I recently aquired a 2004 F250 short bed 4x4 with the 6.8L V10 and the 4.3 ratio. Interested in trying out towing a fifth wheel. Don't know anything about what to look for except for not trusting a salesman. Place to start would be what size 5er would tow well.
PS - this is my first post to a forum!

 

Thanks for joining us in the Towing forum!

You already know the GVWR of your truck is 8800#, so first off find the unladen weight of the truck. Take it to a scale or someone here with a truck similar to yours may post a weight. Then add the weight of yourself and passengers and any gear you will carry in the truck. That's your tare weight. Subtract tare from gross and that figure will be the weight available for 5th wheel pin weight. You can use 20% of 5th wheel trailer GVWR as a rule of thumb. Add pin weight to tare weight and if it doesn't exceed the truck GVWR you're good to go.

Next, check your owners guide for the GCWR, which is the max gross weight of the truck and trailer in combination. I think most SuperDuties are 20,000 GCWR.

So you will need to look for a 5th wheel that won't exceed the GVWR of the truck or the GCWR of the vehicle combination. With an F250 you will most likely reach the trucks GVWR limit before you reach the max GCWR. So this may limit the size of 5th wheels you would consider purchasing.

Also, with a short bed you need to be concerned with the length of the trailer overhang hitting the back of the cab during tight turns. For that reason and the heavier pin weight of a 5th wheel, you may also want to consider a travel trailer. Travel trailer's have a lighter tongue weight of aprox. 10% and they are generaly lighter overall compared to the same size 5th wheel. So a travel trailer would allow choices of a larger trailer with more living space. Not trying to talk you out of a 5th wheel, just letting you know there are other options.

 

Although i am not old enough for a 5er, with a shortbed you will need to look at the traveling/movable hitch. These are needed for sharp turns and parking from what I have been told. One guy has reportedly had to replace the window and/or have the cab repaired a couple of times due to turns with the shortbox.

Also the weight of the 5er can be gruesom and the v10 is not exactly economical to begin with. Look for one of the light weight trailers if ya can or consider a TT as an alternative.

 

Should have joined this forum before I bought the truck. Compared to what I paid, it would have not been much more to get a 1 ton and a long bed.

Just of the top of the head, can anyone give me an approximation of what weight 5er I could get (have super cab and me, wife and dog weigh 375#)?

I have been looking at mfg specs and they say the the GVRW = gross dry weight = carrying capacity. Should I be using (trusting) this figure as what I could buy. Also they give a hitch value: what is this for?

 

Figure a 8,000# gross weight 5th wheel will have 1,600# pin weight. That's just my guess on what you may have left for payload. Could be more or less. Depends too, on whether you have a supercab or crewcab. The 4wd adds weight too. But the V10 is a lot lighter than a diesel, so that's to your advantage. Quickest way to take the guess work out is to find a public scale and get the truck weighed. Look for a truck stop with a CAT scale or look up one in the yellow pages. Sometimes a moving & storage will have a scale you can use. Other places like a landfill or metal scrap yard will have a scale you can drive onto if you ask.

 

Newjim,

lets say your truck is a CC SB, with your wife dog gear and a full tank of fuel you are probably right around 6500 to 6700 lbs (This is a guess only to tell is to weigh it). A reese 16K slider hitch (for short beds) weighs 160 lbs. so lets say total is 6860 lbs. So with a GVWR of 8800lbs you can have a trailer with a pin weight of 1940lbs. Now for your truck your GCVWR or GCWR is 17,000 (V10). 17,000-6860=the maximum your trailer and gear can weigh..

5ers are great I love mine do not let anyone talk you out of one. You just need to find the right one!! Check out my public profile.

Fire Rooster

 

We have a 5vr also. Its a Crossroads Crusier CF28BH. She's 30' long empty weighs 7000. Loaded she's just under 10,000. We use the Husky 16 Rock 'n' Roll Slider hitch. Even with a long bed it's to your advantage to get r'n'r hitches incase you are ever in a spot hitching that is not level with trailer. Look at sign and see what we have. There are plenty of lighterweight 5vrs out there. As for height from the ground to underbelly that you are going to have to watch too since you sound like you are on some roads that are rough terrain. If you like p.m. me and I'll give you a link to a forum where you can get great info on the several brands.

Mrs. Plumberman
He posts here, I post there.

 

I'd also recommend a sliding hitch. They usually only cost about $200 more than a regular one. Husky and Hijacker are good ones to look at. Cheap insurance if you have a short bed.

 

Thanks for all the help. Went to the feed store and weighed 6900# with gas and passengers. So say 7050# with sliding hitch (tare weight?). If GCWR is 20,000 that leaves 12,950# for the gross trailer weight and contents and water? The truck GVWR is 8800# so that leaves 1750# for the trailer pin weight, right?

My wife likes this Mountaineer 298RLS. It says its Gross Dry Weight is 8,910# and Carry Capacity of 3,130. Would this be the GVWR for the trailer? If I use 20% of this, as Horsepuller suggests, I come up with 2,408# which is will over the 1750# calculated above. So way too heavy, right? Using reverse calc, it looks like the 5er has to weigh less than 8750#. The spec also gives a figure of 1,880 for "hitch", know what this would mean?

Is there a way to get the GVWR of the truck up without getting a new truck?

 

There isn't any way to legally (as far as the truck stated rating) increase the GVWR of the truck, however, the F250 and F350 in the Superduty years are nearly identical, the main differences being the 4" rear axle spacer block in the F350 -vs- the 2" block in the F250 and, depending on how the truck was optioned, the tires, rear springs (overload spring or not), and rear sway bar. The F250 with the camper package has this stuff and is for all practical purposes the same as an F350 single rear wheel truck, which has a GVWR of 9900 lbs. My feeling is that as long as you are not over your rear tire's load capacity rating, you should be safe loading the truck up to 9900 lbs GVW. The backend will squat more since you have the shorter rear blocks, but you can change those out for F350 blocks for not much money....

I'm not one to advocate overloading a truck, but in the case of the F250 and F350 SRW, they are so nearly identical that I don't feel it will be a safety problem to go with the F350 rating, provided the tires are up to the task and the truck is handling the load fine on the road.

The 8910 lbs dry weight of the trailer plus the 3130 lbs payload capacity should equal the GVWR of the trailer. The 1880 lb spec for the hitch is probably what the pin weight is supposed to be when the trailer is in stock and unloaded form.

 

Unfortunately I didn't get the camper package. Is the GVWR for the 350 9900#? I have the standard "E" tires, how can I tell their load rating? And to show my complete ignorance, I have heard the term air bags, what are they and can they help with a payload problem?

 

NewJim, this may help.
I went to my files and pulled my weight ticket from the CAT Scales:

First, let me start off by welcoming you to the FTE forum. Congratulations on your truck and I hope you enjoy many many miles of good service from it. Now, on to the 5th wheel issue. Legally, pre-05 F250's aren't really rated well for towing 5th wheels, especially if you have a PSD, Crew Cab and 4x4 (as I do). I bought my truck specifically to tow a 5th wheel toy hauler. Looking at the 8800 lb GVWR and the 20,000 lb GCVWR and figured I was well covered. Well, to my surprise, I learned that my truck weighs in at 7720 lbs (with full tank off gas, wife, kids, gear and hitch). That only leaves me with 1080 lbs of payload! Your truck weighs about 800 lbs less than mine, which sounds about right (500lbs for the V10 vs PSD plus gear and hitch....)

My trailer weighs in at 11,280 lbs with toys, fuel, food, water and gear. The Pin Weight is 1810 lbs now. I say "now" because when I first got the RV I had 1920 lbs of pin weight and my truck sagged pretty noticable in the rear. I've since added a set of rear air bags to level the truck when towing and had the combination re-weighed and I now have less weight in the box because the truck and trailer is sitting level now. Additionally, the truck is much more manageable with the airbags. Having a level truck and trailer makes all the difference in the world. My headlights are aimed properly, my stopping distance is much more improved and over-all driveability is tons better.

Anyway...I'm getting off the subject:
So, with the pin weight, my GVW is 9530 lbs. 730 lbs OVER my GVWR
With the RV, my GCVW is 19,000 lbs. 1000 lbs UNDER my GCVWR.
Pin weight is 1810 lbs. About 16% of total trailer weight.

Now, there is something else to consider as well. GAWR (Gross Axle Weight Rating)
My front axle rating is 4800 lbs.
My rear axle rating is 4670 lbs.
Ford includes, or factors in the springs when calculating axle weight ratings.
If you notice, the combined axle weight rating is 9470 lbs where the GVWR is only 8800 lbs. Which sparks a whole different conversation topic that I'll summarize by stating, don't combine axle weight ratings....it doesn't work. GVWR is the truck's rating. GAWR are individual axle values. So, that being said:
W/O RV, my front axle has 4620 lbs of weight. My rating is 4800 lbs, so I'm 180 lbs UNDER my rating.
My rear axle has 3100 lbs of weight. My rating is 4670 lbs, so I'm 1,570 lbs UNDER my rating.
With the RV, my front axle has 4600 lbs of weight. (20 lbs LESS than unloaded)
My rear axle has 4910 lbs of weight. 240 lbs OVER the axle rating.

So, to summarize. My total vehicle weight is 19,000 lbs, 1000 lbs under the rating.
My total truck weight is 9510, (give or take 20 lbs lost at the front axle). 710 lbs over the trucks rating.
I'm good on the front axle, but 240 lbs over the rating on the rear axle.

So, as you see, I'm really pushing things legally. If I had the V10, I'd probably be legal on the GVWR but over on the GCVWR. So, with the F250 the maximum 5th wheel trailer weight is around 10,000 lbs to be legal. Fire Rooster figures the V10 has a 17,000 lbs GCVWR, so your 7,000 lb truck with 10,000 lb trailer is right in there. 16% to 17% pin weight is 1600 lbs to 1700 lbs. Again, right in there.
The PSD is rated for 20,000 lbs GCVWR, but can't legally handle the pin weight....so a 10,000 lb trailer is about all the F250's can handle either way. Throw all this out for those of you that have '05 model 250's. You guys are golden, Ford finally stepped to the plate and listed some ratings that work for most of us.

I hope this info helps. Ignore Dry Weight, they lie. I've NEVER seen an accurate Dry Weight listing on any RV. Shop by GVWR for the trailer, then when you have made a choice, take it to a scale BEFORE you sign anything. Then you'll know how much cargo you can pack in the thing before you buy it. I recommend a 10,000 gross vehicle weight rating for your 5th wheel. Happy shopping and safe towing.

 

Thanks gchavez for the info. I'll add it to all the good help that has been given. Don't know what you mean by Ford fixing the problems with the '05 F250s; have they increased the load capacities? Also, if I understand you correctly, air bags will stop the back end from sagging under the king pin weight but will not increase the amount you can carry? One other item is the GCVWR: my manual says 20,000 lbs because I have the 4.3 rear differential (?), not the 17,000 lbs you and Fire Rooster figure. Am I misreading the spec (or is the spec misreading)?

However, I still think I don't understand what the bottom line is: how big a unit I can get away with?. I don't think we are close with wanting about a 30' unit. I guess these would very greatly in weight depending on things like winterize packages (spring skiing while camping the resort parking lot), etc. Keystone gives a dry weight and a carrying weght which they say is the GVWR. Don't believe them?!? Also, when they give a carrying weight, does that include my gear or just the water, propane, etc?

If I dump the truck and get another one (I've made worse investments in my life), the next question is what one should get? I think I have alergies to diesel fumes (I have to internally circulate the air behind smoking diesels or else I'll get a sneeze attack) and the lariat 60-40 seat is not that comfortable. I know this is a Ford site, but are GMC trucks good pullers? They are a lot more plush and comfortable and one can recirculate the air without having to set the AC unit to max.

 

Newjim,

Your manual is prbably right if you have the 4:10, I assumed you had the 3:73. Sorry. I would not sell your truck as you will be just fine with a 5er, like Gchavez stated, just try and stay under the, 10,000lb mark. As for the airbags you are right they do not increase your weight ratings but they do assist the truck in sitting level when loaded, the provide stability and safety as well. I love mine!! Look in my gallery as I have pictures of them etc. The load range E tires are exactly what you will need for towing. If you want to go with the Chevy you can, but that is a personal choice only you can make. You did not make a mistake buying the F250. So feel good about your truck and stick close to this site you'll be fine. PM me if you have any questions. I will give you my # and we can talk. Good luck man!!!

Fire Rooster

 

NewJim, yes the GVWR for the '99-'04 F350 SRW trucks is 9900 lbs. Rear axle gross weight rating is 6830 lbs and stock rear tires are load range E, 3415 lbs each. Look on your tire sidewall for the actual load rating listed as xxxx lbs @ full pressure, cold. Run your tires at full pressure when loaded and check the pressure when the tires are cold .

GChavez, the rear GAWR is only 4670 lbs on the F250's, eh? That's quite a drop from the 350 SRW's 6830 lb rating, with the same axle, same main springs, same brakes, wheels and tires on both trucks....