3000 Mile Oil Change Intervals - A Hypothetical Discussion
#1
04-29-2004, 06:33 AM
3000 Mile Oil Change Intervals - A Hypothetical Discussion
The 3,000-mile or 3-month oil change has long been the standard in the United States, and has served Americans well. Over the last decade, however, there has been a gradual shift away from this traditional oil change interval. But maintaining a 3,000-mile or 3-month schedule is cheap insurance and many motorists would do well to retain it. Let's answer some questions about this robust maintenance regimen.
Q: How often should I change my oil?
A: Every three months or 3,000 miles, whichever comes first. It's cheap insurance.
Q: Do you actually know anybody who drives less than 3,000 miles in three months?
A: One guy. He drives about 200 miles a month, and takes the public transit system the rest of the time.
Q: So this guy should change his oil, even though it only has 600 miles on it?
A: You never know what could have happened to the oil while it was just sitting there. It's cheap insurance.
Q: At 200 miles a month, wouldn't it be cheaper to just rent a car?
A: We're getting off topic here.
Q: My owner's manual doesn't say anything about 3,000-mile oil changes. It says to go longer than that.
A: Car manufacturers are in the business of selling cars, and they believe if they can make your engine wear out prematurely, you'll go back to them for another car. The 3,000-mile interval is cheap insurance against this.
Q: Well, the car has an oil life monitor that tells me when to change the oil. Can't I go by that?
A: How can the car possibly know what's going on in the oil? They make those things go too long for the same reason they print inflated numbers in the owner's manual.
Q: Actually, I think they use a complex mathematical model tailored to the specific engine and oil type, which uses input from the variables measured by the engine computer such as RPM and operating temperature.
A: And you TRUST them?
Q: But if the engine fails prematurely, doesn't the manufacturer eat the cost of repairs during the warranty period?
A: Oh but it won't fail until the car is outside the warranty period.
Q: So how is that a premature failure?
A: It won't be TOO far outside the warranty period, you can be sure of that.
Q: Okay, so car manufacturers carefully craft their oil recommendations specifically so that the engine fails after the warranty period so they don't have to pay for it, but not too far after the warranty period so consumers will come back to them for another car, instead of buying from a competitor that doesn't yank them around like this?
A: They ALL do it. And the 3,000-mile interval is cheap insurance against it.
Q: You're saying that if your engine blows up with 60,000 miles on it, you'll go back to the same manufacturer for another car?
A: My engine will never blow up, because I'm using a 3,000-mile interval.
Q: Can I switch to synthetic oil?
A: Sure. Synthetics offer many technological advances, including superior viscosity stability, better extreme-temperature performance, higher levels of acid neutralization ability, more shear strength, improved film cling, and of course slight improvements in fuel economy and horsepower in some engines. Great stuff, synthetics.
Q: So how often should I change the synthetic oil?
A: Every three months or 3,000 miles. Even with synthetics, it's cheap insurance.
Q: Um, the stuff costs two to three times what conventional oil costs. That's cheap insurance?
A: Compared to how much it would cost to buy an engine, it's cheap.
Q: What evidence is there to show that running extended drains on synthetic oil will cause the engine to fail?
A: I don't have any, because I've never had an engine fail, because I change the oil every 3,000 miles. Now that's what I call cheap insurance!
Q: Uncountable studies performed by auto manufacturers, oil producers, industry analysts, and research groups like the SAE, both here and in Europe, have shown that synthetic oil can hold up for extended drain intervals. Why shouldn't I have some faith in this body of evidence?
A: You don't see anything on the bottle about extended drains, do you? They all say to follow manufacturer recommendations.
Q: You don't think that has anything to do with the litigous attitude in the U.S., and the oil companies' efforts to cover their butts from every idiot who runs his oil-burning 1986 Dodge Caravan completely dry?
A: What?
Q: Never mind. Amsoil says right on the bottle that you can run extended intervals.
A: And you TRUST them??
Q: Er, I thought you said--
A: Best to stick with 3,000-mile intervals. Cheap insurance.
Q: Isn't it wasteful to get rid of perfectly good synthetic oil at 3,000 miles?
A: There's plenty of oil to be had, and it's cheap insurance.
Q: There's plenty of beer to be had, but you don't drink half the bottle and pour the rest down the drain.
A: Oil isn't beer.
Q: Here's a hypothetical question. Each year, Americans consume 640 million gallons of motor oil. Even if we just went from your 3,000-mile interval to a 5,000-mile interval, that'd save 256 million gallons of oil. Most estimates for oil recycling peg the amount of recycled motor oil at no better than half, so even with the most generous estimate we'd still save 128 million gallons of oil pollution. In other words, if everyone increased their oil change interval by 2,000 miles, we'd save the nation the equivalent of 13 Exxon Valdez accidents each year. Isn't that a worthwhile goal?
A: MY oil gets recycled.
Q: That's not the point. If you use a quality oil, it seems like you could extend your drain intervals by a little bit, helping to reduce pollution and lower your operating costs at the same time.
A: I've never lost an engine using the 3,000-mile interval.
Q: You've never lost an engine using a 5,000-mile interval either.
A: Look, it's just cheap insurance.
Q: Do you wear a helmet in the shower? After all, there are over 110,000 bathtub and shower injuries per year. At 30 bucks, a helmet would be cheap insurance.
A:
Q: Hello?
A: Go away.
Q: How often should I change my oil?
A: Every three months or 3,000 miles, whichever comes first. It's cheap insurance.
Q: Do you actually know anybody who drives less than 3,000 miles in three months?
A: One guy. He drives about 200 miles a month, and takes the public transit system the rest of the time.
Q: So this guy should change his oil, even though it only has 600 miles on it?
A: You never know what could have happened to the oil while it was just sitting there. It's cheap insurance.
Q: At 200 miles a month, wouldn't it be cheaper to just rent a car?
A: We're getting off topic here.
Q: My owner's manual doesn't say anything about 3,000-mile oil changes. It says to go longer than that.
A: Car manufacturers are in the business of selling cars, and they believe if they can make your engine wear out prematurely, you'll go back to them for another car. The 3,000-mile interval is cheap insurance against this.
Q: Well, the car has an oil life monitor that tells me when to change the oil. Can't I go by that?
A: How can the car possibly know what's going on in the oil? They make those things go too long for the same reason they print inflated numbers in the owner's manual.
Q: Actually, I think they use a complex mathematical model tailored to the specific engine and oil type, which uses input from the variables measured by the engine computer such as RPM and operating temperature.
A: And you TRUST them?
Q: But if the engine fails prematurely, doesn't the manufacturer eat the cost of repairs during the warranty period?
A: Oh but it won't fail until the car is outside the warranty period.
Q: So how is that a premature failure?
A: It won't be TOO far outside the warranty period, you can be sure of that.
Q: Okay, so car manufacturers carefully craft their oil recommendations specifically so that the engine fails after the warranty period so they don't have to pay for it, but not too far after the warranty period so consumers will come back to them for another car, instead of buying from a competitor that doesn't yank them around like this?
A: They ALL do it. And the 3,000-mile interval is cheap insurance against it.
Q: You're saying that if your engine blows up with 60,000 miles on it, you'll go back to the same manufacturer for another car?
A: My engine will never blow up, because I'm using a 3,000-mile interval.
Q: Can I switch to synthetic oil?
A: Sure. Synthetics offer many technological advances, including superior viscosity stability, better extreme-temperature performance, higher levels of acid neutralization ability, more shear strength, improved film cling, and of course slight improvements in fuel economy and horsepower in some engines. Great stuff, synthetics.
Q: So how often should I change the synthetic oil?
A: Every three months or 3,000 miles. Even with synthetics, it's cheap insurance.
Q: Um, the stuff costs two to three times what conventional oil costs. That's cheap insurance?
A: Compared to how much it would cost to buy an engine, it's cheap.
Q: What evidence is there to show that running extended drains on synthetic oil will cause the engine to fail?
A: I don't have any, because I've never had an engine fail, because I change the oil every 3,000 miles. Now that's what I call cheap insurance!
Q: Uncountable studies performed by auto manufacturers, oil producers, industry analysts, and research groups like the SAE, both here and in Europe, have shown that synthetic oil can hold up for extended drain intervals. Why shouldn't I have some faith in this body of evidence?
A: You don't see anything on the bottle about extended drains, do you? They all say to follow manufacturer recommendations.
Q: You don't think that has anything to do with the litigous attitude in the U.S., and the oil companies' efforts to cover their butts from every idiot who runs his oil-burning 1986 Dodge Caravan completely dry?
A: What?
Q: Never mind. Amsoil says right on the bottle that you can run extended intervals.
A: And you TRUST them??
Q: Er, I thought you said--
A: Best to stick with 3,000-mile intervals. Cheap insurance.
Q: Isn't it wasteful to get rid of perfectly good synthetic oil at 3,000 miles?
A: There's plenty of oil to be had, and it's cheap insurance.
Q: There's plenty of beer to be had, but you don't drink half the bottle and pour the rest down the drain.
A: Oil isn't beer.
Q: Here's a hypothetical question. Each year, Americans consume 640 million gallons of motor oil. Even if we just went from your 3,000-mile interval to a 5,000-mile interval, that'd save 256 million gallons of oil. Most estimates for oil recycling peg the amount of recycled motor oil at no better than half, so even with the most generous estimate we'd still save 128 million gallons of oil pollution. In other words, if everyone increased their oil change interval by 2,000 miles, we'd save the nation the equivalent of 13 Exxon Valdez accidents each year. Isn't that a worthwhile goal?
A: MY oil gets recycled.
Q: That's not the point. If you use a quality oil, it seems like you could extend your drain intervals by a little bit, helping to reduce pollution and lower your operating costs at the same time.
A: I've never lost an engine using the 3,000-mile interval.
Q: You've never lost an engine using a 5,000-mile interval either.
A: Look, it's just cheap insurance.
Q: Do you wear a helmet in the shower? After all, there are over 110,000 bathtub and shower injuries per year. At 30 bucks, a helmet would be cheap insurance.
A:
Q: Hello?
A: Go away.
3000 Mile Oil Changes
#3
04-29-2004, 10:54 AM
Postmaster
The 3,000 mile oil change has been around since before most of us learned how to drive. So let's assume that is a constant. The question we have to ask is why do modern engines last so much longer?
Back in the 50s and 60s a car with over 100K on the engine was unusual and something of a poster child for excellent maintenance and or durability. I have read old magazine articles from the 20s and 30s where after a long trip(1K miles) the routine oil change included opening up the engine block and literally hosing out all the junk. Things have changed eh.
Now engines routinely last well over 100K with 200K and even more not being unusual. So what has changed? Most cars go much longer than 3,000 mile changes so maybe old oil gives longer life to engines? Probably not. What has changed is that engine machining techniques, materials and smog controls(yes smog controls help cleanliness of engines) have all contributed to engines that are much better than what we could buy in the 50s, 60, 70s, 80s even 90s. Oil has also become light years better than the goo we used to buy. Check SAE and API requirements to see the vast difference in vaporization, viscosity change, temperature tolerance etc required of all modern engine oils. Dino now is fine stuff, Synthetic is icing on the cake.
So yes 3,000 mile changes are insurance, not sure if it is wise insurance anymore, but you certainly will not hurt an engine by changing the oil frequently. The military has a program going now where they are extending their drain intervals, they no longer believe in the "3,000 mile oil change" and they deal with very expensive high performance engines in many cases. They are also promoting oil analysis to justify extended drains. Do a search for AOAP for lots of interesting reading and commentary on how the traditional 3,000 mile change is a waste of limited resources etc.
Modern engines and oils allow owners to safely go way beyond the 3,000 mile change. Synthetics almost all promote extended drain intervals on their web pages. They also carefully say change per manufacturer's requirements during warranty periods. Incidentally I think this means 5,000 miles or more per mfg requirements. So yes the syn makers do recommend extended drains but they also CYA.
I have owned several cars than ran well over 100K on dino with extended drains even with idiot caused damage. I know of many cars that were horribly abused but the engines kept running well past 100K, so 100K is nothing now a days and 3K changes had little to do with it. Most of my cars I sold before 100K but almost all of them since 1980 have run synthetic at 5K to even 15K change intervals. I quit doing 15K changes with syn because it didn't feel right and the oil color looked funny. Now all my vehicles run on syn and change at the mfg "normal" duty change intervals(even though not all my driving is normal), usually 7.5K. This is not proof that extended drains are good, but I have never worn out any engine of any sort(lawnmowers to tow vehicles).
My current daily driver is a SBC which just turned 100K(7 years) on Mobil 1 and I fully expect to get at least another 100K and maybe even keep this car as a collector in maybe 10 more years. My truck which tows, gets only about 5,000 miles on it a year on syn. So I guess this means I get less than 3,000 in 3 months right? Ditto my wife's van.
Recycling oil is good, not using crude oil is better. And many of us think of recycled oil as junk or just fuel for oil burners. So recycling does not save us the high quality lube oil we all love. If we really trusted recycled ouil, why do we have all these discussions about which brand of premium oil is best? Using oil wisely, including "proper" change intervals is what keeps us in high quality lubes.
As always, the wisest choice in oil changes is to change regularly(whatever miles within reason) using a good quality oil. Most of us are fine following the mfg recommendations, be sure to read the fine print about what is considered "normal", not what you would think. Going 3,000 miles certainly is not bad maintenance but it may not be the necessary with the high quality of oils and engines we have today, the Army and testing labs are convinced of this. I really love modern engines and oils, they are SOOO much better than what we had years ago.
Just my opinions, I am not an oil expert but have been reading plenty about it since the 60s and using it since the 70s.
Jim Henderson
Back in the 50s and 60s a car with over 100K on the engine was unusual and something of a poster child for excellent maintenance and or durability. I have read old magazine articles from the 20s and 30s where after a long trip(1K miles) the routine oil change included opening up the engine block and literally hosing out all the junk. Things have changed eh.
Now engines routinely last well over 100K with 200K and even more not being unusual. So what has changed? Most cars go much longer than 3,000 mile changes so maybe old oil gives longer life to engines? Probably not. What has changed is that engine machining techniques, materials and smog controls(yes smog controls help cleanliness of engines) have all contributed to engines that are much better than what we could buy in the 50s, 60, 70s, 80s even 90s. Oil has also become light years better than the goo we used to buy. Check SAE and API requirements to see the vast difference in vaporization, viscosity change, temperature tolerance etc required of all modern engine oils. Dino now is fine stuff, Synthetic is icing on the cake.
So yes 3,000 mile changes are insurance, not sure if it is wise insurance anymore, but you certainly will not hurt an engine by changing the oil frequently. The military has a program going now where they are extending their drain intervals, they no longer believe in the "3,000 mile oil change" and they deal with very expensive high performance engines in many cases. They are also promoting oil analysis to justify extended drains. Do a search for AOAP for lots of interesting reading and commentary on how the traditional 3,000 mile change is a waste of limited resources etc.
Modern engines and oils allow owners to safely go way beyond the 3,000 mile change. Synthetics almost all promote extended drain intervals on their web pages. They also carefully say change per manufacturer's requirements during warranty periods. Incidentally I think this means 5,000 miles or more per mfg requirements. So yes the syn makers do recommend extended drains but they also CYA.
I have owned several cars than ran well over 100K on dino with extended drains even with idiot caused damage. I know of many cars that were horribly abused but the engines kept running well past 100K, so 100K is nothing now a days and 3K changes had little to do with it. Most of my cars I sold before 100K but almost all of them since 1980 have run synthetic at 5K to even 15K change intervals. I quit doing 15K changes with syn because it didn't feel right and the oil color looked funny. Now all my vehicles run on syn and change at the mfg "normal" duty change intervals(even though not all my driving is normal), usually 7.5K. This is not proof that extended drains are good, but I have never worn out any engine of any sort(lawnmowers to tow vehicles).
My current daily driver is a SBC which just turned 100K(7 years) on Mobil 1 and I fully expect to get at least another 100K and maybe even keep this car as a collector in maybe 10 more years. My truck which tows, gets only about 5,000 miles on it a year on syn. So I guess this means I get less than 3,000 in 3 months right? Ditto my wife's van.
Recycling oil is good, not using crude oil is better. And many of us think of recycled oil as junk or just fuel for oil burners. So recycling does not save us the high quality lube oil we all love. If we really trusted recycled ouil, why do we have all these discussions about which brand of premium oil is best? Using oil wisely, including "proper" change intervals is what keeps us in high quality lubes.
As always, the wisest choice in oil changes is to change regularly(whatever miles within reason) using a good quality oil. Most of us are fine following the mfg recommendations, be sure to read the fine print about what is considered "normal", not what you would think. Going 3,000 miles certainly is not bad maintenance but it may not be the necessary with the high quality of oils and engines we have today, the Army and testing labs are convinced of this. I really love modern engines and oils, they are SOOO much better than what we had years ago.
Just my opinions, I am not an oil expert but have been reading plenty about it since the 60s and using it since the 70s.
Jim Henderson
#5
04-29-2004, 11:20 AM
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#6
04-29-2004, 11:45 AM
Post Fiend
#7
04-29-2004, 12:11 PM
You guys know where I square on this one.
IMO, the majority of 3,000 mile oil drains are wasted time, money and resources.
Seems no matter what emperical data is presented, some folks will never change their mind. And, that is OK. Oil choice, filter choice, drain intervals, etc. are all CHOICES we are allowed to make.
I am one who puts stock in analytical testing and results. When the UOA numbers show oil is still good (heck, REAL good) at 5,000 miles, what is one going to say? "I see the numbers but I still feel like it should be changed".
Analogies would be:
"I see my brake pads are not near being worn out, and I'm not having any problem stopping, but I think they should be replaced anyways".
"I see there is about 1/2 the original tread left, and braking and wet weather handling are fine, but I feel like I need to replace my tires anyways."
After all is said and done, I STILL don't get it....cheap insurance against what???
I know... I know.... "6 qts and a filter; 15 bucks and I can feel good knowing I'm running good fresh oil".
BUT...all that is known is you have fresh(er) oil. Unless you do a UOA, you don't know anything other than that. You could change your oil every 500 miles and unless you do a UOA, you could still have a premature failure because of the "comfort factor" that came with 3K drain intervals.
To me, the TRUE cheap insurance is 5-6,000 mile drain intervals and a UOA every 3rd or 4th change.
I then will know that my oil is fine, my air cleaner system is working properly, no abnormal wear metals, no problems with moisture contamination, no problem with fuel contamination, etc.
Ah, but to each his own. It would be a boring world if we were all the same!
IMO, the majority of 3,000 mile oil drains are wasted time, money and resources.
Seems no matter what emperical data is presented, some folks will never change their mind. And, that is OK. Oil choice, filter choice, drain intervals, etc. are all CHOICES we are allowed to make.
I am one who puts stock in analytical testing and results. When the UOA numbers show oil is still good (heck, REAL good) at 5,000 miles, what is one going to say? "I see the numbers but I still feel like it should be changed".
Analogies would be:
"I see my brake pads are not near being worn out, and I'm not having any problem stopping, but I think they should be replaced anyways".
"I see there is about 1/2 the original tread left, and braking and wet weather handling are fine, but I feel like I need to replace my tires anyways."
After all is said and done, I STILL don't get it....cheap insurance against what???
I know... I know.... "6 qts and a filter; 15 bucks and I can feel good knowing I'm running good fresh oil".
BUT...all that is known is you have fresh(er) oil. Unless you do a UOA, you don't know anything other than that. You could change your oil every 500 miles and unless you do a UOA, you could still have a premature failure because of the "comfort factor" that came with 3K drain intervals.
To me, the TRUE cheap insurance is 5-6,000 mile drain intervals and a UOA every 3rd or 4th change.
I then will know that my oil is fine, my air cleaner system is working properly, no abnormal wear metals, no problems with moisture contamination, no problem with fuel contamination, etc.
Ah, but to each his own. It would be a boring world if we were all the same!
Trending Topics
#8
04-29-2004, 01:08 PM
I can't even count anymore how many threads and debates I've read on the issue of oil drain intervals, and more and more I get the feeling that changing one's oil is not done soley on the basis of necessity. I really think that a lot of it is mental, and that some people just need to do something - anything - good for their Ford Truck every couple of months, and spending a few minutes and dollars changing the oil and filter fulfills this craving. 
#10
04-29-2004, 01:28 PM
#11
04-29-2004, 03:11 PM
Post Fiend
So it's a joke. It still had a point.
There's one thing that UOA's dont test for, as far as I know. That is sludge. When they can test used oil for sludge buildup on the bottom of the oil pan and black sootey crap built up 1/2 inch thick on the valve covers, then I'll put my faith in UOA's and extended drain intervals. Until then, I'll stick with my 3000 mile oil changes and diesel rated Mystik JT-8 10w30.
There's one thing that UOA's dont test for, as far as I know. That is sludge. When they can test used oil for sludge buildup on the bottom of the oil pan and black sootey crap built up 1/2 inch thick on the valve covers, then I'll put my faith in UOA's and extended drain intervals. Until then, I'll stick with my 3000 mile oil changes and diesel rated Mystik JT-8 10w30.
#12
04-29-2004, 03:19 PM
Originally Posted by rusty70f100
There's one thing that UOA's dont test for, as far as I know. That is sludge. When they can test used oil for sludge buildup on the bottom of the oil pan and black sootey crap built up 1/2 inch thick on the valve covers, then I'll put my faith in UOA's and extended drain intervals. Until then, I'll stick with my 3000 mile oil changes and diesel rated Mystik JT-8 10w30.
Sorry, but you tee'd that one up so nice for me, I couldn't resist.
You can blast me now.
#13
04-29-2004, 04:35 PM
Post Fiend
#15
05-01-2004, 01:58 PM
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Originally Posted by jimandmandy
What is so sacred about 3000? Why not 1000 miles? Is that insurance not cheap enough? My high school auto shop teacher (in the 1960's) was a believer in 1000 mile oil changes. This is probably due to the fact that 1000 mile changes is what he remembered was normal in the 1930's.
Jim
Jim
I change at 5000 miles