Go Back   Ford Truck Enthusiasts Forums > General > Ford vs The Competition
Sign in using an external account
Register Forgot Password?


Ford vs The Competition Technical discussion and comparison ONLY. Trolls will not be tolerated.

Welcome to Ford-Trucks Forums!
Welcome to Ford-Trucks.com.

You are currently viewing our forums as a guest, which gives you limited access to view most discussions and access our other features. By joining our community you will have access to post topics, communicate privately with other members (PM), respond to polls, upload content and access many other special features. Registration is fast, simple and absolutely free so please, join the Ford-Trucks Forums community today!





 
View Poll Results: Which gives more torque to the wheels at tow-start PSD/Torqshift or Cummins/Manual?
The calculcations are reasonable. Yes, the PSD gives more. 44 63.77%
No, despite the math, I just feel in my heart that the Cummins/manual give more. 23 33.33%
I'm a rabid dodge-fan trolling the FTE forum. Cummins, and I don't care about the math. 2 2.90%
Voters: 69. You may not vote on this poll

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Search this Thread
  #1 (permalink)  
Old 08-28-2004, 12:47 PM
Marine Ironman Marine Ironman is offline
Senior User
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 223
Marine Ironman is starting off with a positive reputation.
Who starts a tow w/ more torque: PSD or Cummins?

Given that at tow-start we have the following conditions:
  1. TORQUE of the PSD at start of tow: 560 ft-lbs x 1st gear (3.09) x 1.86 torque converter x 4.1 rear end = 13,196 ft-lbs.
  2. TORQUE of the CUMMINS at start of tow: 500 ft-lbs (clutch engagement) x 1st gear (5.63) times 4.10 tow-rear = 11,541 ft-lbs
Please respond to the poll.
Reply With Quote
  #2 (permalink)  
Old 08-28-2004, 02:12 PM
benwantland's Avatar
benwantland benwantland is offline
Elder User
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Iowa
Posts: 519
benwantland is starting off with a positive reputation.
Mr Ironman, how exactly do you figure a 1.86 multiplication factor in the torque converter?
__________________
New Truck: 1992 F-150 x-cab longbed 4x2. 351W/E40D

Old Truck: 1977 F-100 Longbed 4x2. 300/4 speed OD manual trans. Clifford intake. Hedman header. Road Demon 525 4 bbl. Dual 2.25" exhaust.
Reply With Quote
  #3 (permalink)  
Old 08-28-2004, 02:44 PM
super_ranger super_ranger is offline
New User
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: northern mi
Posts: 23
super_ranger is starting off with a positive reputation.
does it matter. who owns cummins.
u can get a cummins in a ford. i was at a dealership and saw one with a 5.9. some guy ordered it and then backed out. i dont blame him a 7.3 or 6.0 is better
Reply With Quote
  #4 (permalink)  
Old 08-28-2004, 02:49 PM
Marine Ironman Marine Ironman is offline
Senior User
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 223
Marine Ironman is starting off with a positive reputation.
1.86 is a torque conversion number given to us by a Dodge-Cummins guy, trying to insist the Cummins has more torque at tow-start.

The number, in reality, is at least 2.0. However, in the figures above, we used conservative estimates for the PSD (worst case), and liberal estimates for the Cummins (best case), just to show that it is impossible for a Cummins/Manual to lay more torque-to-wheels than a PSD/TS.

Attn Dodge Lovers: If you want a Cummins like mine, get the Auto w/ 4.10 rear end for towing. You have better towing performance that way.

MARINE IRONMAN
Reply With Quote
  #5 (permalink)  
Old 08-28-2004, 04:03 PM
benwantland's Avatar
benwantland benwantland is offline
Elder User
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Iowa
Posts: 519
benwantland is starting off with a positive reputation.
It seems to me that everyone in this subforum could use a lesson in maturity and respect.

With that said, my contention is that torque multiplication from a TC is not gear-like, it is only a function of the fact that they allow an engine to spin closer to the torque peak for a given slow road speed. It is impossible for the TC to give any more torque to the transmission than what it takes from the engine, as the rest is wasted. In other words, the effective torque availible at the input shaft of the transmission is the torque at engine speed minus whatever is being eaten up by the TC. It is not nearly as much of a low end advantage in a low-revving diesel as it is in a higher revving gasoline engine.

Also, I'm not voting in your poll, because since I don't believe your math, apparently I'm an idiot, according to the way it's worded.
__________________
New Truck: 1992 F-150 x-cab longbed 4x2. 351W/E40D

Old Truck: 1977 F-100 Longbed 4x2. 300/4 speed OD manual trans. Clifford intake. Hedman header. Road Demon 525 4 bbl. Dual 2.25" exhaust.

Last edited by benwantland; 08-28-2004 at 04:09 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #6 (permalink)  
Old 08-28-2004, 05:35 PM
DieselDonor7.3's Avatar
DieselDonor7.3 DieselDonor7.3 is offline
Senior User
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Anchorage, AK
Posts: 181
DieselDonor7.3 is starting off with a positive reputation.
Hey Ironman:

As benwantland and tmyers are the only people I've seen so far that know what they're talking about and use unbiased logic I think you should take notes from them.
Reply With Quote
  #7 (permalink)  
Old 08-28-2004, 08:23 PM
Marine Ironman Marine Ironman is offline
Senior User
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 223
Marine Ironman is starting off with a positive reputation.
It's a free country. It's a free forum. Anyone can post a poll. Anyone can suggest a new equation. Anyone can post to this thread and give their own calculations.

I, for one, will go on record and state that a torque converter does, indeed, multiply torque when the rpm of the engine is higher than the rpm of the transmission. This is due to a centrifugal force from fluid being accelerated out through vanes in the TC. The fluid comes in at a small diameter. It goes out at a larger diameter. This is practically the same as a the principle involved in a regular gear (change in diameter = multiplication or division of the torque input). There is an RPM difference too, just as in a regular gear. The "effect" of the TC ONLY lasts as long as that RPM is different ... JUST LIKE a regular gear.

Anyone is free to announce they don't think a torque converter multiplies torque during acceleration. But, respectfully, it is because of ignorant statements like this, that I have taken the time to discuss some math & physics in several threads in this forum, in the hopes of educating some people.

I'm an engineer, so I know when/where to draw the line on cold hard facts and principles of physics. I make my assumptions and postulates known. I give estimations and calculations. If anyone can give better assumptions, explain their logic, and show their calculations or point out my errors ... hey ... I'm completely open to that. Fire away.

The Marine Ironman
Reply With Quote
  #8 (permalink)  
Old 08-28-2004, 08:50 PM
Racerguy's Avatar
Racerguy Racerguy is offline
Super Moderator
 
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: BC, Canada
Posts: 12,666
Racerguy is a splendid one to beholdRacerguy is a splendid one to beholdRacerguy is a splendid one to beholdRacerguy is a splendid one to beholdRacerguy is a splendid one to beholdRacerguy is a splendid one to beholdRacerguy is a splendid one to beholdRacerguy is a splendid one to behold
For some info on how a torque convertor sends more torque to the transmission than the engine actually produces take a look at http://www.tciauto.com/tech_info/tor..._explained.htm
and http://www.carcarecouncil.org/Auto_T...onverter.shtml
__________________
Dave - FTE moderator
Forum Guidelines
this space for rent
Reply With Quote
  #9 (permalink)  
Old 08-28-2004, 09:24 PM
Marine Ironman Marine Ironman is offline
Senior User
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 223
Marine Ironman is starting off with a positive reputation.
Thanks, SpeedRacer. I swear ... If I posted a poll on "is 2+2=4?" .... I'd get arguments from the Dodge-Cummins crowd.

For Benwantland, here is the link to the PSD/TS brochure, and Logical Heretic has pointed out that on page three, under the gear ratio table, it lists the TS stall torque ratio to be 1.86. Racerman has provided some educational links which explain in laymen terms how a TC multiplies torque. Go educate yourself, and report back for duty.

Marine Ironman
Reply With Quote
  #10 (permalink)  
Old 08-28-2004, 09:26 PM
Marine Ironman Marine Ironman is offline
Senior User
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 223
Marine Ironman is starting off with a positive reputation.
oops, forgot the link:

http://www.fordvehicles.com/images/t...el_Brochur.pdf
Reply With Quote
  #11 (permalink)  
Old 08-28-2004, 10:16 PM
DieselDonor7.3's Avatar
DieselDonor7.3 DieselDonor7.3 is offline
Senior User
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: Anchorage, AK
Posts: 181
DieselDonor7.3 is starting off with a positive reputation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marine Ironman
It's a free country. It's a free forum. Anyone can post a poll. Anyone can suggest a new equation. Anyone can post to this thread and give their own calculations.
Just like this poll is going to prove nothing and be a waste of space. Anyone that knows nothing but Ford rules can come on here and vote in favor of the Ford, and this is a Ford enthusiast forum so I can bet that is exactly whats going to happen. So guess what, your poll is in favor of the PSD... now what?
Reply With Quote
  #12 (permalink)  
Old 08-28-2004, 10:32 PM
Marine Ironman Marine Ironman is offline
Senior User
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 223
Marine Ironman is starting off with a positive reputation.
DieselDoner, you're just sour grapes. I've seen no math or calculations from you. In post-87, you agreed, and I quote "the PSD/auto beats the Cummins manual even worse than the Cummins auto". I.e. you agree.

I just finally called everyone's hand, that's all. No more raises. Lay your cards on the table. Calculate ... or zip the beer hole. If you think the numbers are different ... show me your numbers. Otherwise, my three Kings win the hand.
Reply With Quote
  #13 (permalink)  
Old 08-29-2004, 11:06 AM
benwantland's Avatar
benwantland benwantland is offline
Elder User
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Iowa
Posts: 519
benwantland is starting off with a positive reputation.
Sorry Marine Ironman, that was ignorant on my part. My thinking was based on the fact that with a torque converter, if an engine produces more torque, it stalls higher. Just seemed like common sense to me. Ironically, I have even glanced over the TCI page posted, but never really read the whole thing. If TCI says it, I believe it; they build good transmissions and compononents.


But, even with that said, I do not see it possible that, even negating frictional losses, a torque converter could ever produce more torque than a gear reduction that allowed the same rpm differential. And, with that said, the multiplication factor (shouldn't there be a constant variable letter that we can attribute to that?), would be dynamic, based on the load behind the vehicle, because the engine is going to be able to rev harder without movement the greater the load it encounters... also, if the same trans/TC were installed behind another engine with more or less max torque, the stall speed would be different, and thus the multiplication factor.

But.... the numbers seem legit, so I'll give you a vote for the Ford. Also, the Cummins 600 produces 440 lb-ft at 1000 rpm, so there's another advantage for ford.
__________________
New Truck: 1992 F-150 x-cab longbed 4x2. 351W/E40D

Old Truck: 1977 F-100 Longbed 4x2. 300/4 speed OD manual trans. Clifford intake. Hedman header. Road Demon 525 4 bbl. Dual 2.25" exhaust.

Last edited by benwantland; 08-29-2004 at 11:20 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #14 (permalink)  
Old 08-29-2004, 02:24 PM
IB Tim's Avatar
IB Tim IB Tim is online now
Site Administrator
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: 3rd Rock
Posts: 112,221
IB Tim has a superb reputationIB Tim has a superb reputationIB Tim has a superb reputationIB Tim has a superb reputationIB Tim has a superb reputationIB Tim has a superb reputationIB Tim has a superb reputationIB Tim has a superb reputationIB Tim has a superb reputationIB Tim has a superb reputationIB Tim has a superb reputation
DieselDoner, you're just sour grapes.

On of the BEST things he has been called...
__________________
Administrator
tim.lamkin@internetbrands dot com
Life is not only time……paradoxically, it is the denial of time!
What lies behind us and what lies before us are tiny matters compared to what lies within us.

When you are down...look up...get up...and don't ever give up....
Reply With Quote
  #15 (permalink)  
Old 08-29-2004, 06:12 PM
Marine Ironman Marine Ironman is offline
Senior User
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 223
Marine Ironman is starting off with a positive reputation.
Benwantland ... so it's 440 ft-lbs at 1000 rpm, eh? I got lured into a much higher (500) estimate because the dodge-ladies kept crying when I guessed it at 450. If you calculate backwards from the the PSD is doing, you'd need 553 out of the Cummins at just off idle (1000 rpm) to match the PSD anyway. Of course .... it'd be a cold day in Heck before you get that. (ssshhhh. The dodge ladies think their torque curve is so flat that it's just under 600 ft-lbs at idle. Let's don't tell them, cause they get all agitated and stirred up).

IRONMAN
Reply With Quote
Old 08-29-2004, 06:12 PM
Reply

Go Back   Ford Truck Enthusiasts Forums > General > Ford vs The Competition

Tags
150, anchorage, cummins, dodge, ft, lamkin, much, outpull, pounds, psd, semi, tim, torque, towing, tows

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On
Forum Jump



All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:22 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.5
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Advertising - Terms of Use - Privacy Statement - Jobs
This forum is owned and operated by Internet Brands, Inc., a Delaware corporation. It is not authorized or endorsed by the Ford Motor Company and is not affiliated with the Ford Motor Company or its related companies in any way. Ford® is a registered trademark of the Ford Motor Company.

vbulletin Admin Backup