About the Credible sources, you think he is? He does have the degree but there is something that is more important. IMPARTIALITY.. There I've said it. Do you really think the arguments you make about pulling and longevity and power and and and would stand up against the scrutiny of a diesel engine designer?

Heres the scenario, somewhere in some back halls of the major diesel engine designers have their computers on looking at these boards. They keep reading until the inevitable, someone at one and then another company stands up and shouts "THEY'VE FOUND US OUT!!! THOSE GUYS KNOW ABOUT THE V8" Followed by each company one by one racing back into their offices switching on the lights and getting to work on their new v8's while CEO's are canceling production on the OLD inlines.

Coming soon to a theatre near you.

 

dspencer, do you have anything other than the Cummins/PSD debate to add to FTE? It seems you are only here to start trouble.

 

If you have to have a degree in mechanical engineering to have a valuable opinion on this site, I guess about 99.9% of us better stop posting. One of my friends does not even have a high school education, and he designed a piece of machinery that greatly outperformed the equipment built by the "mechanical engineers." He is quite wealthy now. You do not have to have a degree in Mechanical engineering to have a valid opinion.

 

You hadn't heard, The inline diesel engine a a piece of junk. The major diesel manufacturers like Cummins, Cat, Detroit, Volvo, etc. etc. etc. are just too stupid to figure that out. They should go consult IHC, since IHC has such a huge market share of the Diesel industry. You know, it looks like Cummins would have figured out that new v block thing, but I guess they are too slow.
Come on Guys. The PSD is a great engine. It is just a far stretch for you all to be skewing numbers to "prove" it is more powerful than the 600 Cummins. Simply put, It is not more powerful. It is not even as powerful.
I would think that Ford lovers, like myself, would be jumping up and down and screaming at Ford to "build the most powerful engines." Instead, everyone seems to defend Fords engines and twist numbers to try to prove their point. If Ford biyers are content with underpowered engines, compared to the competition, Ford will continue to give them to us. The rest of the Ford truck is GREAT, but Ford needs to give us a few more ponies and a few more ft lbs. This is true across the board, not just in the diesel. I reall dont give two flips how clean it is and what mileage it gets. I want to know how quick it will light the tires up. How well it will pull extemely overloaded trailers. Will it outrun the dodge in a good old street race. Those are the things that are important to me. So what if it gets 1/2 mile gal better fuel mileage than the competition. I dont care.

 

ga302p, Ford doesn't own Cummins, that was a joke. Tests have proven time and time again that the PSD is the better engine in a light duty truck. Just because an engine is great in a medium or heavy duty truck does not make it the best option in a light duty truck. The PSD is the top dog in the tests. I don't care about factory flywheel specs, they are meaningless. What is important is how much power makes it to the rear wheels and how that power is managed over the entire range of the engine. For these reasons, the PSD is the better engine in a light duty truck.

 

How did the rumors get started about Ford owning cummins. I have read articles that said Ford was major share holder in Cummins. I have also read Cummins web site which says Ford is not.

 

Wow everyone once in awhile some stray into the dark side......lets not make any of these debates personal, you know the name calling.....or subliminal messages...


Now I am not asking for a group hug……… either…just incase any of you where going there

 

At one time Ford owned a small percentage of Cummins but they no longer own any part of Cummins.

 

If you ignore the results with the manuals. Then yes.

I love the medium duty comparison because it ignores what the PSD is designed for. Hell who it was designed by. Go look at internationals lineup. Medium duty diesels. They are low revving torque monsters. Goverened at like 2600 rpm.
The ford is the only app its rated higher. Cummins does the same thing with the 5.9. Upps the governer for streetability in a light duty app. In a medium duty you dont have the need for speed. Something that can tow heavy and last a long time is all you need.

 

For goodness sake.We have must have discussed every possible angle on diesel engines known to man and were still going. 38 pages worth. Ford has the engine and truck. Dodge has cummins but a truck not worth talking about. Dodge is not gaining in sales as Ford is. Simple fact Ford is the better truck the complete truck. I want the whole deal. Im not just buying a engine. Im buying a truck. Ford end of discussion. Dodge is just a fad that quickly wears off after you have had one for awhile. You realize just how good Ford is. Im done. I think we have covered everything. I hope.

 

International also uses a different tuning, and Ford sells a lot of those Internaitonal engines. The design of the V8 allows the engine to be adapted much better to light duty applications. I DIDN'T say that no medium duty engines are good in a light duty truck, I DID say that just because an engine is good in a medium duty application does not make it good in a light duty truck.

Testing manual transmissions leaves too many variables that include the driver. Face it, the PSD is a better light duty diesel engine.

 

Gents,

I have 168 hour degree in what is called "B.S. Naval Architecture". Eight semesters divided into that equal about 21 hours per semester. This was one of the 3 toughest degrees at my school. It is a blend of mechanical engineering and systems engineering. I had multiple courses in engine design specifically, covering steam engines, gas turbines, nuclear physics, large maritime diesel engines, diesel-electric designs, and so forth. I had regular thermodynamics, and a special course in engine thermodynamics. At the school we have bench-mounted engines for testing, a sub-critical reactor, and even a genuine Navy steam boiler. My senior design project, working w/ a team of students, was to design an offshore re-supply vessel for the north slope of alaska, a diesel-electric icebreaker. My masters is a 30 hour system engineering degree.


I had all the math, physics, chemistry, dynamics, statics, and etc that all mechanical engineers take. I had strength of materials, a propeller design course, an engine-math course.

Then ... I earned some silver dolphins on a nuclear submarine cruise. I went to sea on quite a few different ships. I crewed our YP vessels up to Maine, back down to Norfolk and back into Annapolis. These are twin-screw diesels.

In the Naval industry, some nomenclature is different, but the physics are the same. We have "shaft horse power (SHP)". We have many diesels of all sizes on ships, often to generate electricity and run pumps. Those YP's are driven by detriot diesels. We have reduction gearing, bull gears, "thrust" bearings to apply the forward force to the boat. We have banks of diesels to run generators that then run electric motors. We have direct diesel connections. We have simple engine-shaft direct connections, and we have complex multi-input transmissions.

I'm not a car engineer. That, I'm not.

But torque ... impulse-momentum ... etc. I can tell you about that. Delta P for the PSD is greater, my friend. While work is applying the force through a distance, applying work over time is part of the understanding here. Over time ... because the PSD has a larger area under it's entire torque curve .... over time ... the PSD applies more net torque. The overall impulse of the engine is greater, and the change in momentum, both angular on the drive shaft, and to the truck body as a whole is greater. The PSD will impart the largest change in momentum to the truck, causing it to out-accelerate the competitors.

Logical Heretic: you stated that the transmission of the Ford makes up for the PSD having less area under it's curve. That defies physics ... why? ... because the net output of the system cannot be greater than the net input. The transmission would have to create energy for your claim to be true.

Now, what baffles Dodge-guys is how their great Cummins (it is a great engine) can have 40 more ft-lbs of torque and not win these things. The answer:

• The PSD has more area under it's torque curve

This fact means a certain condition is true: The total amount of potential work that the engine can make is greater. The "pool" from which it can draw is a deeper and bigger pool. He with the biggest cookie jar holds the most cookies.

Over time, the PSD reaches into all portions of that curve. The net torque over TIME is greater coming out of the PSD. Think of it this way. If you measured the torque number out of the engines, once per second, for the duration of their operation .... the AVERAGE torque output of the Ford will be greater. That is a higher average over time. Torque x time = angular impulse. That angular impulse. The moment of inertia of the shaft does not change, and so it's angular velocity changes. Angular velocity = angular displacement x time. Over the same amount of time, more angular displacment occurs ... the angular displacement = angular displacment of the rear wheels factored by the rear differential divider. More angular displacement of the rear wheels = more road traveled.

• This is the physical explanation as to why a Ford/PSD is X amount of feet further down the road than the Dodge or Chevy in the tow test

My degree is ABET accredited. I passed the EIT exam, as a majority of USNA graduates do (a litmus test to the quality of the degrees earned there). Since then I have received a certification as a Systems Engineer from two major aerospace companies. I have published work in professional engineering journals. I have taught graduate engineering courses, including 5 years teaching at a university.

I own a Cummins. I own a PSD.

Last point: you will not see tow tests of a manual against an auto because the manual will lose. The dodge 4-speed auto, yes, gives it a disadvantage to the ford 5-speed auto ... hence ... the Ford/PSD out-tows the dodge in that test.

Final point: Someone misunderstood that all inline engines are evil and V8's somehow the bread-n-butter of the universe. If one engine solved all .... we'd have only one engine.

 

You waste your time providing the same answer over and over to the same posts by the same people. The collective skulls are much thicker than the double hulls and bildges that you folks build into the modern vessel.

 

You're right, it's a waste of breath. Obviously these guys don't follow logic and are only interested in making the Cummins look good no matter what test results and sales show. It blows my mind that we have people who don't own a Ford diesel, have never owned a Ford diesel, and will never own a Ford diesel participating on a Ford enthusiast website for the sole purpose of posting in only and any thread that has to do with the Cummins. The almighty Cummins 5.9 is a legend in their own minds.

I guess it doesn't matter, the I-2 Hemi Diesel is not too far off from reaching the public.

 

I must leave but I will offer you this; I agree that people have heard the truth over and over again but cannot get it. I don't follow the logic that says: the only test that compares a motor using like transmissions is the ONLY one that is no good. The auto is the desireable transmission for towing when 90+ percent of towing is done in this country with the manual. The auto is perfered for towing when the manual is more efficient. The engine with the most buybacks is the best. The motor with ford programming(ford programming usually mentioned as reason as much of reason for buybacks, at least most of fixes were programming) is the reason that the v configuration can exceed the I in performance.


I didn't start much of what I have been posting, mostly using common sense and what is actually used in the world to compare to the arguments made by ford enthusiasts about why the ford rocks and others don't.

The ford sells well, can't argue that. Have said that before. But check resale. Put in comparable trucks dodge for ford and use realistic numbers for say a 8 plus year old or older truck. When I bought mine I checked resale for ten year old trucks. Since I could buy several thousands less for mine and it was more valuable ten years back has to say something. I wonder how the 6liter will stack up ten years from now.

And don't worry, I hear they are coming out with another flash that will fix the remainder of the powerstroke problems.