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  #16 (permalink)  
Old 10-06-2004, 12:34 AM
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NoMo NoMo is offline
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Truck has OBD-I connector under the hood.

Honestly, I've always just assumed it was EEC-IV because of the OBD-I setup. I'll look tomorrow & post a pic of the ECU cabling at the firewall. I'll also take a pic of the injectors. It could be that the emissions sticker is mis-leading.

As for noticing the sticker, I need to replace the catalytic converter and the sticker tells what kind (2-way or 3-way) the truck requires. So, the inspection of the small letters was 'necessary'.
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Old 10-07-2004, 10:28 AM
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Sorry about the delay. Finally got some pics of the ECU wiring harness & the injectors. Same link as before.
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Old 10-07-2004, 01:38 PM
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I cannot tell from the pictures, but since you have the OBD-I connector I suspect you have an eec-iv PCM and Speed Density. I think your right to suspect the sticker.

IMHO

John

If anyone has pics of the 1996-1997 CA 460 MAF inlet air plumbing I would really like to see them. I am have difficulties changing my Speed density plumbing to the MAF pumbing. Thanks in advance.
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Old 04-10-2005, 12:45 AM
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I have an EFI 460 in my Kaiser military truck (M-715 1-1/4 ton) that I recently converted to mass-air. The computer and wiring harness came from a 1996 F-350 California/Massachusets emissions truck. The conversion was prompted partly from my desire to have Mass Air (for future engine mods) and need to add wiring/change EEC-IV processor to support my recent swap from C6 to E4OD.

The results were worth the effort. I can't believe how much better the engine runs with the EEC-V processor. The idle is smoother and WAY, WAY more stable. The EEC-IV (1993 harness/'puter) would routinely have hunting idle issues and/or stalling while in gear no matter how I had the TPS, minimum airflow and timing adjusted. I made no adjustments or chages to the engine, just swapped wiring and 'puter and all those problems went away! The other thing that's gone is a tendancy for the speed-density system to run rich at idle. BTW, the motor is internally stock. I have some intake mods (see below) and the exhaust consists of Heddman EFI 460 headers (crap, BTW, Banks are MUCH better), Flowmaster Y pipe (dual 2-1/2" to single 3-1/2"), mandrel bent 3.5" tubing and single Edelbrock 3.5" in/out Victor 409 stainless muffler. I run 39.5" swampers with 5.13's and a Detroit Locker out back. I have no problem lighting up the back tires at will with this setup and outrunning just about anything that isn't a "performance car or truck" from a stop to about 30-40mph. Oh yeah, the motor is a VERY tired 1987 longblock that has low compression in two cylinders and burns about THREE QUARTS of oil per 30 gallons of fuel! (Part of the credit goes to the fact that an M-715 isn't much heavier than a 1/2 ton pickup at 5,500#.)

Here is a short list of parts used to make the swap and some install notes:

1. Engine wiring harness is 1996-97 F-350 7.5L CA/MA emissions.

2. MAF from aforementioned application (6-pin plug) or earlier Lincoln Mark-VIII (4-pin plug). Both are 80mm MAFs and appear to have the same MAF curves. I have two different harnesses made so I can use either MAF and the engine runs identically on both. Also, my research seems to indicate the 1996-97 460 MAF is the same part number as the MAF on later Mark VIII's. Apparently that's when they went to the 6-pin Sumitomo connector. The part # on the 1996 460 MAF is F50F-12B579-AA, which supercedes to F50Y--12B579-AA, which supercedes to F8LZ-12B579-AA (notice the latter is a Lincoln part #?). I did not use the air intake plumbing that came with the MAF, but the airbox lid appears the same as other MAF-equipped F-series trucks and Broncos however the intake elbow and "Y" pipe is larger to accomodate the bigger MAF. I already had a custom intake which consists of a Lincoln Mark-VII (not a typo, Mk7) airbox, 80mm MAF with MAF adapter, 80mm to oval intake elbow from 1999 Lightning, and BBK dual 62mm Throttlebody for 4.6 Cobra/6.8 V10.

3. EEC-V processor from 1996-1997 F-350 or E-350 7.5L CA/MA emissions. The original computer I used was from a F-350, catch code "FEZ2", engineering #F6TF-12A650-AMC, service part #F6TZ-12A650-AMD. That one had a bad SS2 driver and was replaced with one from a 1996 E-350, whose #'s I don't have handy right now. The interesting thing to note here is the 1996-97 460 MAF F-trucks did NOT have air injection, but the vans DID. The F-truck engine harness had plastic caps over the TAB/TAD solenoid plugs. My truck does not have to have air injection so it was removed to make room for a second A/C compressor. When I switched to the van computer I had to add 1.2k ohm resistors across those plugs to eliminate the trouble codes.

4. These computers/applications are OBD-II. That means an OBD-II DLC (data link connector) instead of the EEC-IV "STAR" diagnostic plug. It also means some additional emission control hardware. First there are THREE heated O2 sensors. They are Bank 1 Sensor 1 (Right manifold), Bank 2 Sensor 1 (Left Manifold) and Bank 1 Sensor 2 (after cat). The first two are similar to the 5.0L Mustang setup. The 3rd is for measuring catalyst efficiency. At the present time I don't have the 3rd hooked up and have no problems other than a couple codes that set. I have already wired up a dummy load to simulate the heater circuit which takes care one code. I and still working on a "o2 sensor simulator" which mimics the signal generated by a "real" after cat o2 sensor. These are readily availbale for purchase already, BTW. The O2 sensors are the 4-wire type, some compatible parts #'s include: Bosch (autozone) #15717 $49.99 10" wire, Carquest #75-1649 $49.66 16" wire, Carquest #75-1651 $48.14 6" wire.


5. A PWM EVAP purge valve is used, like other OBD-II Ford trucks instead of the CANP valve on the left side of the engine. There is no fuel tank vapor pressure sensor, however. You can omit this and put a 1.2K dummy load on the plug but it will still set a trouble code. Apparently, the EEC-V opens the EVAP purge at idle and checks for an idle speed fluctuation. Lacking this fluctuation, a trouble code is set. No real problem and easy enough to convert to the new style Evap purge valve.

5. A Flow-sensing EGR system is used instead of the EGR lift sensor, again like other OBD-II Ford applications. This system measures the pressure drop across an engineered restriction in the EGR pipe between the exhaust manifold and EGR valve. The good news is you can rewire the plug and connect it to the old style EGR lift sensor (EVP) and there seem to be no ill effects -- the EGR works, the engine runs fine (no surging or pinging) and no trouble codes are set.

6. A "Misfire Sensor" has been added. It is basically a VRS Crank Position sensor like other Ford engines, except with a 4 tooth wheel instead of 36-1 teeth. The front timing cover was redesigned to provide a mount for this sensor and the 4 tooth reluctor is pressed onto the crank balancer. The new timing cover is easy to identify as it has no fuel pump opening on the left side (which previous timing covers had a block-off plate there). The good news is it is NOT NEEDED for the engine to run as the primary timing signal is still the PIP sensor in the distributor. The bad news is it will set a trouble code if not connected/not functioning. My engine has been running fine without it for months and ignition advance works fine.

7. This system *IS* SFI (sequential injection). The computer is pre-programmed with the correct engine firing order and will work fine as long as your distributor reluctor is the "Signature PIP" type. Most EFI 460's have the correct reluctor, which is easy to identify by 7 wide teeth and one narrow one.

8. This system uses the newer BLACK TFI-IV ignition module, and NOT the Grey one. They are NOT interchangable, but the engine will run with the wrong one but may exhibit hard starting and misfire. The big difference is the BLACK modules rely on the EEC processor to control dwell, the GREY modules control dwell internally as a function of RPM. The other difference is one of the pins changes functions. On the GREY modules, one pin is hot while cranking to increase dwell to make the engine easier to start. The BLACK modules use this pin to internally generate the IDM (Ignition Diagnostic Monitor) signal the EEC uses to make sure the ignition is working correctly.

9. This system uses an airbox-mounted IAT (Intake Air Temp) sensor instead of the manifold-mounted one. The connector is the "new" style Sumitomo type instead of the traditional Ford round 2-pin. The two styles of sensors appear to be electrically identical, but failure to move the sensor to the airbox will result in artificially high readings and fueling/timing errors (ie ignition retard when air temp is very high and engine is under heavy load).

10. A few other sensors have also been updated to the new Sumitomo connectors. They are: ECT (Engine Coolant Temp) and TPS (Throttle Position Sensor). These new style sensors are used on most other Fords 1996-up.

11. The EEC-V expects a 8k PPM (pulse per mile) VSS (vehicle speed sensor) signal from the PSOM (speedo module) just like other EEC-IV equipped 1987-1997 F trucks (and unlike other EEC-V applications that use a 16k or 40k PPM VSS signal). It is also compatible with the Ford VRS (variable reluctance sensor) speed sensors. I was able to use a F-450/550 extension housing on my E4OD which has a OSS (Output Shaft Speed) sensor boss in it (and is also a much stronger cast iron part, instead of cast aluminum as the F-150/250/350 housing are). I had a 3 tooth reluctor made that is an interference fit on the E4OD's output shaft (the F-550's had a 18 tooth reluctor and matching splined output shaft). The result is a perfect 8k PPM signal to feed to the EEC-V (and Ford Cruise Control module) that is independant of the transfer case low range gearing. This means the shift scheduling is not affected by using low range even though my truck has two different low range ratios (2:1 or 4:1), none of which match the stock BW t-case ratios.

I have some pics here: Mass air 460 pics
and here: 460 mass air EEC-V and ouput speed sensor

Feel free to ask any questions as I plan to be asking some questions of my own about my engine build-up. The MAF setup came complete with a 1996 460 engine (fan to flexplate) that I'm planning to turn into a firebreathing 513+ci monster.
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  #20 (permalink)  
Old 04-11-2005, 03:06 PM
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Hey Mudog715 thats the coolest thing Ive ever seen (well almost). Great job. I like the way youve solved all the OBD2 problems.
I do have some questions though. First off, how do you recalabrate for gear and tire size changes with the PSOM?
Second have you give any thought into reprograming the ECM for preformance changes as well as deleting some of the troublesome emission goodies like the EVAP, downstreem O2, and maybe the EGR?
And third would a speed sensor from a late eighities early ninties Ford truck (the ones that mount in the speedo port on a Borg-Warner T-case out put) give the late modle PSOM the signal it needed to work correctly?
If you are looking for a little more preformance from that 460 when it comes time to rebuild get a set of cyllender heads from a 93 and up E3s. They have larger ports and valves. Then talk to Scott Johnston AKA The Mad porter about porting them. Hes done alot of work with thease heads and frequents this bord. His web site has some good info too its http://www.reincarnation-automotive.com.
Thanks for sharing Leadmic
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Old 04-11-2005, 07:20 PM
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[/quote]

Quote:
Originally Posted by leadmic
Hey Mudog715 thats the coolest thing Ive ever seen (well almost). Great job. I like the way youve solved all the OBD2 problems.
I do have some questions though. First off, how do you recalabrate for gear and tire size changes with the PSOM?
My rig doesn't have a PSOM. I installed a VRS (variable reluctance sensor) in the transmission extension housing, amounting to an Output Shaft Speed sensor. I did the math and figured out that a 3-tooth reluctor on the tranny output shaft would give me the approx. 8,000 pulse per mile VSS signal the EEC-V wants. The OSS/VSS Positive (+) signal is run directly to EEC-V pin 58 and the Cruise module pin 3 ('90s Ford truck type). The OSS Negative (-) goes to EEC-V pin 33, Cruise module pins 10) and to a chassis Ground (important as this is also the Ground for the cruise module). The two OSS wires are twisted together throughout to reduce noise (just like Ford does stock).

The EEC-V uses the VSS signal in this application primarily for shift scheduling in the E4OD/4R100, and in this capacity it's really more interested in Transmission Output Shaft speed than Vehicle Speed. On stock F trucks it derives this signal from the PSOM, which gets it from the rear diff ring gear. There are a lot of bad side effects to this because if you change the tire size or R&P ratio the PSOM has to get reprogrammed to correct the speedo, however that will change the ratio between Output Shaft speed and Vehicle Speed, requiring the EEC-V to be flashed as well. By taking the signal from the tranny output shaft, I neatly sidestep all of that. Even if I change the tires & gears, the EEC-V will be blissfully unaware and continue to base shifts on the output shaft speed (which is how the governor worked on the the older trannies, like the C6). Another HUGE benefit is that in low range the Vehicle Speed to trans. output speed also changes. Ford gets around this by having the EEC-V monitor a switch on the t-case that closes in 4-Low (the 4X4L signal). When it sees ground on that line, it uses an alternate shift schedule, which is designed to account for the 2.72:1 low range gearing. So what happens if you have a different t-case, or TWO t-cases with TWO possible low-ranges, neither of which matches a stock ratio (like my setup)? Things get whacky. Now if you measure the speed BEFORE the t-cases then guess what, you don't need the 4X4L signal and you don't need to account for the low range ratio because the computer DOESN'T SEE THE DIFFERENCE! This may take some deep thought for some to comprehend, but the engineering behind this approach is sound and it DOES WORK.

The downside to my approach is that if I use that signal to drive the speedo, it will be off in low range. Also, this signal will not drive the factory electronic speedo in Ford trucks. Not a big deal to me since I use my GPS as the speedo.[/quote]

Quote:
Originally Posted by leadmic
Second have you give any thought into reprograming the ECM for preformance changes as well as deleting some of the troublesome emission goodies like the EVAP, downstreem O2, and maybe the EGR?
Yep, the cleanest way is Superchips Custom Programming using their re-flasher. That way there are no extra things plugged into the PCM, it just goes into the internal flash memory just like the stock programming. The problem is cost -- at least $300. Since I don't need to change any other parameters (yet), I've found harware workarounds for the emmission issues. The downstream O2 is fixable with a $40 O2 sensor eliminator. The EGR works fine by changing the plug and using the EVP sensor instead. The EVAP could be solved easily by running a piece of 5/16" hose to the vapor bottle I already installed and is plumbed into the fuel tank vent. I have the new-stype EVAP valve already mounted and plugged in. Another alternative is to connect the EVAP up as an alternative air bypass around the throttle body, kinda like a second ISC/BPA valve. That would likely result in the idle change the EEC-V is looking for. The Misfire Sensor is the trickiest. I was planning on converting to EDIS-8 anyway (I have an "adapter" circuit prototyped that would make EDIS a direct replacement for TFI-IV without requiring a change to the EEC), so that's a good exuse to swap timing covers and install the Crank sensor and reluctor.

Quote:
Originally Posted by leadmic
And third would a speed sensor from a late eighities early ninties Ford truck (the ones that mount in the speedo port on a Borg-Warner T-case out put) give the late modle PSOM the signal it needed to work correctly?
Maybe. It would have to generate the 8k PPM signal the PCM wants, or you'd have to run it through a circuit to give you 8k PPM. Some GM cruise control sensors that install inline in the speedo cable are 8k PPM. These are usually found in early 80's GM cars and several Jeeps of that era with factory cruise.

Another way is to mount a VRS (variable relutance sensor) and have a 3-tooth ring made for the t-case or tranny output. When you do the math, it turns out the 8kPPM equals 3 pulses per output shaft revolution...

Quote:
Originally Posted by leadmic
If you are looking for a little more preformance from that 460 when it comes time to rebuild get a set of cyllender heads from a 93 and up E3s. They have larger ports and valves. Then talk to Scott Johnston AKA The Mad porter about porting them. Hes done alot of work with thease heads and frequents this bord. His web site has some good info too its http://www.reincarnation-automotive.com.
Thanks for sharing Leadmic
You mean "F3" don't you? I have a set of those heads in the garage. Came off the the '96 motor that donated its wiring and computer. Will probably look into that as a swap, or a set of the Pro Topline heads that are supposed to be improved versions of the F3 heads.
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Old 04-11-2005, 08:23 PM
leadmic leadmic is offline
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There are a lot of bad side effects to this because if you change the tire size or R&P ratio the PSOM has to get reprogrammed to correct the speedo, however that will change the ratio between Output Shaft speed and Vehicle Speed, requiring the EEC-V to be flashed as well.

Thanks for the great INFO. I have just a few more questions.
First how does changing gear raitos effiect the pulses per mile, the tone ring is not changed with the gears or is it?





By taking the signal from the tranny output shaft, I neatly sidestep all of that. Even if I change the tires & gears, the EEC-V will be blissfully unaware and continue to base shifts on the output shaft speed (which is how the governor worked on the the older trannies, like the C6).

Second if you change the tire size or gear raito doesent the change the amout of drive line revlutions per mile?


Now if you measure the speed BEFORE the t-cases then guess what, you don't need the 4X4L signal and you don't need to account for the low range ratio because the computer DOESN'T SEE THE DIFFERENCE! This may take some deep thought for some to comprehend, but the engineering behind this approach is sound and it DOES WORK.

I like this idea.




Yep, the cleanest way is Superchips Custom Programming using their re-flasher. That way there are no extra things plugged into the PCM, it just goes into the internal flash memory just like the stock programming. The problem is cost -- at least $300. Since I don't need to change any other parameters (yet), I've found harware workarounds for the emmission issues. The downstream O2 is fixable with a $40 O2 sensor eliminator. The EGR works fine by changing the plug and using the EVP sensor instead. The EVAP could be solved easily by running a piece of 5/16" hose to the vapor bottle I already installed and is plumbed into the fuel tank vent. I have the new-stype EVAP valve already mounted and plugged in. Another alternative is to connect the EVAP up as an alternative air bypass around the throttle body, kinda like a second ISC/BPA valve. That would likely result in the idle change the EEC-V is looking for. The Misfire Sensor is the trickiest. I was planning on converting to EDIS-8 anyway (I have an "adapter" circuit prototyped that would make EDIS a direct replacement for TFI-IV without requiring a change to the EEC), so that's a good exuse to swap timing covers and install the Crank sensor and reluctor.

Great info please keep us posted if it works. Would you use the coil packs off a newer moduler motor?



Maybe. It would have to generate the 8k PPM signal the PCM wants, or you'd have to run it through a circuit to give you 8k PPM. Some GM cruise control sensors that install inline in the speedo cable are 8k PPM. These are usually found in early 80's GM cars and several Jeeps of that era with factory cruise.

This is the way Ford did it with a pulse generator driven off the speedo out put befor they put the sensor in the rear end.




You mean "F3" don't you? I have a set of those heads in the garage. Came off the the '96 motor that donated its wiring and computer. Will probably look into that as a swap, or a set of the Pro Topline heads that are supposed to be improved versions of the F3 heads.

Sorry my bad your right they are F3s. Tell me more about the Topline heads. Ive never herd of thease are they a factory casting copy or are they a preformance upgrade?
Thanks again for all the great info Leadmic
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Old 04-11-2005, 08:49 PM
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As I stated before, even though the signal going to the EEC-V on the stock F trucks is a "vehicle speed" signal (VSS), the computer is really interested in transmission "output shaft speed" (OSS) for shift scheduling. As such, on these applications the shift tables are really based on OSS, backwards calulated from VSS, the ring gear ratio & tire size. It's kinda complicated the way they do, because they were trying to save the cost of TWO (or more) different sensors. Many other manufacturers get the VSS from the wheel speed sensors to drive speedo and ABS and have a separate OSS in the tranny for just shift scheduling. Some newer Fords use this approach now. My Tundra had an OSS ("Speed Sensor #1") on the tranny for shift scheduling, a VSS ("Speed Sensor #2") on the t-case for the speedo & transfer case shift-on-the-fly computer, and TWO rear axle sensors (directly behind the wheel bearings in the rear axle tubes on both sides) for the ABS. Definately a better way to get those separate signals, but at least 4 times as costly as Ford's approach.

Think of it this way: if you have a hypothetical truck with 3.73's that shifts at 10 mph from 1st to 2nd part throttle, which is maybe 2,750 rpm. If you change the rear end ratio to 4.11, wouldn't you want it to STILL shift at 2,750 rpm under the same conditions? The ratio of engine RPM to output shaft speed didn't change, since that's a function of torque converter slippage and transmission gear ratios. What changed was the ratio of output shaft speed to vehicle speed. If you feed the computer an output shaft speed signal, then the computer will continue to shift at the same output shaft speed, which in this example is 2,750 rpm, even though the Vehicle Speed with the lower gears is more like 12-13 mph. However, the actual vehicle speed is lower now. If you used a VSS signal to the computer and recal'ed the PSOM to correct the speedo but DIDN'T reflash the computer to reflect the change, the shifts would occur at 15mph which might be 3,000rpm with the new lower gears. What you really want is the shifts to be based on engine RPM and load, but for some silly reason only WOT shifts are based on engine RPM.

It all has to do with the indirect way the OSS & VSS is measured in stock F -trucks. Since they use a ring gear (which equals wheel speed) sensor, then changing gear ratios would NOT require a speedo recal, but WOULD require a computer flash because the final drive ratio is different (ratio of wheel speed to driveshaft/trans output shaft speed). On the other hand if you change tires but not gears AND you DIDN'T recal the PSOM then the computer shift schedule will be right (you didn't change wheel speed to driveshaft speed ratio) but the speedo will be off. If you recal the PSOM, it will correct the speedo but also change the ratio of the VSS signal that it generates to the EEC. If you don't reflash the the computer to account for this then the speedo will be corrected, but now the shift scheduling will be off. If the vehicle used a OSS in the first place, only the speedo would generally be affected by gearing/tire changes.

Here's some math for you to think about:

Most mechanical speedo's indicate 60mph at 1,000rpm cable speed.
One minute at 60mph = 1 mile traveled.
Therefore 1,000 speedo cable revs = 1 mile.
Many of the GM cruise sensors give 8 pulses per rev.
1,000 revs X 8 pulses = 8,000 pulses per mile.
(That's where this "8kPPM" stuff came from in the first place...)
I just turns out that in 1:1 tranmission ratio "most" vehicles will be around 2,600 driveshaft (transmission output shaft) RPM at 60mph.
(That's why "most" vehicles speedo drive gear is around 2.6:1)
2,600 rpm X 3 pulses per rev (ie 3 tooth reluctor) = 7,800 pulses [per mile]
7,800PPM is close enough to 8kPPM that the computer is happy (in other words the shift points will be within a couple hundred engine RPM of the programmed points). So long as it's within 10% the computer will be happy. Worst case is the shift points may be a little early or late, which can be corrected by flashing the computer with a different "axle ratio" that what it was originally programmed. Once that's done, you can change axles & gears all day long and the shift schedule (shift engine RPM) will be unaffected.


In my case, 5.13 gears and worn 39.5" Swampers is 2,665 driveshaft rpm. Doing the math we see 2,665x3 pulses = 7,995 PPM, so most of the time the speed reported by the EEC-V (on my scan tool) is the same as the speed reported by my GPS. That's purely by coincidence.

The Pro Topline heads are an aftermarket replacement F3 head. They have the same basic design but improved water jacket design to reduce the spot cooling problems (and cracking) of the OEM heads.

Last edited by mudog715; 04-11-2005 at 09:36 PM.
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Old 04-11-2005, 11:03 PM
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PS: Sorry about the typos/missing words... I tend to think faster than I can type. ;-)
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Old 04-12-2005, 11:13 AM
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Thanks Mudog 715 for all the great INFO thats alot to digest. I knew that you had to change the PSOM with a gear and tire change but I wasent aware that you also had to reflash the EEC-V.
Also please keep us posted on the prototype EDIS interface.
Thanks for your time Leadmic
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Old 11-22-2009, 09:08 PM
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Sorry to bring up an old post, I'm getting very excited about buying a '97 F350 460/5-speed truck.

So, if I read this thread correct most of the '97 460's are speed speed density? That means they don't respond to bolt-on's. Headers, exhaust, cold air intake, etc... Is that correct?
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Old 12-22-2009, 03:27 PM
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I have a set of Headman Headers on my '96 460. As I understand it our SD computers can take a certain amount of intake and exhaust changes. I completely redid my exhaust and slightly modified my intake. Getting decent fuel mileage as a result of exhaust.

Thanks for the info mudog715. Where did you get your "o2 sensor simulator"? I am working on pretty much the same project and will have more questions as I get started.
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Old 12-22-2009, 07:03 PM
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I put a drop in K&N and cut off the exhaust at the (one) big cat. Did a tune up, Autolite Plat plugs, and Taylor 8.2mm wires, and just cleaned corrosionon the cap and rotor. Hopefully will result in better mileage and power. The first tank(s) [before tuneup] were 8.5mpg, no bueno!
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Old 12-22-2009, 07:26 PM
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Here is my setup:

K&N air filter
The little plastic piece in the intake tube has a restriction that I cut out. Didn't notice improvement mileage wise. Did notice improved throttle response.
Flow through non restriction muffler 1MPG increase.
Headman headers 2 MPG increase.
Removed CAT. 4 MPG decrease. Leave cat in. O2 sensor before cat so was not problem.

The pipe that comes with the header kit would not work for me so I had to get a short pipe to connect the CAT. Thinking ahead I put a cutoff right there for future use.

$300 for exhaust (still need tailpipe though) $350 with cutoff.
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Old 12-24-2009, 01:58 PM
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Thanks for the tips, I'll have to check it out.

Yes, I left that monster cat in place. Cut off the exhaust right after it. What's ur avg mpg?
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Old 12-24-2009, 01:58 PM
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