Life After The Oil Crash
#31
I plan on buying a large parcel of land somewhere that can be farmed in some way, and leveraging that to use in case of disaster, complete with ways to make alcohol or something else I can run a vehicle/machines on - even steam engines or hydro power.
Petroleum won't be around forever, but the key point I think people are missing is we shouldn't be burning that crap in the first place. We need something much cleaner to produce energy soon. An infinite supply of petroleum won't help if the environment is not cleaned up a WHOLE lot, starting with carbon emissions.
Petroleum won't be around forever, but the key point I think people are missing is we shouldn't be burning that crap in the first place. We need something much cleaner to produce energy soon. An infinite supply of petroleum won't help if the environment is not cleaned up a WHOLE lot, starting with carbon emissions.
#32
Originally Posted by krewat
I plan on buying a large parcel of land somewhere that can be farmed in some way, and leveraging that to use in case of disaster, complete with ways to make alcohol or something else I can run a vehicle/machines on - even steam engines or hydro power.
Petroleum won't be around forever, but the key point I think people are missing is we shouldn't be burning that crap in the first place. We need something much cleaner to produce energy soon. An infinite supply of petroleum won't help if the environment is not cleaned up a WHOLE lot, starting with carbon emissions.
Petroleum won't be around forever, but the key point I think people are missing is we shouldn't be burning that crap in the first place. We need something much cleaner to produce energy soon. An infinite supply of petroleum won't help if the environment is not cleaned up a WHOLE lot, starting with carbon emissions.
I agree, I don't think anyone living today has to worry about whether there will be oil or natural gas but should be concerned about the condition of the environment.
#33
Absolutely, why wait for the oil to be a crisis, let's get alternative means going NOW instead of wait!!! But the problem is big oil doesn't want to give up it's profits, and the other means aren't as profitable, so unless someone else can get the other means into mainstream and full production, we are at their mercy, so to speak. What we can do is push for it, and do it together, complete and whole. Our choices can make a difference, I'm not saying park for a day or some stupid thing, as that is never going to happen, too many negative factors to it. We all need to demand the alternatives, even though it costs a little more, or may not be as convenient. Supply and demand, at first it is expensive, as the supply is low, so the demand is held at bay, then as the demand grows, you can bet they will work towards supplying more, and then as the supply is developed more, then prices stabilize. Remember when DVD's first came out, how expensive the player were? Now today, they can be had for the same price as VCR's! That's the way it works, after into production long enough, and the process is improved and more efficient, the price stabilizes.
"There will be a crash, how bad it is will be up to us to change how we live.
I believe 90% of us will do nothing until the last moment.
I'm building a Wood Gas fueled generator with a wood chipper attachment with my 16 year old daughter for a start.
If we survive, we will be a part of the rebuild."
I personally hope we are all just alarmists, but I tend to agree. This kind of solution will work for a while, perhaps, but human nature to be lazy will mean raiders, to start, and the next problem is that if there are no manufacturers, there will be no replacement parts, and eventually your vehicles will be unable to be repaired. Sure it will take a while, but it eventually would be a problem. I don't disagree with your solution, but this is the one downfall, as well as simple things like antifreeze, lubrication, belts, hoses and such. Stockpiling would help for a while, but guessing what vehicle you will have at the time of the crash would be the trick. If perchance it were to go to nuclear war before all "normal" activity ceases, most with any electronics would be toasted...
"There will be a crash, how bad it is will be up to us to change how we live.
I believe 90% of us will do nothing until the last moment.
I'm building a Wood Gas fueled generator with a wood chipper attachment with my 16 year old daughter for a start.
If we survive, we will be a part of the rebuild."
I personally hope we are all just alarmists, but I tend to agree. This kind of solution will work for a while, perhaps, but human nature to be lazy will mean raiders, to start, and the next problem is that if there are no manufacturers, there will be no replacement parts, and eventually your vehicles will be unable to be repaired. Sure it will take a while, but it eventually would be a problem. I don't disagree with your solution, but this is the one downfall, as well as simple things like antifreeze, lubrication, belts, hoses and such. Stockpiling would help for a while, but guessing what vehicle you will have at the time of the crash would be the trick. If perchance it were to go to nuclear war before all "normal" activity ceases, most with any electronics would be toasted...
#35
We would run out of mass produced fuel long before everything would wear out, and after the crash and the raiders and other desperate things are over when things stabilize, those left would salvage and adapt to get things going.
The ability some of us have to salvage, adapt and modify might shock you.
Some things like the Martec electronic ignition that need no points and can be rebuilt with a lathe (bushings) would last a long time, but other things like tires, radiator hoses and fan belts would need to have their manufacturing restarted.
At some point someone would restart making some of the essentials.
Other hard parts would be salvaged from warehouses and parts houses that have survived as well as other cars that perhaps were in underground parking and were spared the worst from nature.
Unless it's a total nuclear wipeout, I think basic things would restart rather quickly like generators for power and what not as long as it happens before the last generation with all the know how die of old age.
The ability some of us have to salvage, adapt and modify might shock you.
Some things like the Martec electronic ignition that need no points and can be rebuilt with a lathe (bushings) would last a long time, but other things like tires, radiator hoses and fan belts would need to have their manufacturing restarted.
At some point someone would restart making some of the essentials.
Other hard parts would be salvaged from warehouses and parts houses that have survived as well as other cars that perhaps were in underground parking and were spared the worst from nature.
Unless it's a total nuclear wipeout, I think basic things would restart rather quickly like generators for power and what not as long as it happens before the last generation with all the know how die of old age.
#36
Originally Posted by archangel
We would run out of mass produced fuel long before everything would wear out, and after the crash and the raiders and other desperate things are over when things stabilize, those left would salvage and adapt to get things going.
The ability some of us have to salvage, adapt and modify might shock you.
Some things like the Martec electronic ignition that need no points and can be rebuilt with a lathe (bushings) would last a long time, but other things like tires, radiator hoses and fan belts would need to have their manufacturing restarted.
At some point someone would restart making some of the essentials.
Other hard parts would be salvaged from warehouses and parts houses that have survived as well as other cars that perhaps were in underground parking and were spared the worst from nature.
Unless it's a total nuclear wipeout, I think basic things would restart rather quickly like generators for power and what not as long as it happens before the last generation with all the know how die of old age.
The ability some of us have to salvage, adapt and modify might shock you.
Some things like the Martec electronic ignition that need no points and can be rebuilt with a lathe (bushings) would last a long time, but other things like tires, radiator hoses and fan belts would need to have their manufacturing restarted.
At some point someone would restart making some of the essentials.
Other hard parts would be salvaged from warehouses and parts houses that have survived as well as other cars that perhaps were in underground parking and were spared the worst from nature.
Unless it's a total nuclear wipeout, I think basic things would restart rather quickly like generators for power and what not as long as it happens before the last generation with all the know how die of old age.
#37
Originally Posted by Waxy
Firstly, nothing living today (or the last few million years for that matter) in any way contributes to the oil being produced today.
No, but you can make some usable replacement fuels like biodiesel, methanol and a few others.
And if it takes 1.6 units of energy to make 1.0 units of Hydrogen, solar, wind and ocean water power from world wide currents can generate it without burning the 1.6 units from the hydrogen production process.
Firstly, nothing living today (or the last few million years for that matter) in any way contributes to the oil being produced today.
No, but you can make some usable replacement fuels like biodiesel, methanol and a few others.
And if it takes 1.6 units of energy to make 1.0 units of Hydrogen, solar, wind and ocean water power from world wide currents can generate it without burning the 1.6 units from the hydrogen production process.
#38
Originally Posted by archangel
No, but you can make some usable replacement fuels like biodiesel, methanol and a few others.
And if it takes 1.6 units of energy to make 1.0 units of Hydrogen, solar, wind and ocean water power from world wide currents can generate it without burning the 1.6 units from the hydrogen production process.
And if it takes 1.6 units of energy to make 1.0 units of Hydrogen, solar, wind and ocean water power from world wide currents can generate it without burning the 1.6 units from the hydrogen production process.
And you are absolutely correct about emissions-less energy sources to produce Hydrogen. Good call...
art k.
#39
Originally Posted by archangel
Originally Posted by Waxy
Firstly, nothing living today (or the last few million years for that matter) in any way contributes to the oil being produced today.
No, but you can make some usable replacement fuels like biodiesel, methanol and a few others.
And if it takes 1.6 units of energy to make 1.0 units of Hydrogen, solar, wind and ocean water power from world wide currents can generate it without burning the 1.6 units from the hydrogen production process.
Firstly, nothing living today (or the last few million years for that matter) in any way contributes to the oil being produced today.
No, but you can make some usable replacement fuels like biodiesel, methanol and a few others.
And if it takes 1.6 units of energy to make 1.0 units of Hydrogen, solar, wind and ocean water power from world wide currents can generate it without burning the 1.6 units from the hydrogen production process.
They are only viable as SMALL SCALE alternatives. The best use of these types of fuels is in maximizing the energy and benefit we can gain from what would otherwise be waste material.
The simple facts are this - biodiesel, ethanol, etc... on a scale large enough to even partially replace petroleum would be a MASSIVE energy sink, and is ultimately not sustainable.
With current technologies, biodiesel, and ethanol/methanol in particular, are produced at an energy deficit of between 1.5 and 2 times. Massive amounts of petroleum derived energy are required for their manufacture.
The second part of the equation is the massive amount of arable land that would have to be dedicated to the production of biomass specifically for fuel generation. That competition for land would directly affect every aspect of your life, from the cost of milk, bread, and meat, to the cost of a cotton t-shirt. In addition, the arable land in North America is not infinitely viable, it is already under intense pressure and artificial irrigation/fertilization to maintain its viability.
Hydrogen is currently a poor alternative in my opinion, due to it's energy defecit. If you can come up with a way to produce it in sufficient quantities using using wind, solar or ocean currents, you'll be a billionaire. Good luck with that.
Waxy
#40
Another quick point I'd like to make is this -
There's a distinct difference between the end of CHEAP oil, and the end of oil.
The end of cheap oil will mean the end of gas guzzling SUVs, flights to Carribean for a vacation, and going snowmobiling, but it will not devastate the economy to the point of being in the stone age, like some have suggested above.
There are billions, maybe trillions, of barrels remaining that would become viable given the right price market and technology. If alternative fuels are created for transport purposes, the vast bulk of current petroleum use, those reserves would be capable, IMHO, of sustaining at the very least an economy similar to today's, and the technology that we have become accustomed to.
Waxy
There's a distinct difference between the end of CHEAP oil, and the end of oil.
The end of cheap oil will mean the end of gas guzzling SUVs, flights to Carribean for a vacation, and going snowmobiling, but it will not devastate the economy to the point of being in the stone age, like some have suggested above.
There are billions, maybe trillions, of barrels remaining that would become viable given the right price market and technology. If alternative fuels are created for transport purposes, the vast bulk of current petroleum use, those reserves would be capable, IMHO, of sustaining at the very least an economy similar to today's, and the technology that we have become accustomed to.
Waxy
#41
Originally Posted by Waxy
The simple facts are this - biodiesel, ethanol, etc... on a scale large enough to even partially replace petroleum would be a MASSIVE energy sink, and is ultimately not sustainable.
Waxy
Waxy
But if you use Cotton, you get 35 gallons per acre!
But if you use Soybean, you get 48 gallons per acre!
But if you use Safflower, you get 83 gallons per acre!
But if you use Peanuts, you get 113 gallons per acre!
But if you use Rape seed, you get 127 gallons per acre!
But if you use Castor beans, you get 151 gallons per acre!
But if you use Pecan nuts, you get 191 gallons per acre!
But if you use Macadamia nuts, you get 240 gallons per acre!
But if you use Coconuts, you get 287 gallons per acre!
And if you use an Oil palm, you get 635 gallons per acre!
10,000 acres of US Corn = 180,000 gallons to convert to Biodiesel.
10,000 acres of Oil palm = 6,350,000 gallons to convert to Biodiesel.
That's a differance of up to 6,170,000 more oil with a better choice!
SIX MILLION GALLONS PLUS!!!
How about looking at it this way.
One acre of US Corn at 30 mpg will get you about 540 miles.
One acre of Oil palm at 30 mpg will get you about 19,050 miles.
There's more than one way to skin a cat, or squeeze some oil!
Not all crops will do well in all climates and in all soils, but there are better options.
Originally Posted by Waxy
With current technologies, biodiesel, and ethanol/methanol in particular, are produced at an energy deficit of between 1.5 and 2 times. Massive amounts of petroleum derived energy are required for their manufacture.
Waxy
Waxy
But bring up solar, wind, tidal, Ocean current power into the mix and you can turn 2 units of Earth Bio energy into 1 unit of fuel for the long distance runs of 200 miles or more.
We could use straight voltage/battery power for short local runs of less than 200 miles.
We will have small Biodiesel generators that plug into a receiver like hitch on the back of our cars for longer trips to make our electric cars into Hybrid vehicles for longer trips.
There will be legal limits as to where you can use a fuel burner and where you must only use electric.
Like in San Francisco you must use electric only, but if going to Sacramento you can switch on the Biodiesel generator once on the expressway.
Commercial delivery vehicles will get exemption tags for long local runs and excessive weights needing to use "in vehicle" fuel burner power.
Originally Posted by Waxy
Hydrogen is currently a poor alternative in my opinion, due to it's energy deficit. If you can come up with a way to produce it in sufficient quantities using wind, solar or ocean currents, you'll be a billionaire. Good luck with that.
Waxy
Waxy
They have a small generator you drop into a river, anchored to the banks that uses the passing water to turn a turbine to generate energy, you just need to think much bigger like an oil drilling platform as one side of the massive turbines anchor system.
Set them up all around the world where the currents are the strongest and you have one massive piece of the energy puzzle.
Expand wind and solar to fill in the gaps where needed and produce some Biodiesel to fuel individual vehicle transportation and with the more efficient vehicles we will develop, we will be on our way.
The Oil companies and the Government wont decide to convert to them until the price of oil costs more than making energy the Bio way.
Peanut oil as "biodiesel" and coal/wood gas was replaced by Petroleum as it was real easy to drill for and produce!
#42
Originally Posted by archangel
Well, if you use the most commonly used and referred to crop like corn that only get's you 18 gallons an acre, yeah!
But if you use Cotton, you get 35 gallons per acre!
But if you use Soybean, you get 48 gallons per acre!
But if you use Safflower, you get 83 gallons per acre!
But if you use Peanuts, you get 113 gallons per acre!
But if you use Rape seed, you get 127 gallons per acre!
But if you use Castor beans, you get 151 gallons per acre!
But if you use Pecan nuts, you get 191 gallons per acre!
But if you use Macadamia nuts, you get 240 gallons per acre!
But if you use Coconuts, you get 287 gallons per acre!
And if you use an Oil palm, you get 635 gallons per acre!
10,000 acres of US Corn = 180,000 gallons to convert to Biodiesel.
10,000 acres of Oil palm = 6,350,000 gallons to convert to Biodiesel.
That's a differance of up to 6,170,000 more oil with a better choice!
SIX MILLION GALLONS PLUS!!!
How about looking at it this way.
One acre of US Corn at 30 mpg will get you about 540 miles.
One acre of Oil palm at 30 mpg will get you about 19,050 miles.
There's more than one way to skin a cat, or squeeze some oil!
Not all crops will do well in all climates and in all soils, but there are better options.
But if you use Cotton, you get 35 gallons per acre!
But if you use Soybean, you get 48 gallons per acre!
But if you use Safflower, you get 83 gallons per acre!
But if you use Peanuts, you get 113 gallons per acre!
But if you use Rape seed, you get 127 gallons per acre!
But if you use Castor beans, you get 151 gallons per acre!
But if you use Pecan nuts, you get 191 gallons per acre!
But if you use Macadamia nuts, you get 240 gallons per acre!
But if you use Coconuts, you get 287 gallons per acre!
And if you use an Oil palm, you get 635 gallons per acre!
10,000 acres of US Corn = 180,000 gallons to convert to Biodiesel.
10,000 acres of Oil palm = 6,350,000 gallons to convert to Biodiesel.
That's a differance of up to 6,170,000 more oil with a better choice!
SIX MILLION GALLONS PLUS!!!
How about looking at it this way.
One acre of US Corn at 30 mpg will get you about 540 miles.
One acre of Oil palm at 30 mpg will get you about 19,050 miles.
There's more than one way to skin a cat, or squeeze some oil!
Not all crops will do well in all climates and in all soils, but there are better options.
You're going to plant 1000's, or 100,000's, or realistically 1,000,000's of acres of coconuts or oil palms on the continental USA? Macadamia nuts? Pecans? How are you going to farm those crops on a HUGE scale?
Everything on your list after safflower, with the exception of rape seed, is just not an option for agriculture on that kind of scale IMHO. Again, you have to take into account the impact that this demand for arable land will have on every other aspect of our economy and culture.
I'd love to see where you get your numbers from. Do you have a link or source?
If you're comparing volume to volume, they may be correct, but you have to compare actual yield/acre to have a realistic number. To be truly realistic, you'd have to compare total input energy and cost vs. unit of energy produced. The numbers for soy beans and rape seed seem to be pretty exaggerated to me, based on my knowledge of their yields, input costs, and the growing conditions required. After a recent trip to Hawaii, I'm quite certain that Macadamia nuts aren't the answer either.
Only true if you do it the way we do things today!
But bring up solar, wind, tidal, Ocean current power into the mix and you can turn 2 units of Earth Bio energy into 1 unit of fuel for the long distance runs of 200 miles or more.
We could use straight voltage/battery power for short local runs of less than 200 miles.
We will have small Biodiesel generators that plug into a receiver like hitch on the back of our cars for longer trips to make our electric cars into Hybrid vehicles for longer trips.
There will be legal limits as to where you can use a fuel burner and where you must only use electric.
Like in San Francisco you must use electric only, but if going to Sacramento you can switch on the Biodiesel generator once on the expressway.
Commercial delivery vehicles will get exemption tags for long local runs and excessive weights needing to use "in vehicle" fuel burner power.
But bring up solar, wind, tidal, Ocean current power into the mix and you can turn 2 units of Earth Bio energy into 1 unit of fuel for the long distance runs of 200 miles or more.
We could use straight voltage/battery power for short local runs of less than 200 miles.
We will have small Biodiesel generators that plug into a receiver like hitch on the back of our cars for longer trips to make our electric cars into Hybrid vehicles for longer trips.
There will be legal limits as to where you can use a fuel burner and where you must only use electric.
Like in San Francisco you must use electric only, but if going to Sacramento you can switch on the Biodiesel generator once on the expressway.
Commercial delivery vehicles will get exemption tags for long local runs and excessive weights needing to use "in vehicle" fuel burner power.
All require energy.
Well, the technology is here, it's only a matter of building them in the needed sizes to produce the energy needed.
They have a small generator you drop into a river, anchored to the banks that uses the passing water to turn a turbine to generate energy, you just need to think much bigger like an oil drilling platform as one side of the massive turbines anchor system.
Set them up all around the world where the currents are the strongest and you have one massive piece of the energy puzzle.
Expand wind and solar to fill in the gaps where needed and produce some Biodiesel to fuel individual vehicle transportation and with the more efficient vehicles we will develop, we will be on our way.
The Oil companies and the Government wont decide to convert to them until the price of oil costs more than making energy the Bio way.
Peanut oil as "biodiesel" and coal/wood gas was replaced by Petroleum as it was real easy to drill for and produce!
They have a small generator you drop into a river, anchored to the banks that uses the passing water to turn a turbine to generate energy, you just need to think much bigger like an oil drilling platform as one side of the massive turbines anchor system.
Set them up all around the world where the currents are the strongest and you have one massive piece of the energy puzzle.
Expand wind and solar to fill in the gaps where needed and produce some Biodiesel to fuel individual vehicle transportation and with the more efficient vehicles we will develop, we will be on our way.
The Oil companies and the Government wont decide to convert to them until the price of oil costs more than making energy the Bio way.
Peanut oil as "biodiesel" and coal/wood gas was replaced by Petroleum as it was real easy to drill for and produce!
Generators in the oceans and rivers, wind farms dotting the land?
Do you truly believe that oil platform sized generators crammed into all of our rivers is the answer? Remember the scale of the task at hand.
The truth is, I applaud you and people like you for thinking big and thinking outside of the box, but I'm a skeptic, or as I prefer to think of myself, a realist.
I haven't seen what I consider to be a truly viable alternative to replace petroleum on the scale required. We can do it small scale, essentially on an experimental basis, but we're talking about a global problem, and every action we take to reduce petroleum consumption with alternative sources has consequences and costs, there's no free ride.
Waxy
Last edited by Waxy; 02-01-2005 at 10:06 AM.
#43
Originally Posted by Waxy
That's true, the question is, are those other ways at all realistic?
You're going to plant 1000's, or 100,000's, or realistically 1,000,000's of acres of coconuts or oil palms on the continental USA? Macadamia nuts? Pecans? How are you going to farm those crops on a HUGE scale?
Everything on your list after safflower, with the exception of rape seed, is just not an option for agriculture on that kind of scale IMHO. Again, you have to take into account the impact that this demand for arable land will have on every other aspect of our economy and culture.
Waxy
You're going to plant 1000's, or 100,000's, or realistically 1,000,000's of acres of coconuts or oil palms on the continental USA? Macadamia nuts? Pecans? How are you going to farm those crops on a HUGE scale?
Everything on your list after safflower, with the exception of rape seed, is just not an option for agriculture on that kind of scale IMHO. Again, you have to take into account the impact that this demand for arable land will have on every other aspect of our economy and culture.
Waxy
It was once thought we would never be able to feed as many people as we do.
America and other countries have done huge farming to feed people across the world.
The old growth forests all over the world are dwindling, and we need more plant life growing to absorb all the carbon we are releasing into the atmosphere from Petroleum oil consumption.
As far as other more exotic crops?
They will be planted where they will grow.
Perhaps somewhere else, like central America could become the Biodiesel oil supplier, a Bio OPEC if you will.
We will farm the ocean for energy and trade it for the oil we need from those who have it.
Originally Posted by Waxy
[U]I'd love to see where you get your numbers from. Do you have a link or source?
Waxy
Waxy
Originally Posted by Waxy
If you're comparing volume to volume, they may be correct, but you have to compare actual yield/acre to have a realistic number. To be truly realistic, you'd have to compare total input energy and cost vs. unit of energy produced. The numbers for soy beans and rape seed seem to be pretty exaggerated to me, based on my knowledge of their yields, input costs, and the growing conditions required. After a recent trip to Hawaii, I'm quite certain that Macadamia nuts aren't the answer either.
Waxy
Waxy
Originally Posted by Waxy
Where does the electricity come from? The biodiesel?
Waxy
Waxy
Originally Posted by Waxy
How about the material for the batteries?
All require energy.
Waxy
All require energy.
Waxy
YES, it all requires energy to manufacture, all I'm saying is that it (the energy) WILL have to come from somewhere else and there are various other possibilities.
Originally Posted by Waxy
Have you given any thought to the environmental impact of your proposed solutions?
Waxy
Waxy
This sounds like the arguments made in the 20's, 30's, 40's, 50's and 60's about all those Automobiles being produced and sucking up all the air we breath.
Originally Posted by Waxy
Generators in the oceans and rivers, wind farms dotting the land?
Waxy
Waxy
Ever seen that BIG Cement stopper on the Colorado River built, what, 60 years ago or so?
Built in Black canyon?
Hoover Dam?
Just one example.
Originally Posted by Waxy
Do you truly believe that oil platform sized generators crammed into all of our rivers is the answer? Remember the scale of the task at hand.
Waxy
Waxy
I said they would be in the ocean generating power, like windmills on land being pushed by air.
Look at a small fan on a desk.
Is it so hard to see how it could become a Helicopter?
You have to be open-minded, think positive and see the potential.
Originally Posted by Waxy
The truth is, I applaud you and people like you for thinking big and thinking outside of the box, but I'm a skeptic, or as I prefer to think of myself, a realist.
Waxy
Waxy
There is only so much Petroleum available in the Earth.
We are (figuratively) headed at a brick wall at an incredible speed and the crash will kill many of us if we don't start to do something soon.
Originally Posted by Waxy
I haven't seen what I consider to be a truly viable alternative to replace petroleum on the scale required. We can do it small scale, essentially on an experimental basis
Waxy
Waxy
When we run out, things will change.
Originally Posted by Waxy
But we're talking about a global problem, and every action we take to reduce petroleum consumption with alternative sources has consequences and costs, there's no free ride.
Waxy
Waxy
And I never said it would be a free ride.
#44
Originally Posted by archangel
No. But we will plant what we can here.
It was once thought we would never be able to feed as many people as we do. America and other countries have done huge farming to feed people across the world.
It was once thought we would never be able to feed as many people as we do. America and other countries have done huge farming to feed people across the world.
The old growth forests all over the world are dwindling, and we need more plant life growing to absorb all the carbon we are releasing into the atmosphere from Petroleum oil consumption.
It would seem to me that your solution would be in favour of chopping down all of the old growth tropical forests and planting oil producing crops. That's not even really an exaggeration, that's exactly what you're proposing here -
As far as other more exotic crops?
They will be planted where they will grow.
Perhaps somewhere else, like central America could become the Biodiesel oil supplier, a Bio OPEC if you will.
They will be planted where they will grow.
Perhaps somewhere else, like central America could become the Biodiesel oil supplier, a Bio OPEC if you will.
We're losing rain forest at incredible rates just for the lumber, imagine if the land now had value as crop land - deforestation rates would be astronomical.
On top of that, the soil in these regions is VERY poor, and would not be capable of sustaining continued agriculture.
We will farm the ocean for energy and trade it for the oil we need from those who have it.
Try as might, I can't find the formula used to derive these numbers anywhere on the website. I couldn't find any other hard numbers in a brief Google search (that page was usually the first one to appear in all searches though) so I can't substantiate my position with hard data, but let's just say I'm more than a little skeptical, especially given their disclaimer.
I am not saying anything will be made for free.
YES, it all requires energy to manufacture, all I'm saying is that it (the energy) WILL have to come from somewhere else and there are various other possibilities.
YES, it all requires energy to manufacture, all I'm saying is that it (the energy) WILL have to come from somewhere else and there are various other possibilities.
What about the environmental impact of choking the earth with all the emissions from petroleum consumption?
This sounds like the arguments made in the 20's, 30's, 40's, 50's and 60's about all those Automobiles being produced and sucking up all the air we breath.
This sounds like the arguments made in the 20's, 30's, 40's, 50's and 60's about all those Automobiles being produced and sucking up all the air we breath.
Either way, the same volume of C and CO2 are being produced.
When it comes to emissions, it's a non-issue, you're simply robbing from Peter to pay Paul.
Where else would they be?
Ever seen that BIG Cement stopper on the Colorado River built, what, 60 years ago or so?
Built in Black canyon?
Hoover Dam?
Just one example.
Ever seen that BIG Cement stopper on the Colorado River built, what, 60 years ago or so?
Built in Black canyon?
Hoover Dam?
Just one example.
Again, think large scale generation.
I never said "oil platform sized generators crammed into all of our rivers"! I said they would be in the ocean generating power, like windmills on land being pushed by air.
Look at a small fan on a desk.
Is it so hard to see how it could become a Helicopter?
You have to be open-minded, think positive and see the potential.
Is it so hard to see how it could become a Helicopter?
You have to be open-minded, think positive and see the potential.
Then be realistic.
There is only so much Petroleum available in the Earth.
We are (figuratively) headed at a brick wall at an incredible speed and the crash will kill many of us if we don't start to do something soon.
There is only so much Petroleum available in the Earth.
We are (figuratively) headed at a brick wall at an incredible speed and the crash will kill many of us if we don't start to do something soon.
We do it on a small scale now because its cheaper to use what we have now, Petroleum. When we run out, things will change.
And it will take a global effort to deal with it, and not doing something will have consequences and costs as well.
And I never said it would be a free ride.
And I never said it would be a free ride.
I simply tried to point out the expense and real costs of the alternatives you've presented.
Waxy
#45
Here's my idea on how to cut down on the energy we burn to produce electricty.
Take all the electric treadmills in gyms and homes as well as all the stationary biles, rowers, steppers and put generators in them, hook them up to the grid and the gym pays you to work out based on the number of kilowatts produced per month. We can work our fat butts off and save the world at the same time.
Take all the electric treadmills in gyms and homes as well as all the stationary biles, rowers, steppers and put generators in them, hook them up to the grid and the gym pays you to work out based on the number of kilowatts produced per month. We can work our fat butts off and save the world at the same time.