2004, 11:18 AM
As I had said, natural rubber dries out, it doesn't actually "eat" it, it dries out and flakes away. I was referring more to the metal parts of the fuel sysyem, mainly steel lines.Natural rubber WILL be affected by the ethanol, but it takes all the water out of it, leaving it to crack and disintegrate. Neoprene is not affected the same way. Ethanol is a more stable alcohol, therefore less corosive, i.e METAL, (not rubber). Last time I checked, rubber did not corrode. Methanol is less stable, chemically needing to add to it's molecular makeup to become fully stable. That is why it is more corrosive, it is trying to satisfy it's molecular instability. It's all basic high school science. I'd have to dig out the full molecular structure and all that to show it, but you have to understand the molecular theories to know if I'm bs'ing you or not. For the racers that run Methanol, they all have to go to stainless steel lines to run it for any length of time, or it will eat through the steel lines. Ethanol does not. I know plenty of racers in South Dakota on the Wissota circuit running E85 for the street stock class, and have not gone to the elaborate methanol setups. There is a difference. Also, 10% methanol will do damage, as it still retains it's corrosive tendancy. I have seen the damage from that. Being an alcohol mix, it just gets called ethanol, rather than distiguishing the difference, kind of like calling a locking pliers a vise-grip. For a test, just to verify, leave water and sawdust in a steel container, and do the same with cracked corn and see what happens. The acid from the wood rotting will eat through the container faster than the corn. The difference, though, too, is water is present, helping it rust, whereas in alcohol it is not, it absorbs water. But it does demonstrate corrosive tendency. Anyone who has had something stored under a wood roof that leaked will know that the wood acid is pretty strong. I guess a way to look at it is that wood based methanol is more acidic than ethanol. Hence the different name, as well, because the molecular base is different.
Last edited by fellro86; 10-29-2004 at 11:21 AM.
#20
10-29-2004, 11:31 PM
Originally Posted by fellro86
As I had said, natural rubber dries out, it doesn't actually "eat" it, it dries out and flakes away. I was referring more to the metal parts of the fuel sysyem, mainly steel lines.Natural rubber WILL be affected by the ethanol, but it takes all the water out of it, leaving it to crack and disintegrate. Neoprene is not affected the same way. Ethanol is a more stable alcohol, therefore less corosive, i.e METAL, (not rubber). Last time I checked, rubber did not corrode. Methanol is less stable, chemically needing to add to it's molecular makeup to become fully stable. That is why it is more corrosive, it is trying to satisfy it's molecular instability. It's all basic high school science. I'd have to dig out the full molecular structure and all that to show it, but you have to understand the molecular theories to know if I'm bs'ing you or not. For the racers that run Methanol, they all have to go to stainless steel lines to run it for any length of time, or it will eat through the steel lines. Ethanol does not. I know plenty of racers in South Dakota on the Wissota circuit running E85 for the street stock class, and have not gone to the elaborate methanol setups. There is a difference. Also, 10% methanol will do damage, as it still retains it's corrosive tendancy. I have seen the damage from that. Being an alcohol mix, it just gets called ethanol, rather than distiguishing the difference, kind of like calling a locking pliers a vise-grip. For a test, just to verify, leave water and sawdust in a steel container, and do the same with cracked corn and see what happens. The acid from the wood rotting will eat through the container faster than the corn. The difference, though, too, is water is present, helping it rust, whereas in alcohol it is not, it absorbs water. But it does demonstrate corrosive tendency. Anyone who has had something stored under a wood roof that leaked will know that the wood acid is pretty strong. I guess a way to look at it is that wood based methanol is more acidic than ethanol. Hence the different name, as well, because the molecular base is different.
Very good demonstration and explanation.
Ethanol = Ethyline Glycol?
Methanol = Methyl Glycol?
Just curious. Would the Isopropyl alcohol sold for disinfectant be a most stable variety of the Methanol...or simply both being a portion of the same extraction.
#22
10-30-2004, 12:27 PM
Always have run 10% in all of my vehicles since I started driving in 79 .... my '66 F250 240 I6 loved it ... if you have a cruddy fuel tank , carry spare fuel filters , it cleans the sludge out ...
I bought a friends 78 F150 that had been stored for way too long ... every 100 miles or so ,I had to put a new fuel filter on ....for several months ...
as a farmer ,... I grow it , I use it ...
we have 2 corn ethanol plants within 30 miles from me ..
I bought a friends 78 F150 that had been stored for way too long ... every 100 miles or so ,I had to put a new fuel filter on ....for several months ...
as a farmer ,... I grow it , I use it ...
we have 2 corn ethanol plants within 30 miles from me ..
#23
11-20-2004, 04:54 AM
#24
11-20-2004, 12:13 PM
it is still available, it depends on your distributors. Here in Missouri, there are plenty of places that do not have any ethanol in it. Same for out west to Wyoming and Idaho, and other states I'm sure, those are the ones I know for sure. Locally, Casey's has ethanol, and across the street at Ayerco, no ethanol.
#26
11-21-2004, 07:41 PM
Freshman User
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: South Central N.D.
Posts: 48
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
#28
11-23-2004, 10:02 PM
Cargo Master
Ethanol
Well, it depends on what you consider a 'major' modification. If you were to reprogram the fuel curve, then yeah, you can run straight ethanol. But if you want to maintain the same fuel economy you'll have to raise the compression ratio- to something like 12 to 1. And if you raise the compression that high, it won't run on regular gasoline anymore. I don't think I would be trying it in a EEC truck, if for no other reason than that I don't know how to program fuel injectors. But in an older truck with a carb, it is just a matter of jets. And if you were rebuilding an old truck anyway, getting an engine built with 12 to 1 is easy. And since I have two older trucks, thats what I plan to do with one of them. DF, @ his Dad's house
#30
12-10-2004, 01:29 AM
