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Old 09-02-2004, 10:02 AM
Whistle Whistle is offline
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Ford or Dodge Diesel and why?

Hey all,
I'm currently looking into getting a truck. I'm 24 and I'm buying my first house in 2 weeks and selling my Harley so we can pay for furniture, so the wife can get a new car, and so we can save a little money. I've been in and out of cars WAY too much the last few years. The plan is to buy a truck that I can keep for the next 10 years or more with my annual mileage being about 17,000.

First of all I like Ford and Dodge trucks, I've had good experiences with both Ford & Mopar vehicles in the past, so that makes the decision hard right there. I've heard a lot of negative stuff about the new 6.0L Powerstroke, so if I get a Ford I would stick with the 7.3L. I've also heard a lot of good stuff about the new Cummins 600, and their new auto tranny. I've heard some bad stuff about Dodge's older transmissions which is why I'm not considering a used Dodge. So basically I am comparing a 2004 Dodge Ram 2500 CTD 600 4X2 quad cab with a used 2001 Ford F-250 SD PSD 4X2 Crew cab with 55,000 miles on it.

The Dodge would cost me about $30k new, and the Ford about $22K.

On the one hand the Dodge uses 12 quarts of oil, and has a drain interval of 15,000 miles, and gets better fuel mileage than the Ford.

On the other hand the Ford uses 15 quarts of oil w/a drain interval of 5,000 miles and gets worse fuel mileage. On the upside the insurance is about $100/year less and the initial cost of the vehicle is about $8k less.

With regards to power, the Dodge is more powerful out of the box, but I can pump up either truck for more go, so that isn't really a consideration for me.

Either of the vehicles will make it to the 170,000 projected miles of driving I plan on doing, with the Ford possibly needing a few more parts since it already has some miles on it.

I am primarily buying the truck for basic transportation, hunting, fishing & camping. I don't have the need to tow anything right now, but I plan on getting a boat in the future and restoring some classic cars, so eventually it will be used to tow.

I'm getting the larger cab cause I'm planning on having a few kids in a couple years, and want room to be able to take them to school etc.

I know most of you here are diehard Ford guys but I could use your opinion anyway! Over the long run will either one prove itself a better vehicle or end up costing me less as far as ALL of the associated costs are concerned?

Thanks for your help!!!

Nick
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Old 09-02-2004, 10:52 AM
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well as far as i know about the 6.0l they just got a few bugs in them for the first year. ive been doing alot of research on the 6.0l and the 2005 6.0l is supposed to set the bar for diesel trucks so you might want to consider waiting for one of those. plus a bad thing about fords are they cost much more than dodge but ya know what you get what you pay for. ive noticed a bunch of little things on the ford that make it better quality than the dodge but a bunch of little things add up. well that is my opinion and good luck in your decision
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Old 09-02-2004, 10:58 AM
ramtruckman ramtruckman is offline
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Bottom line is the CTD 600 REALLY KICKS ASS! Cummins is a great engine but bumper to bumper you can't beat a Ford. Once you get past the engine in the Dodge truck you will start to have problems. Stuff will break, *****, levers and other things that move are prone to breaking in a Dodge truck. The other thing that swayed me from Dodge to Ford was the design of the Crew Cab truck. I too do a lot of driving and am having kids so I wanted a REAL crew cab truck not an extra cab with a door. I think dodge has a poor design on the four door concept. As far as engine performance you can turn up either truck fairly easy.
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Old 09-02-2004, 12:47 PM
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Although I can't really speak for the Superduties (I have a 97 F250HD CC) I did get a 2004 Dodge quadcab as a rental once and the difference in rear seat room between the two was huge. I am not a big fan on the styling of the dodge and I have heard a lot of negatives about the fit and finish of the Dodgies. On the plus side the cummins, in my opinion, is the best light truck diesel on the market. With a few mods the PSD will put out just as much as the cummins, well close at least, and the truck should last much longer with fewer problems. The resale value also seems to be much higher with the Fords as well.
Good luck,
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Old 09-02-2004, 02:39 PM
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normally i would say dodge as im a big on mileage, but i would vote 7.3L w/55k can't get a better deal than that!
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Old 09-02-2004, 03:24 PM
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uh, the cummins does not get better mileage then the 7.3L PSD. The 6.0L is the one with bad mileage guys hauling traliers with the 6.0L are getting anywhre from 5-10mpg. I get roughly 14mpg with my 7.3L hualing a trailer loaded with hay. I am getting 18 empty with diesl kleen in the tank and an airgate and if i keep my foot out of it. I have heared and witneesed the new cummins 600 overheating when pushed hard with a trailer. I think there cooling system for the higher powered serioes truck is not cutting it. You want a truck thats gonna last with 10 years and is gonna be relaible? Get a 94-97 F-Series PSD. They are better built then the newer superdutys and are plenty tough. Dodges engine is okay but the rest of the truck is crap things aleways breaking and the trannys expolding.
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Old 09-02-2004, 04:34 PM
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If you check out the Ford vs The Competition forum you will have endless comparisons of Dodge vs Ford diesel. One member, Marine Ironman, is an engineer and owns both. He's posted some really technical information there that you might want to read.
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Old 09-02-2004, 04:39 PM
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Old 09-02-2004, 06:56 PM
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Who would care about what the Cummins puts out power-wise when the Ford is just as fast or faster and tows/hauls more? I wouldn't say that the Dodge is a more powerful truck, regardless of what it's rated, because the truck itself isn't backing up the numbers they put down. Also, like has been said, Ford trucks bumper-to-bumper can't be beat.
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Old 09-02-2004, 08:10 PM
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If you compare the old to the new, yes the Cummins will appeal more to you in performance terms, but, the Power Strokes have been known to go 300,000 miles or more before any major work. I have personally seen 2 PSD's in million mile territory, 4 times what International rates it before an overhaul. The Cummins to me, is overrated, and over glorified, just because it is a 6 cylinder, doesn't make it better. The idea behind the PSD is to have power, and be fun to drive. The PSD is much better than the 7.3L N/A and 7.3L ATS Turbo diesels it replaced. The Ford will also be much more operator friendly than the Dodge. The 7.3L has less plastic covers, so that will make it easier to maintain, as well as keep looking good.
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Old 09-02-2004, 08:23 PM
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Actually, I think the Cummins has a lot less crap under the hood than a PSD in a superduty. My boss has two superdutys with PSD's and I personally find it hard to service much of anything under the hood. The Dodge with the cummins has much more room under the hood, in my opinion. I have also read on this very website how much easier it is to change injectors on a cummins as compared to a PSD. Just my $.02.
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Old 09-02-2004, 10:26 PM
The Ironman The Ironman is offline
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Whistle while you work

Whistle Man:

Sshhh. Don't say ANYTHING bad about Dodge on this forum. You will have your keyboard removed for being naughty. I own a Dodge Cummins and a Ford PSD. Sshh. (the PSD is much nicer, I highly recommend it).

Okay, your real choice is between the Ford/PSD and the next-best performing diesel and transmission on the market: The GM/Chevy with a Duramax and Allison transmission. The Ford is better, though, here's why:

PSD/TS vs DURAMAX/ALLISON

A Ford PSD/Auto-TS and a GM Duramax/Allison are driving across the salt-flats. They each have an empty trailer into which we are going to add weights until someone must downshift to maintain speed. They both must also maintain the same speed. The first forced to slow down loses the race. We will start with the most ideal speed for the GM, which is 1600 engine rpm (max torque of 590 ft-lbs). Each has a 3.73 rear axle, the best for towing and 31inch diameters tires on a 16-inch wheel. Therefore the speed they are running at is: (1600 rpm x 3.14 x 31 inches) / (0.71 x 3.73 x 1056) = 55.7 mph, which is a nice comfortable highway speed.

My assumptions for this analysis include the following:

FORD:
I’m using the published PSD torque/HP curve from the PSD brochure, adjusted upward 10 ft-lbs for their new 570 ft-lb 2005 PSD, with the exception that I smooth that back into no extra torque gain at the 325HP point. For the Duramax, I am using their published max Torque/HP as shown below, and I assume a drop-off distance of 450 rpm after peak HP, which is identical to the curve shape for the PSD. In review:

PSD:
2100 rpm = 570 ft-lb
3300 rpm = 325 HP (518 ft-lb)
3750 rpm = drop off to zero

1st: 3.09
2nd: 2.20
3rd: 1.538
4th: 1.00
5th: 0.712

Duramax 6.6L
1600 rpm = 590 ft-lb
3100 rpm = 310 HP (525 ft-lb)
3550 rpm = drop off to zero (assumed based on peak horsepower at 200 rpm less than PSD)
slope of the torque line is y = 655 – 0.040625

Allison
1st: 3.10
2nd: 1.81
3rd: 1.41
4th: 1.00
5th: 0.71

(1) DROP IN THE FIRST LOAD (874 ft-lb-rev/min): Ford must downshift to 4th


GM/Chevy work potential is 590 ft-lb x 1600rpm = 944K ft-lb-rev/min, transmission axle rpm = 1600 / .71 = 2253 rpm.

Ford must go transmission axle of 2253 rpm, so engine turns 2253 * .712 (5th gear) = 1604 rpm, Torque @ 1604 rpm = 545 ft-lbs, work potential of the Ford = 545 ft-lb x 1604rpm = 874K ft-lbs-rev/min).

The GM/Chevy has more torque reserve. We drop a load in each trailer equal to 874K ft-lbs-rev/min) of load.

The Ford must downshift. Ford downshifts, must maintain transmission axle rpm = 2253rpm, 4th gear is 1.0 so engine is going 2253rpm Torque @ 2253 rpm = 560 ft-lbs. Work = 2253 rpm x 560 ft-lb = 1,262K ft-lbs-rev/min.

(2) 2nd DROP OF MORE LOAD (944 ft-lb-rev/min): GM/Chevy must downshift to 4th

Now Ford has more torque reserve (1,262 to 944 ft-lbs-rev/min). We drop more load in the trailer and the load is upped to 944K ft-lbs-rev/min) and GM/Chevy must downshift.

GM/Chevy downshifts, must maintain transmission axle rpm = 2253 rpm. 4th gear is 1.0, so engine is going 2253 rpm. Torque @ 2253 = 563 ft-lbs. Work capacity = 2253rpm x 563 ft-lb = 1,268K ft-lb-rev/min

(3) 3rd DROP OF MORE LOAD (1,262 ft-lb-rev/min): Ford must downshift to 3rd

Now GM/Chevy has more torque reserve (1,268 to 1,262 ft-lbs-rev/min) but the margin is almost zero, and from an engineering view, within error margin. However, we will press on. We once again add more weight and the load is upped to 1,262K ft-lb and Ford must downshift.

Ford downshifts, must maintain transmission axle rpm = 2253 rpm. 3rd gear is 1.538, so engine is going 2253 rpm x 1.538 = 3465 rpm. Torque @ 3465 = 500 ft-lbs. Work capacity = 3465 rpm x 500 ft-lb = 1,733K ft-lb-rev/min

(4) 4th DROP OF MORE LOAD (1,268 ft-lb-rev/min): GM/Chevy must downshift to 3rd


Now Ford has more torque reserve (1,733 to 1,268 ft-lbs-rev//min. We add more weight and the load upped to 1,268K ft-lb and GM/Chevy must downshift.

GM/Chevy downshifts, must maintain transmission axle rpm = 2253 rpm. 3rd gear is 1.41, so engine is going 2253rpm x 1.41 = 3177 rpm. Torque @ 3177 is approx 520 ft-lb. Work capacity = 3177 rpm x 520 = 1,652K ft-lbs-rev/min.

(5) 5th DROP OF MORE LOAD (1,652 ft-lb-rev/min): GM/Chevy must downshift to 2nd

Ford STILL retains more torque reserve (1,733 to 1,652 ft-lbs-rev/min). The GM/Chevy is now in a position of never being able to catch up. The race is soon over. However, note at this point that the GM/Chevy and Ford were VERY CLOSE when Ford was in 4th Gear (1,262 ft-lb-rev/min) and when GM/Chevy was in 4th gear (1,268 ft-lb-rev/min). It’s technically and virtually a tie. But what has happened is that the ramp down of torque for Ford is flatter, going out to 518 ft-lbs at 3300 rpm, while the GM/Chevy’s ramp down is a bit steeper, going down to 520 … but 200 rpms earlier at 3100. This is THE WEAK point of the Duramax. It’s peak HP comes 200 rpm before the PSD, and the PSD will outlast.

Yet more weight is added again, and the load is upped to 1,652K and GM/Chevy must downshift again.

GM/Chevy downshifts, must maintain transmission axle rpm = 2253rpm. 2nd gear is 1.81, so engine is going 2253 x 1.81 = 4077 rpm. REDLINE. Cannot maintain that engine rpm… the truck is forced to slow down to a slower transaxle speed, and go slower with the new load of 1,652 ft-lbs-rev/min in the trailer. So what should the GM/Chevy slow down too? Well, if the max RPM for the dodge is about 3550 rpm, then 1,652 ft-lb-rev/min divided by 3550 rpm means it would need a torque of 465 ft-lbs. Can a GM/Chevy produce that amount there? We’ll assume so. The new speed of the Dodge will now be:

Speed (mph) = (3550 RPM x 3.14 x 31 inch tires) / (1.81 x 3.73 x 1056) = 48.4 mph
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Old 09-02-2004, 10:33 PM
The Ironman The Ironman is offline
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From Another Thread

Truckin magazine (Nov '04) issue has a "Heavy duty truck shootout", where they compared a Sierra, Ram 2500 and a F-250 Harley (6.0). All were diesels and 3/4 ton.
Here is a quick set of results of the test. p.s. the 250 won

without trailer

Acceleration 0-60(sec)/quarter mile/ braking (60-0)

Ram 8.85 / 16.80@80.58mph / 138.6ft
F-250 8.95 / 16.83@82.81mph / 150.90ft
Sierra 8.99 / 16.93@81.34mph / 154.37ft

with a 30 ft trailer (5 000 lbs)
Acceleration (0-60)/quarter mile/braking(30-0)

Ram 16.98 / 20.38@64.92mph / 56.37 ft
F-250 15.05 / 19.83@66.71mph / 57.68 ft
Sierra 18.42 / 21.56@66.53mph / 56.80 ft
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Old 09-02-2004, 10:43 PM
Logical Heritic Logical Heritic is offline
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I thought the ford had the best brakes.

MI. Do you know which torque rating of the dmax this was? Did you know the dmax is defueled in first and fifth?
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Old 09-02-2004, 10:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Logical Heritic
I thought the ford had the best brakes.

MI. Do you know which torque rating of the dmax this was? Did you know the dmax is defueled in first and fifth?
Look at the date. That would have been a 2004 Ford, not the new 2005. That should have been the 590 ft/lb Duramax.
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Old 09-02-2004, 10:51 PM
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